Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[mmascari]

We're talking about mask mandates. Vaccine mandates. Testing mandates. "None of us should have to justify our actions... unless you're a dirty anti-vaxxer who doesn't want to wear a mask, in which case we're going to use the power of the State to force you to comply." You support parents' rights to make decisions for their children, as long as they're the exact decisions you approve of.

Opting out of all those things is an option.

Just like the power of the state keeps people from reliving themselves just anywhere for public health. That same standard applies to public settings where used lung air will be shared without option.

If someone doesn’t want to take precautions, they shouldn’t be in situations sharing that air. Nothing forces them into those areas. It’s a choice.

Eight months ago, the choice was to risk shared air in public, there wasn’t enough vaccine availability. Today, it’s reversed, there’s no reason to risk sharing air with an unvaccinated person over 12 in public.

 

[correcaminos]

Eh. We ask others to justify their actions all the time. I think it’s reasonable to ask people why they won’t let their kids see their grandparents when the grandparents are vaccinated. If the grandparent has cancer, well okay, that’s the reason. And we move on.

I disagree. People shouldn't have to justify why they haven't seen a loved one. None of your darn business really. Not upset at you (or directed at you), but that's the reality.

Think through that logic for a second.

We're talking about mask mandates. Vaccine mandates. Testing mandates. "None of us should have to justify our actions... unless you're a dirty anti-vaxxer who doesn't want to wear a mask, in which case we're going to use the power of the State to force you to comply." You support parents' rights to make decisions for their children, as long as they're the exact decisions you approve of.

View attachment 586901

You're taking what I said out of context and you know it. I clarified my statement since you did. So read above and I stand by it.

not to mention you are saying things I never did.

 

[maui2k7]

How long federal transportation will finally lift mask mandate to end for good soon for public transportation?

The current mandate is set to expire in January 2022, but no one knows if they will extend it again. Doubtful they will remove the mandate before then unless every county in the country is in the green. Fauci said this weekend he supports requirements to be vaccinated in order to fly so that is also a possibility.

 

[Virtual Toad]

Oye. A decision to visit grandparents or not to visit grandparents (which was taken out of context and blown way out of proportion to make an alternative point) has somehow morphed into a debate over judging someone’s personal choices.

I don’t have to justify our family’s decisions about visitation to anyone. It’s a unanimous choice made in agreement by all parties involved. It’s our darn business, but since I mentioned it in a post lamenting a full range of COVID-related consequences parents tend to worry about, others ran with it to change the subject back to an oh-so-familiar refrain.

It would be funny how some who are all in favor of “personal choice,” without question, all of the time, are now questioning others’ personal choices. Except that of course they’re doing it to try to make a point about mask wearing, vaccines and mandates. Which I thought we were told we were explicitly not talking about. Which is fine.

Except:

Whether and how often we choose to visit grandparents is a personal choice that affects exactly us, our kids and our grandparents. It’s a judgement based on assessment of the current risks in our personal situation. A personal choice that literally affects no one else.

Except it might — heaven forbid— prevent someone from getting sick.

The other “personal choices” we are now apparently talking about — wearing masks and getting vaccinated — have a direct and potentially dangerous impact on literally everyone else.

We’ve had this debate so many times I’ve lost count. But in one evening, we’ve gone from accusations of overblowing childhood deaths from COVID to criticism over grandparent visits and now somehow, remarkably back to the oh-so-evil spectre of mandates, many of which have opt outs to appease those so angry over the mere thought of them that they aren’t even true mandates at all.

So one choice is truly personal. The others affect everyone.

 

[TalkingHead]

Why then, are we okay shutting society down to mitigate the risks of COVID?

Isn’t this a classic straw man? Society isn’t remotely close to being shut down. And mask or vaccine mandates aren’t the equivalent of that, either.

 

[October82]

Isn’t this a classic straw man? Society isn’t remotely close to being shut down. And mask or vaccine mandates aren’t the equivalent of that, either.

Not only not the equivalent, they're the exact opposite.

 

[BrianLo]

They already have it. An unvaccinated child has roughly the same risk profile as a fully vaccinated, healthy 30 year old.

I don’t know if we actually have the statistics to back that up? As in I don’t for example know the rate of healthy vaccinated 30 year olds winding up in the ICU after breakthrough COVID. Can’t find it. There are thousands of children who’ve wound up in ICU however. MIS-C still remains a clinical entity that no one seems to really be aware of. Even though fortunately it’s quite uncommon. Deaths I would quantify as rare.

Again I think it’s important to not over nor understate the risk. It’s important that kids are vaccinated… It’s way more important all adults get vaccinated so that children aren’t constantly punished.

Im looking forward to the vaccine approval for kids. Like always the kids will take one for the adults.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

30 million people live in Texas.

How many children in Texas is it acceptable to sacrifice needlessly due to pure carelessness? How many of yours? One? Two? Which ones?

