Timon

I would hope they add live entertainment back into Liberty Square. I believe they cut the Liberty Square Fire and Drum Corp...I never got to see them personally but Liberty Square just seems like dead space with so much potential.

I'm surprised they didn't fix the Fuente de la Fortuna when they fixed the stage there. (By the way, on my last trip I sought out all of the Caribbean Plaza fountains and found all of them. They're really out of the way, which is why I'm not surprised they cut them, but it would add so much to the space if they were back. My personal favorite is the one in the courtyard off to the side of the entrance of the Pirates queue. I don't have any pictures since it was dark when I saw it, but it was a pleasant place.)

The various possibilities for the two Liberty Sq. open spaces could be amazing.

"El Pirata y El Perico/parts of Pecos Bills" sounds like a dining room rehab. That covers two flower pot converted fountains, keep your fingers crossed.

Did you ever see the Mile Long Bar which was the far left portion of Pecos Bill service counter. There used to be a dividing wall and the Buff, Max & Melvin were overlooking the Mile Long Bar. Every time the Bears Theater doors opened they would put on a little skit. It would be great to add them back into the Pecos Bill Restaurant somewhere. I could see a short skit every 30 minutes and freeze the other 25 minutes except for a Melvin sneeze or eye blink just to fake people out.

I believe it was the Passport 2 Dreams blog that mentioned this space was meant to have been another food location that was cut just from construction just before the park opened. Nice overlay! I didn't realize the potential that space had. I'm a fan of the intricate and secluded pathways but save for a few areas, they seem to have been left out of the MK's design due to the larger amount of people. (There's talk of gutting some shops in Liberty Square to allow for more crowd space.) However, a building like that would work since it wouldn't be taking up existing pathway space.

By the way, there are now construction walls around El Pirata y El Perico/parts of Pecos Bills. Perhaps they'll fix a few missing water features there, but I doubt it.

1. Like your ideas but wonder how the crowds in that area would be? I wish they would just finish Liberty Sq. If you look to the left of HoP you will see a lot of nothing, currently filled with food carts and such. BUT, follow the paving and you'll see the space was to have shops, courtyards and a street like the right side of HoP.

I thought a Blacksmith or wood carver would be perfect,plus a shop and small food walk up. This would really help create a New Orleans Square type area for the MK like DL has.
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The space behind Liberty Tree Tavern could use the same treatment.
2. Can't to see how it turns out.
3. Never say never

1. That'd be a great idea, too. I had an idea for an expansion of Liberty Square/Fantasyland (if the space was available)...it'd include an upgraded Toad Hall (with an authentic, non-tent exterior) along with a Legend of Sleepy Hollow/Ichabod Crane dark ride. The former would be located in Fantasyland then gently transition to a Liberty Square-dark ride.

2. I guess in that case I'm thankful for how vegetated our Fantasyland looks today! I remember somebody got pictures of some Imagineering in the Fantasyland courtyard looking at plans...I really want to find that picture!

3. I guess with the current economic climate those long-term plans will be even further shortened. Unfortunately, I've heard rumblings that a "super" E like Indiana Jones or Tower of Terror will never again be built, I hope that's not true! (By the way, when you adjust the $450 million figure to inflation, it comes in at over $2 billion today. Not sure how accurate that is.)

1. A 21st Century Toad ride could be amazing. I thought building a new state-of-the-art Peter Pan in the FLE would be great. Then put another ride like Pinocchio or Alice into the old PP space.

2. For example the old carousel was on flat concrete with no planters, no Sword-in-the-Stone. So small planters are possible but someone has to see the value.

3. Sometime in the 80's America became short sighted and only accepted short term results as apposed to long views. Companies commonly planned for the next 20 years, today most companies can't stick to a 5 year plan. The Oriental Land Company still makes plans for the next 20 years. The cost of a super "E" ticket attraction spread over 20 years is easy to budget when you look at the money generated even in future dollar values. The original WDW cost $450 million! Theme park, hotels, monorails, lakes, etc. what a deal for us today! That amount nearly broke Walt Disney Production. How things have changed.

1. I had read that a new Toad Hall was among the concepts pitched for the new Fantasyland, that would have been cool to see. I also read it was odd that Mr. Toad's Wild Ride was installed, as it was a significant upgrade from the one at Disneyland (having two tracks, etc.) when Winnie the Pooh was reaching the height of its popularity. I never got a chance to ride the WDW Toad, but I enjoy the Disneyland one.

2. So there was just open space before the repaving? I always thought those were '71 originals. (If the planters you're talking about are the ones that have the trees with the blinking lights.)

3. It's interesting to read how old publications extolled how experimental and great the early WDW plans were. It's unfortunate that the long term vision isn't prevalent anymore. In the long term, it'd be much cheaper to expand and upgrade the monorail system, but nobody seems to see htat.

1. Toad was "tent" themed to match the rest of Fantasyland (Probably limited budgets really). Toad could have had planters/trees if they wanted to at any time. The Pooh shop was carved out some of the Toad ride space. The Pooh playground was directly across from Pooh on the old 20K dock/queue site. I don't know how much the queue changed between Toad & Pooh. Toad was unique with two separate tracks and a few combined scenes, it could really eat crowds compared to Pooh.

2. The FLE repaving I'm taking about happened in the 90's one section at a time. It's when the planters were added to the carousel and sword in the stone an the present Dumbo. I think it can be safely assumed most of the old pavement next to the FLE will be replaced, it's all mismatched right now.

