EPCOT Big changes coming to EPCOT's Future World?

[UNCgolf]

More what though? The space is broken up in the way different parts wrap around. You can go sit outside in the center and windows offers views to that space. It does have different levels. The problem with a lot of these criticisms is that they’re contradictory.

As originally conceived CommuniCore was fairly Modern and multi-purpose, so there was a disconnect between the specific use of the space and the building. The backlash seems to be more towards just the entire notion of more contemporary and Modern design as it has been misapplied elsewhere than internally consistent criticism of a space that should be in line with those principles combined with a dash of nostalgia.

I think you're conflating criticisms from different people here. I don't think there's anything contradictory about my opinion.

I don't hate Connections; it's fine. Some of the criticisms don't make any sense to me (the idea that it should be "themed", e.g. -- themed to what, exactly?), but Disney could have easily stuck with modern/contemporary design (the right choice IMO; I'm not even sure what alternative people would want) while building a space that offered just a bit more visual/architectural interest.

It's not even close to being one of the major problems with the EPCOT overhaul (it's actually one of the better parts), but that doesn't mean it's perfect. I still maintain the space could be broken up in better ways (there's too many open flat areas stuffed full of tables and chairs, which is an ongoing problem for Disney dining), and adding some second level seating could have increased capacity too, which is needed.

If I was going to draw up a list of complaints about current EPCOT, Connections wouldn't make the list, but since it was brought up for discussion we might as well discuss it, both good and bad.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I don't hate Connections; it's fine. Some of the criticisms don't make any sense to me (the idea that it should be "themed", e.g.), but Disney could have easily stuck with modern/contemporary design (the right choice IMO) while building a space that offered a bit more visual/architectural interest.

It's still one of the better things they did as part of the overhaul, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. I'm surprised you of all people don't think they could have done a better job breaking up the space etc. -- adding some second level seating could have increased capacity too, which seems needed.

The contradiction is saying it lacks elements that are present.

Visual interest of what? For what purpose? Good design has a hierarchy. Not everything should be fighting for attention as you end IP with the sort of disordered environments to which Disney typically stands in contrast. So what purpose does this greater visual interest serve? Is it supposed to draw people into the space? Through the space? That’s not really what you want in a quick service dining venue.

I have posted plenty of criticisms of the project in this very thread. The biggest issue is that it’s just sloppy work. But I absolutely disagree with the idea that the space should have been broken up more. It’s exactly what I mean by a contradiction and reaction to other projects. Being broken up is a design concept that stands in opposition to the underlying design philosophy. Both as a building and a land, CommuniCore and Future World (and even a lot of Modernism) is about the openness space, about implying boundaries more than building them. Future World and now the neighborhoods are an experience of the monumental, not a series of cozy little spaces. The pavilions all existing as objects in space. If anything, Connections should switch to being mobile order table service so that the counter service space can become more seating and further open up sightlines to the kitchen, the literal signifier of the use of the space.

 

[HauntedPirate]

You’re just highlighting how don’t actually have a sense of a cohesive alternative. You and others are just asking for random bits and bobs, theming by clutter.

So then what is the theme of the area at this point in time? To my eye, it’s 3-4 different things. Water. Some greenery. Rusted metal. “Modern” cafeteria with an open kitchen like your local Chipotle.

It needs a complete re-do, and it’s only been open a year.

 

[UNCgolf]

The contradiction is saying it lacks elements that are present.

Visual interest of what? For what purpose? Good design has a hierarchy. Not everything should be fighting for attention as you end IP with the sort of disordered environments to which Disney typically stands in contrast. So what purpose does this greater visual interest serve? Is it supposed to draw people into the space? Through the space? That’s not really what you want in a quick service dining venue.

I have posted plenty of criticisms of the project in this very thread. The biggest issue is that it’s just sloppy work. But I absolutely disagree with the idea that the space should have been broken up more. It’s exactly what I mean by a contradiction and reaction to other projects. Being broken up is a design concept that stands in opposition to the underlying design philosophy. Both as a building and a land, CommuniCore and Future World (and even a lot of Modernism) is about the openness space, about implying boundaries more than building them. Future World and now the neighborhoods are an experience of the monumental, not a series of cozy little spaces. The pavilions all existing as objects in space. If anything, Connections should switch to being mobile order table service so that the counter service space can become more seating and further open up sightlines to the kitchen, the literal signifier of the use of the space.