 

[FeelsSoGoodToBeBad]

Would love to but she is wheelchair bound, has advanced Alzheimer’s and requires around the clock specialized care. Care my FIL can’t provide on his own. Nursing homes cannot risk widespread outbreaks and are forced to take extra/extreme precautions to prevent them from happening.

FWIW, my mother is also in a nursing home because of end-stage vascular dementia. Hospice was brought in just about four weeks ago. I get it. It sucks big hairy goat gonads and anyone who hasn't lived it really can't understand what it is like. Kind of like being a parent. You can watch videos, talk to people, babysit for months at a time, even, but there is nothing that can really prepare you for what it will be like when you have your own child at home (natural, adopted, or what have you). Absolutely nothing can prepare you for what it will be like to be a full-time caregiver to another adult. Transferring a 35# toddler out of the tub has nothing on trying to transfer a 150# 5'2" adult off the toilet when they are fearful of falling all the time.

MoeMoe (my other-mother) kept Mom at home as long as possible, but she is still working and must continue to do so to support herself. They had a caregiver in the home full-time or family assistance for MoeMoe, until it got to the point that Mom didn't couldn't find her way back into a room she just left, didn't recognize the toilet or how to perform any hygiene, couldn't feed herself, and started wandering more than environmental modifications could mitigate risks. Add to the fact MoeMoe's own mother has advanced dementia and has full-time care at an assisted living facility where she and her sister (each lives 15-20 minutes on either side of their mom) also help provide care as much as possible. My sister lives about 20 minutes away but works full time as a pharmacy manager while her husband cares for the home and their two almost-teen boys. I live over four hours away, work full time, and have three teenagers and a husband (who also works full time) diagnosed with an autoimmune disease that has nearly decimated his lung function. Each of us would love to be able to find a way to keep mom at home, but the reality is, we can't, for a myriad of reasons, COVID risks among them. Who would have taken care of Mom if MoeMoe got COVID? The caregivers are not spring chickens and have families of their own. My sister, being the sole income-earner in her house, in combination with the shortage of pharmacy staff, could not have taken off the time to be the support needed during an illness. I could not come help as I have asthma and cannot risk my husband's health, nor my youngest son's (who also has asthma). Many nursing homes have waitlists, especially the better facilities. And finding one that would knowingly take in a close-contact exposure in the days before vaccines were available? Yeah, right.

People like to say things like, "Why don't you take care of them at home," "How can you do that to someone you love," or "Get them out of that horrific place," and on and on. As if we WANTED to place her somewhere we couldn't see or touch her all the time, love on and hug her, hear her voice and singing (even if nothing she says makes sense anymore or are often even actual words); as if we didn't do everything we could to keep her home as long as possible. As if MOM didn't recognize that a time would come when we could no longer keep her with us the way we wanted to. She was an RN who worked with children with profound mental and physical disabilities; she knew what it meant to be a caregiver to someone who was completely dependent upon others for their needs.

Sorry, I'm tired and this feels rambling and disjointed...

All this is to say: Yes, it is sad. But more sad would be keeping her at home for longer than was safe, for her or anyone else. I have seen my share of contractures, severe bedsores, dehydration, malnutrition, and the list goes on, experienced by people who's families thought it best to keep them at home. Families who had the absolute best of intentions but had no idea what a huge responsibility it is to care for an adult completely dependent upon someone else for absolutely everything; how much mental and physical energy it takes to keep plugging away at it, day after day; and how, despite any training and best intentions, things can and will eventually go wrong. There is a reason even special facilities like nursing homes have specialized units for Dementia and Alzheimer's patients. it truly is vastly different from taking care of someone who simply has physical limitations or illness. /rant off

My heart goes out to you and your family @Virtual Toad. I hope that you and your family able to spend more time with your MIL soon. *tight hug*

 

[Virtual Toad]

MoeMoe (my other-mother) kept Mom at home as long as possible, but she is still working and must continue to do so to support herself. They had a caregiver in the home full-time or family assistance for MoeMoe, until it got to the point that Mom didn't couldn't find her way back into a room she just left, didn't recognize the toilet or how to perform any hygiene, couldn't feed herself, and started wandering more than environmental modifications could mitigate risks. Add to the fact MoeMoe's own mother has advanced dementia and has full-time care at an assisted living facility where she and her sister (each lives 15-20 minutes on either side of their mom) also help provide care as much as possible. My sister lives about 20 minutes away but works full time as a pharmacy manager while her husband cares for the home and their two almost-teen boys. I live over four hours away, work full time, and have three teenagers and a husband (who also works full time) diagnosed with an autoimmune disease that has nearly decimated his lung function. Each of us would love to be able to find a way to keep mom at home, but the reality is, we can't, for a myriad of reasons, COVID risks among them. Who would have taken care of Mom if MoeMoe got COVID? The caregivers are not spring chickens and have families of their own. My sister, being the sole income-earner in her house, in combination with the shortage of pharmacy staff, could not have taken off the time to be the support needed during an illness. I could not come help as I have asthma and cannot risk my husband's health, nor my youngest son's (who also has asthma). Many nursing homes have waitlists, especially the better facilities. And finding one that would knowingly take in a close-contact exposure in the days before vaccines were available? Yeah, right.