3. The original planners thought long term and knew their ideas would pay off in the long run. Tunnels, AVAC trash system, co-generation power and air, monorails, propane powered vehicles etc. Awesome people.

From what I remember, didn't Toad have a tent facade, too? And Pooh's Thotful Spot was at one point the queue/load area for Toad side B. Unfortunately I never rode the WDW version. Do you know how the landscaping for the new Pooh area will look? I'm very excited by what I see so far.

Do you have a more specific date for the FLE re-paving? I've never heard of it before, that's very exciting news! If you noticed the odd patch of cobble stone in front of IASW, that was the site of the Skyway pylon that they paved over. Also, if you look at survey or blueprint drawings of the Fantasyland courtyard, there are symmetrical lines criss-crossing. Do you know what these are? I'll try to dig up an image.

Very interesting info on the planters, I never knew it caused so many problems, but I guess that's what they get for the whole new experimental design of the Magic Kingdom. I'd love to see what they did at Paradise Pier in which they added barrels of flowers, it really livens up the place and looks beautiful (though the Magic Kingdom seems detrimentally allergic to having flowers in their park...though lately the pictures look better.)

I think your list is pretty complete for FLE.

The tunnels don't leak as much as in the early years, probably due to better waterproofing technology. Most of Fastasyland was repaved in the 90's with what you see today - stone, pressed concrete, cobble stone and tile. Before that was truly a sea of flat ugly concrete. Anyway when the old concrete was removed a new layer of water proofing was added.

The problem is big concrete planters with moist dirt plus tree weigh a lot and must have foundations that go through the park level, through the tunnel level and then into the ground below. Very $$$$! But barrels, buckets and portable planters could make a huge difference very cheaply.

Watch the progress to the Pooh queue rehab. Originally Mr Toads entrance was made to match the style of the rest of Fanatsyland. BUT, there's no basement under the front of the ride, that's why moving Pooh's tree is no big deal and just wait for the landscaping.

Thanks for the information. I had hoped that they would continue the theme from Skyway/PPF Tower/Pinocchio's Village Haus across to the courtyard, unfortunately that doesn't look like a possibility now. I read that the new Fantasyland will have a few water features...if I had to guess this would include the Dumbo fountain, Ariel's Undersea Adventure showbuilding, Belle's meet and greet (creek), and Gaston's and Dumbo's statute/fountain. That's a good deal!

Do you know specifically what kind of planter problems they're having? Are sprinkler systems causing cracks in the concrete and such?

You are right more planters over the basement portion of Fantasyland would really make a huge difference what happens during construction remains to be seen when they finish. I think things will balance better with the new Castle wall and the lush outer area vs the more "courtyard look" of the existing Fantasyland. I wish the courtyard area looked even more like a castle courtyard - well, water wheel, stables, etc.

Regarding Adventureland - There is only a single tunnel winding under the buildings and therefore missing most of the public areas and why they could build Aladdin and the Tiki pond. FYI: That particular tunnel ends behind Pecos Bill/Tiki. Only Main St and Fantasyland have full basements and the planter problems.

That's what I had heard as well. My biggest pet peeve with Fantasyland right now is its lack of landscaping. There's no more flowers left...such leafy green bushes (by the Dumbo planters and the Mad Tea Party). This is right up there for me along with disabled water features that really makes me disappointed at WDW.

I wonder how the Tiki Room pond was held up over the tunnels, then...and how the Flying Carpets were supported from below. (It would've made a lot more sense to build them out of the way on the former Crystal Palace expansion plot.)

Chances are the new dual Dumbos will have the fountains under the cars like all the other MK style parks have.

I know WDI has been frustrated with our old Fantasyland because most of the area has a full basement under it, which means planters and fountains must have support thru to the ground below the tunnel floor. So when the present Dumbo was installed the costs were too high to add the fountain since the really ugly 1971 model never had the fountain supports. As you might guess, water and "other" fluids are a problem in the tunnel especially during construction above.

The "flash flood" scene is not at the level it was when it first opened...but I believe the geysers/streams by the exit are turned off.

I saw a fountain by Dumbo...a few waterfalls by The Little Mermaid, streams around Belle's cottage...so it looks hopeful for us. Fantasyland is pretty dry as it is...since 20K is gone and they removed the Skyway pylon fountain by It's a Small World. Thankfully the Skyway pond is here (for now). I'm still holding out for a return to Adventureland water features. Let's make it happen!

I didn't know the water was off at Big Thunder - Argh! You can hear the Magic draining out of the place! I wish our BTM had the splash down at the dino bones that DL has, it would really give waiting guests in the upper queue something to look at.

I am looking forward to the streams and falls and at least one fountain I can find on the FLE plans.

Epcot is an old haunt of mine, sadly I rarely get out there.

I never realized that older fountains just constantly used fresh water. I can't say I blame them for wanting to save some money/water by turning them off, but it's no excuse why they couldn't have spent the money to try to upgrade them. Perhaps if the rolling tarp/refurbishment project ever reaches Adventureland, they could try to fix this (and the fountains inside Pecos Bill's/El Pirata, Big Thunder Mountain, maybe add some water features to Tomorrowland, etc.)

If you want to see a park with great water features, check out EPCOT. Most of, if not all, of their fountains are running (in and out of World Showcase) and despite removing the fountain in The Land pavilion, their water features are intact.

I thought I would run this by you...one of the fountains in Caribbean Plaza (the one in the mini-plaza off to the right of the queue for Pirates) may have some hope. There is a working drinking fountain on the queue-side of that fountain, so it doesn't seem like it would take that much to have that fountain working again. Long live the Magic Kingdom water features!