I think we're talking about two separate things when we say break up the space. That was probably the wrong way for me to phrase it.

I don't mean separate it into individual rooms, nor do I think it should be less open (if anything, it could probably be more open). I'm talking about small things here and there so that there's not so much flat space of nothing but identical tables and chairs.

Maybe even something like a little variety in the style of the tables and chairs? I'm not sure that would actually work, but in places it's somewhat reminiscent of a conference room set up for standardized testing. It reminds me a little of taking the bar exam.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

The contradiction is saying it lacks elements that are present.

Visual interest of what? For what purpose? Good design has a hierarchy. Not everything should be fighting for attention as you end IP with the sort of disordered environments to which Disney typically stands in contrast. So what purpose does this greater visual interest serve? Is it supposed to draw people into the space? Through the space? That’s not really what you want in a quick service dining venue.

I have posted plenty of criticisms of the project in this very thread. The biggest issue is that it’s just sloppy work. But I absolutely disagree with the idea that the space should have been broken up more. It’s exactly what I mean by a contradiction and reaction to other projects. Being broken up is a design concept that stands in opposition to the underlying design philosophy. Both as a building and a land, CommuniCore and Future World (and even a lot of Modernism) is about the openness space, about implying boundaries more than building them. Future World and now the neighborhoods are an experience of the monumental, not a series of cozy little spaces. The pavilions all existing as objects in space. If anything, Connections should switch to being mobile order table service so that the counter service space can become more seating and further open up sightlines to the kitchen, the literal signifier of the use of the space.

While I am sure the execution has room for improvement, I generally think the concept they were going for was at least the correct one for the location and its purpose. My impression is that they wanted to embrace the original EPCOT Center architecture with elements that were predominant in modern architecture roughly two decades before it opened. Specifically, the embrace of the open plan and the amazing large windows of the Communicore buildings to create a sense of free circulation of light, air, and movement as well as erasing the barrier between the interior and the exterior. That openness is reinforced by the kitchens that are open and visible to the dining area. Finally, they used clean, bright colours such as white that are softened by the use of organic materials (wood) and artwork (the mural).

One reason I have been pushing a little to see what people would prefer is that, were I to come up with a concept for the whole central spine, it would have been to do exactly what I assume they have tried to do here: restore the original architecture while leaning a little into 1950s-60s modernism that is experiencing something of a resurgence. I particularly wince when people say Celestial Park is very Epcot-like and shows what they should have done with the space as the style of that area is entirely inappropriate for the former Future World.

I think you made a very good point, though, that the complaints are probably lumping this in with contemporary design elsewhere such as the hotels and the patched-together Main Street Emporium when this is a different case.

 

[Bocabear]

Ultimately, Connections to me is fine...The store could and should have been more interesting as well as the Club not-so-cool. Glad it is there...glad they saved this beautiful building and brought it back to it's architectural intent...
The rest of the spine is the real mess... They renamed areas but then did nothing to reinforce them... The front of the park, now that it is no longer Futureworld and instead 3 different neighborhoods seems to make ven less sense... World celebration does not feel like a celebration.... World Nature has two [avilions and a water walk-through that is sort of off the path.... with imagination which is somehow part of another neighborhood but right next door... World Discovery featuring Space, a shuttered pavilion, a movie-themed rollercoaster, and an automobile pavilion and car showroom... Maybe all the additional buildings they were going to build in the central spine would have helped it all make sense? at this point we have absolutely no idea what even those buildings were going to be... just circular structures scattered around.... It is a mess though.... and honestly Connections is the least of it's problems.

 

[WDWFREAK53]

Ultimately, Connections to me is fine...The store could and should have been more interesting as well as the Club not-so-cool. Glad it is there...glad they saved this beautiful building and brought it back to it's architectural intent...
The rest of the spine is the real mess... They renamed areas but then did nothing to reinforce them... The front of the park, now that it is no longer Futureworld and instead 3 different neighborhoods seems to make ven less sense... World celebration does not feel like a celebration.... World Nature has two [avilions and a water walk-through that is sort of off the path.... with imagination which is somehow part of another neighborhood but right next door... World Discovery featuring Space, a shuttered pavilion, a movie-themed rollercoaster, and an automobile pavilion and car showroom... Maybe all the additional buildings they were going to build in the central spine would have helped it all make sense? at this point we have absolutely no idea what even those buildings were going to be... just circular structures scattered around.... It is a mess though.... and honestly Connections is the least of it's problems.

