EPCOT Big changes coming to EPCOT's Future World?

[Bocabear]

You're comparing full service/table service to something that genuinely is the quick service cafeteria for the park.

I was comparing centerpiece restaurant to centerpiece restaurant... Yes I understand it is a literal cafeteria... and I have said, I do not find Connections particularly egregious...I think the bigger failure is that nothing else in this "Celebration Gardens" area...the core of the entry point into the park, reaches higher than business park or college campus cafeteria...

 

[Sir_Cliff]

I think my relation point was the fact that the Atlantic Restaurant is the main restaurant for the park core of Epic...much like Connections is the main restaurant for the park core of the front half of EPCOT.... they are similar use areas....
but yes it should always be contemporary and fit the aesthetic of the modern building... It just could have been so much more interesting.... My problem with the area is really everything else...." Celebration Gardens Corporate Business Quad" and the Communicore Hall Cafeteria and Flex Building... If those areas had been more engaging, Connections would not even be noticed as not being so "Disney"...

I think this kind of hits on why I am so curious about the alternatives suggested by critics of Connections as being too much like a modern cafeteria, contemporary corporate architecture, etc. The example of the Atlantic Restaurant just suggests more "stuff" equals more theming/more Disney, even if that busy kind of design isn't really appropriate for the original Epcot aesthetic that they have at least attempted to update.

I don't think you are claiming that aesthetic would work here, though, so that still leaves the question of what would. I have yet to see anyone specify an alternative style for those interiors without using vague concepts about being more engaging, optimistic, forward-looking, or just more Disney.

Oddly enough, Electric Umbrella (and before it, Stargate), Odyssey, Cosmic Rays, Tomorrowland Terrace have the fitting aesthetic I think.

Well, this is the one alternative people suggest! That, to me at least, seems like nostalgia talking. I can't imagine what people would have said if this really re-opened looking like a freshened up Tomorrowland Terrace or Cosmic Rays.

 

[Disstevefan1]

I think this kind of hits on why I am so curious about the alternatives suggested by critics of Connections as being too much like a modern cafeteria, contemporary corporate architecture, etc. The example of the Atlantic Restaurant just suggests more "stuff" equals more theming/more Disney, even if that busy kind of design isn't really appropriate for the original Epcot aesthetic that they have at least attempted to update.

I don't think you are claiming that aesthetic would work here, though, so that still leaves the question of what would. I have yet to see anyone specify an alternative style for those interiors without using vague concepts about being more engaging, optimistic, forward-looking, or just more Disney.


Well, this is the one alternative people suggest! That, to me at least, seems like nostalgia talking. I can't imagine what people would have said if this really re-opened looking like a freshened up Tomorrowland Terrace or Cosmic Rays.

Space 220 seems very "EPCOTy" to me.

 

[HauntedPirate]

Imagine if they had updated the Electric Umbrella with some new lighting technology, color palatte, and a water/thunderstorm motif to tie into JoW on the opposite side (with maybe some playful warnings about electricity and water and umbrellas).

Nah. Never would have worked.

 

[Andrew C]

I think this kind of hits on why I am so curious about the alternatives suggested by critics of Connections as being too much like a modern cafeteria, contemporary corporate architecture, etc. The example of the Atlantic Restaurant just suggests more "stuff" equals more theming/more Disney, even if that busy kind of design isn't really appropriate for the original Epcot aesthetic that they have at least attempted to update.

I don't think you are claiming that aesthetic would work here, though, so that still leaves the question of what would. I have yet to see anyone specify an alternative style for those interiors without using vague concepts about being more engaging, optimistic, forward-looking, or just more Disney.

You realize that most of us here are not architects, designers or imagineers, right? Instead, we walk into a space, and it can either feel right or it doesn't. It is the job of these groups to make it feel right for us. My expectation is for Disney to give me something that makes me go wow, or surprises me, or makes me say, "I would have never thought of that, but this is awesome." I don't expect to walk into a space at WDW and have a feeling or boredom or feel like I am just at any other place. Is that really unreasonable? I don't think so.

 

[James Alucobond]

You realize that most of us here are not architects, designers or imagineers, right? Instead, we walk into a space, and it can either feel right or it doesn't. It is the job of these groups to make it feel right for us. My expectation is for Disney to give me something that makes me go wow, or surprises me, or makes me say, "I would have never thought of that, but this is awesome." I don't expect to walk into a space at WDW and have a feeling or boredom or feel like I am just at any other place. Is that really unreasonable? I don't think so.

I doubt people would get much pushback if they phrased it like the second part of your statement (e.g. looking for a surprise factor, content, or focal point that's lacking). The issue is that people do show up and comment on the architecture and design, so others are obviously going to question that; claiming ignorance of those subjects ex post facto doesn't mean people were in the wrong to respond directly. Also, that we're in the Electric Umbrella deification phase of this topic is nuts.