Oddly enough, the way you broke it down made it make sense to me.
World Discovery has a space themed pavilion based on human achievements, a vehicle based pavilion (which is getting a new overlay), and a pavilion themed to traveling back to the beginning where it all started. These all somewhat go together (now if they actually get the WoL to also coexist into the tech-filled side it will all feel cohesive).

Nature has air (soarin), land (Living with the Land), and Seas (Seas with Nemo) not to mention how they all connect with Journey of Water.

Imagination is the outlier. When the tabletop was there, a pink/purple pathway led to it...maybe that would've somehow connected Imagination.

The spine is just a mess.

 

[UNCgolf]

While I am sure the execution has room for improvement, I generally think the concept they were going for was at least the correct one for the location and its purpose. My impression is that they wanted to embrace the original EPCOT Center architecture with elements that were predominant in modern architecture roughly two decades before it opened. Specifically, the embrace of the open plan and the amazing large windows of the Communicore buildings to create a sense of free circulation of light, air, and movement as well as erasing the barrier between the interior and the exterior. That openness is reinforced by the kitchens that are open and visible to the dining area. Finally, they used clean, bright colours such as white that are softened by the use of organic materials (wood) and artwork (the mural).

One reason I have been pushing a little to see what people would prefer is that, were I to come up with a concept for the whole central spine, it would have been to do exactly what I assume they have tried to do here: restore the original architecture while leaning a little into 1950s-60s modernism that is experiencing something of a resurgence. I particularly wince when people say Celestial Park is very Epcot-like and shows what they should have done with the space as the style of that area is entirely inappropriate for the former Future World.

I think you made a very good point, though, that the complaints are probably lumping this in with contemporary design elsewhere such as the hotels and the patched-together Main Street Emporium when this is a different case.

I 100% agree with this -- they used the right concept.

My issues with Connections are minor overall (as I said, I think it's one of the best parts of the overhaul) and would involve relatively small changes/additions as opposed to some kind of major structural overhaul.

My tendency is to critique even things I like, so I probably come across as more negative about things than I actually am.

 

[lazyboy97o]

So then what is the theme of the area at this point in time? To my eye, it’s 3-4 different things. Water. Some greenery. Rusted metal. “Modern” cafeteria with an open kitchen like your local Chipotle.

It needs a complete re-do, and it’s only been open a year.

Those aren’t themes. World Celebration isn’t a clear idea, but being a rather contemporary space isn’t something new. Future World was also rather contemporary. CommuniCore didn’t feature even the touches of Post-Modernism that is present in the forms of the pavilions themselves.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I think we're talking about two separate things when we say break up the space. That was probably the wrong way for me to phrase it.

I don't mean separate it into individual rooms, nor do I think it should be less open (if anything, it could probably be more open). I'm talking about small things here and there so that there's not so much flat space of nothing but identical tables and chairs.

Maybe even something like a little variety in the style of the tables and chairs? I'm not sure that would actually work, but in places it's somewhat reminiscent of a conference room set up for standardized testing. It reminds me a little of taking the bar exam.

That’s the right phrasing. Separation of space can be implied.

The big uniform space aligns with the notion of monumentality. Introducing different types of furniture and fixtures would mean introducing more eclecticism that contradicts the monumentality.

The land was organized around big spaces. The area development is in many ways hurt by being too many different ideas. The whole CommuniCore project falls flat because what was designed as a singular space with a design language that existed across spaces and uses is now a mishmash of similar but not quite the same aesthetics.

 

[UNCgolf]

That’s the right phrasing. Separation of space can be implied.

The big uniform space aligns with the notion of monumentality. Introducing different types of furniture and fixtures would mean introducing more eclecticism that contradicts the monumentality.