 

[Bocabear]

Deification of Electric Umbrella..... lol Let the merch begin! lol

 

[UNCgolf]

I doubt people would get much pushback if they phrased it like the second part of your statement (e.g. looking for a surprise factor, content, or focal point that's lacking). The issue is that people do show up and comment on the architecture and design, so others are obviously going to question that; claiming ignorance of those subjects ex post facto doesn't mean people were in the wrong to respond directly. Also, that we're in the Electric Umbrella deification phase of this topic is nuts.

I would love to have Electric Umbrella back instead of Connections -- but, unlike a lot of other things from Disney's past that I preferred, this particular one is absolutely 100% nostalgia. For EPCOT specifically and also that late 80s/early 90s aesthetic in general because I was a kid.

If I had no childhood connection to it I can't imagine looking at the interior aesthetic of the Electric Umbrella and thinking it would be a good fit as something built today (well, unless they were building something intentionally themed towards that era!)

That said, aesthetic aside, I do think Electric Umbrella was a more interesting space at a base level because it had more than one floor, offered a nice combination of both inside and outdoor seating, and did a bit more to break up space overall. Connections would have benefitted from some second floor seating at the very least.

 

[osian]

That said, aesthetic aside, I do think Electric Umbrella was a more interesting space at a base level because it had more than one floor, offered a nice combination of both inside and outdoor seating, and did a bit more to break up space overall. Connections would have benefitted from some second floor seating at the very least.

Indeed, I think that's what I was getting at. De-90s the colour and neon and I think you have a good internal structure that is useful, fits the existing design language, and is interesting. I don't know how the capacity of Connections compares with Electric Umbrella but the upper floor added at least some interest and a nice alternative space.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Imagine if they had updated the Electric Umbrella with some new lighting technology, color palatte, and a water/thunderstorm motif to tie into JoW on the opposite side (with maybe some playful warnings about electricity and water and umbrellas).

Nah. Never would have worked.

It wouldn’t have. It would make no sense. It would require reworking Journey of Water to be a central theme that cuts across the area.

 

[osian]

It wouldn’t have. It would make no sense. It would require reworking Journey of Water to be a central theme that cuts across the area.

And I think they should stay away from new lighting technology for the moment.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Electric Unbrella was a lousy design. It did not have good bones. Like so much of the Innoventions work it was dark and poorly laid out. It had to have a mezzanine shoved into it because it didn’t really have enough space, just making it all the more cramped.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

You realize that most of us here are not architects, designers or imagineers, right? Instead, we walk into a space, and it can either feel right or it doesn't. It is the job of these groups to make it feel right for us. My expectation is for Disney to give me something that makes me go wow, or surprises me, or makes me say, "I would have never thought of that, but this is awesome." I don't expect to walk into a space at WDW and have a feeling or boredom or feel like I am just at any other place. Is that really unreasonable? I don't think so.

I certainly do understand just not liking a space without necessarily being able to articulate why.

I guess what interests me about a lot of the criticism of especially Connections/Creations is that it mirrors the kind of criticism EPCOT Center faced back when it first opened. Namely, that it wasn't as fun or whimsical as MK and also that it was more corporate-driven. In this case, though, it is often being articulated as an argument that Epcot needs to go back to that version that faced those criticisms (which I don't think were justified, BTW).

The other aspect that interests me is that people seem to have expectations of what a store or quick service restaurant at Epcot should be that I don't really see anywhere else. My impression is that many people's only standard for what everything in what was Future World should look like is mind-blowing. I wonder whether part of this comes from the way in which the original park was so quickly dismantled and mishandled such that the early version has developed a mythical status for many that nothing they can really do will ever live up to.

While I understand that it might just not be appealing to some people, at the end of the day I think there are limits to how out-of-this-world a high-volume quick service restaurant is going to be based on what it needs to do. It is telling that as points of comparison people keep citing much smaller, much more expensive sit-down restaurants. It is also telling that others argue it should go back to something like Electric Umbrella that, as has been noted, looks just like a movie theatre concession area from the 1990s and not something that no-one had been capable of imagining before it opened.

 

[UNCgolf]

Electric Unbrella was a lousy design. It did not have good bones. Like so much of the Innoventions work it was dark and poorly laid out. It had to have a mezzanine shoved into it because it didn’t really have enough space, just making it all the more cramped.

It was definitely too dark and it certainly wasn't some kind of ideal design.