The land was organized around big spaces. The area development is in many ways hurt by being too many different ideas. The whole CommuniCore project falls flat because what was designed as a singular space with a design language that existed across spaces and uses is now a mishmash of similar but not quite the same aesthetics.

Yeah, that makes sense, and is why I wasn't sure introducing variety in tables/chairs would actually work. Maybe they could have picked a different style of table to use across the board? The tables (moreso than the chairs, although I don't love the chairs either) just look/feel kind of... I don't know. I'm struggling to put this into words. They kind of evoke someone pulling a stack out of a storage space because they're going to have more people than expected.

 

[RobbinsDad]

Yeah, that makes sense, and is why I wasn't sure introducing variety in tables/chairs would actually work. Maybe they could have picked a different style of table to use across the board? The tables (moreso than the chairs, although I don't love the chairs either) just look/feel kind of... I don't know. I'm struggling to put this into words. They kind of evoke someone pulling a stack out of a storage space because they're going to have more people than expected.

I can put it into words - they're boring as s**t, like all of World Celebration.

 

[Cmdr_Crimson]

Those aren’t themes. World Celebration isn’t a clear idea, but being a rather contemporary space isn’t something new. Future World was also rather contemporary. CommuniCore didn’t feature even the touches of Post-Modernism that is present in the forms of the pavilions themselves.

What is to "Celebrate" in World Celebration? If they went with the Project Gemini name by Discoveryland it still fits the whole front half as a section to Discover and Explore everything...

Also, so do they even list Poopers..Uh..I mean Dreamers Point on the maps or is it just Listed as World Celebration?

 

[James Alucobond]

Also, so do they even list Poopers..Uh..I mean Dreamers Point on the maps or is it just Listed as World Celebration?

They do. It's generally listed as an attraction, though obviously one without a posted wait time. However, the four other sections of the gardens go unnamed on all maps I've seen despite being named.

 

[Chef idea Mickey`=]

What is to "Celebrate" in World Celebration? If they went with the Project Gemini name by Discoveryland it still fits the whole front half as a section to Discover and Explore everything...

Also, so do they even list Poopers..Uh..I mean Dreamers Point on the maps or is it just Listed as World Celebration?

You either have to call the entire park World Celebration or World Discovery, calling it on half a part would describe that there is something there that isn't the same to the rest of the park. The whole park is to discover just like celebrating the world is basically what World Showcase is famous
famous for!

 

[Chef idea Mickey`=]

What is to "Celebrate" in World Celebration?

Walt Disney! To celebrate with Walt his Dream of Epcot at Dreamer's Point. To celebrate the existence of Epcot, existence of World Showcase all in ways because of Walt. That's my guess

 

[Chef idea Mickey`=]

Really interesting just because the Two Story Festival Building didn't happen then why the rest couldn't especially when above all the Harmonious fountains would be gone. I'm not saying the wishing tree, or festival decorations had to even though another lit up feature separate from the pillars. Note here there isn't any planters, or rust or concrete but fountains and greenery which to me would looked less college campus. If I had to choose between the pillars or these fountains it be hard but this form looks more relaxing and non or less rusty lol

 

[James Alucobond]

Really interesting just because the Two Story Festival Building didn't happen then why the rest couldn't especially when above all the Harmonious fountains would be gone. I'm not saying the wishing tree, or festival decorations had to even though another lit up feature separate from the pillars. Note here there isn't any planters, or rust or concrete but fountains and greenery which to me would looked less college campus. If I had to choose between the pillars or these fountains it be hard but this form looks more relaxing and non or less rusty lol

Part of that design is also predicated on the Project Tomorrow building being reduced in size, FYI. It wasn't just the removal of the Festival Center that interfered with the original plan.

 

[DarkMetroid567]

Weirdly fantastic discussion for this forum. Imo, a lot of the history and future discussion with EPCOT has to do with Future World being a fundamentally flawed idea for a theme park. Kinda a miracle that we have (or for some of you, had) what we have.

 

[HauntedPirate]

Weirdly fantastic discussion for this forum. Imo, a lot of the history and future discussion with EPCOT has to do with Future World being a fundamentally flawed idea for a theme park. Kinda a miracle that we have (or for some of you, had) what we have.

Good to know that your hindsight on things designed in the 1970's is a solid 20/20.