Connections is basically just a big open cafeteria, though. It needed more. As I said above, even if the actual layout was poor, breaking up space, a second floor, indoor/outdoor seating, etc. is all better than what's offered at Connections. And that's not because I'm praising EU as something great.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Connections is basically just a big open cafeteria, though. It needed more. As I said above, even if the actual layout was poor, breaking up space, a second floor, indoor/outdoor seating, etc. is all better than what's offered at Connections. And that's not because I'm praising EU as something great.

More what though? The space is broken up in the way different parts wrap around. You can go sit outside in the center and windows offers views to that space. It does have different levels. The problem with a lot of these criticisms is that they’re contradictory.

As originally conceived CommuniCore was fairly Modern and multi-purpose, so there was a disconnect between the specific use of the space and the building. The backlash seems to be more towards just the entire notion of more contemporary and Modern design as it has been misapplied elsewhere than internally consistent criticism of a space that should be in line with those principles combined with a dash of nostalgia.

 

[bpiper]

Today's Epcot ticket price is $169. (I know most don't pay that, but it is the established price). For that kind of money, I want to have visual eye candy. I want a theme. Something unique, not bland.

I don't want to see airport concourses.
I don't want to see a college cafeteria.
I don't want to see a Target store.
I don't want to see a corporate office park with loud annoying music playing.
I don't want to see a Hall that is decorated by the amount of money spent putting on a High School play.

I want something for my $169 that I can't get somewhere else. All those things can be had somewhere else. Mostly for FREE

I blame cost cutting for all of this to prop up the streaming service. It started to got out of hand when they did the renovation of OKW. Took out all the theming from the rooms except for the Key West nautical chart picture.... Every room renovation since has been de-themed. They use sticker (looking at you, Contemporary) and pictures to give theming... For what they charge for hotel prices, they shouldn't look like a Courtyard with some Disney cartoons on the wall.

AKL is our 2nd favorite resort. It's scheduled to go under a major room refurb this fall. I shudder to think of how the room will be de-themed in this refurb. Marriot with animals....

When WE didn't push back on this cost cutting, Disney saw it as a green light to continue this cheapening. The WDW ATM machine was running low on cash so Disney started doing EVERYTHING to keep it going.

Epcot spline redesign started before Covid and seemed to have healthy ideas and budget, but when Covid hit and they were hemorrhaging money, I believe they pivoted to the cheapest design that they could get away with.

We usually go 3 times a year, but at this point I would be down to 1 and renting out the rest of the points, but the significant other is popping pixie dust pills like M&M's and won't downgrade. So she is going three times and I am only going twice and wish it was only one.

According to Touringplans, spring break crowds were down 40% to 50% over normal...


End rant.

 

[McMickeyWorld]

I thought the Mickey figures and the floor design with Walt’s EPCOT layout were in poor taste, but I do think the design is philosophically justifiable and aligns with the original EPCOT. I liked that they tried to go further with customized design, and I would’ve preferred if they had integrated more screens with interesting graphics about the themes of the pavilions. I’ll always stand by the original Festival Pavilion and the original pathway layout—I think it would’ve felt more natural. We may like or dislike what’s currently in style, but it’s undeniable that these areas have always been on trend.

 

[HauntedPirate]

It wouldn’t have. It would make no sense. It would require reworking Journey of Water to be a central theme that cuts across the area.

Maybe they could have added a fountain in the middle?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Maybe they could have added a fountain in the middle?

You’re just highlighting how don’t actually have a sense of a cohesive alternative. You and others are just asking for random bits and bobs, theming by clutter.

 

[UNCgolf]

More what though? The space is broken up in the way different parts wrap around. You can go sit outside in the center and windows offers views to that space. It does have different levels. The problem with a lot of these criticisms is that they’re contradictory.

As originally conceived CommuniCore was fairly Modern and multi-purpose, so there was a disconnect between the specific use of the space and the building. The backlash seems to be more towards just the entire notion of more contemporary and Modern design as it has been misapplied elsewhere than internally consistent criticism of a space that should be in line with those principles combined with a dash of nostalgia.

I think you're conflating criticisms from different people here. I don't think there's anything contradictory about my opinion.

I don't hate Connections; it's fine. Some of the criticisms don't make any sense to me (the idea that it should be "themed", e.g. -- themed to what, exactly?), but Disney could have easily stuck with modern/contemporary design (the right choice IMO; I'm not even sure what alternative people would want) while building a space that offered just a bit more visual/architectural interest.

It's not even close to being one of the major problems with the EPCOT overhaul (it's actually one of the better parts), but that doesn't mean it's perfect. I still maintain the space could be broken up in better ways (there's too many open flat areas stuffed full of tables and chairs, which is an ongoing problem for Disney dining), and adding some second level seating could have increased capacity too, which is needed.

If I was going to draw up a list of complaints about current EPCOT, Connections wouldn't make the list, but since it was brought up for discussion we might as well discuss it, both good and bad.