People like to say things like, "Why don't you take care of them at home," "How can you do that to someone you love," or "Get them out of that horrific place," and on and on. As if we WANTED to place her somewhere we couldn't see or touch her all the time, love on and hug her, hear her voice and singing (even if nothing she says makes sense anymore or are often even actual words); as if we didn't do everything we could to keep her home as long as possible. As if MOM didn't recognize that a time would come when we could no longer keep her with us the way we wanted to. She was an RN who worked with children with profound mental and physical disabilities; she knew what it meant to be a caregiver to someone who was completely dependent upon others for their needs.

Sorry, I'm tired and this feels rambling and disjointed...

All this is to say: Yes, it is sad. But more sad would be keeping her at home for longer than was safe, for her or anyone else. I have seen my share of contractures, severe bedsores, dehydration, malnutrition, and the list goes on, experienced by people who's families thought it best to keep them at home. Families who had the absolute best of intentions but had no idea what a huge responsibility it is to care for an adult completely dependent upon someone else for absolutely everything; how much mental and physical energy it takes to keep plugging away at it, day after day; and how, despite any training and best intentions, things can and will eventually go wrong. There is a reason even special facilities like nursing homes have specialized units for Dementia and Alzheimer's patients. it truly is vastly different from taking care of someone who simply has physical limitations or illness. /rant off

My heart goes out to you and your family @Virtual Toad. I hope that you and your family able to spend more time with your MIL soon. *tight hug*

Right back atcha. Your story shows how many different situations folks are facing and how difficult decisions can be.

I witnessed my in-laws go through some very difficult times in their relationship. But they made it through, and now to see how much my FIL loves his wife and how soul-crushing the decision was when he had to move her to a nursing home, even before COVID... and to see his dedication to her even through the pandemic has been touching beyond words.

Through all the ups and downs the pandemic has piled upon an already heart-breaking situation, he remains optimistic, even through what for him has been an experience he never thought he and his wife would ever face.

I saw how brave my own mom was through my father’s terminal cancer experience, and how brave the wife of my best friend was when she had to handle that identical experience a couple of years ago.

Every single day that I, my wife and my kids are healthy and together is a true gift. Ironically, through the pandemic we’ve all spent a lot more time together — and we’ve learned not to take a single day for granted.

Best wishes to you, your mom and your family as you navigate through it all. Lessons in caring, compassion and understanding through adversity are, at the end of the day, a powerful reminder that in spite of our seemingly profound and hardened differences, we all have way more in common than we think.

 

[Chi84]

FWIW, my mother is also in a nursing home because of end-stage vascular dementia. Hospice was brought in just about four weeks ago. I get it. It sucks big hairy goat gonads and anyone who hasn't lived it really can't understand what it is like. Kind of like being a parent. You can watch videos, talk to people, babysit for months at a time, even, but there is nothing that can really prepare you for what it will be like when you have your own child at home (natural, adopted, or what have you). Absolutely nothing can prepare you for what it will be like to be a full-time caregiver to another adult. Transferring a 35# toddler out of the tub has nothing on trying to transfer a 150# 5'2" adult off the toilet when they are fearful of falling all the time.

MoeMoe (my other-mother) kept Mom at home as long as possible, but she is still working and must continue to do so to support herself. They had a caregiver in the home full-time or family assistance for MoeMoe, until it got to the point that Mom didn't couldn't find her way back into a room she just left, didn't recognize the toilet or how to perform any hygiene, couldn't feed herself, and started wandering more than environmental modifications could mitigate risks. Add to the fact MoeMoe's own mother has advanced dementia and has full-time care at an assisted living facility where she and her sister (each lives 15-20 minutes on either side of their mom) also help provide care as much as possible. My sister lives about 20 minutes away but works full time as a pharmacy manager while her husband cares for the home and their two almost-teen boys. I live over four hours away, work full time, and have three teenagers and a husband (who also works full time) diagnosed with an autoimmune disease that has nearly decimated his lung function. Each of us would love to be able to find a way to keep mom at home, but the reality is, we can't, for a myriad of reasons, COVID risks among them. Who would have taken care of Mom if MoeMoe got COVID? The caregivers are not spring chickens and have families of their own. My sister, being the sole income-earner in her house, in combination with the shortage of pharmacy staff, could not have taken off the time to be the support needed during an illness. I could not come help as I have asthma and cannot risk my husband's health, nor my youngest son's (who also has asthma). Many nursing homes have waitlists, especially the better facilities. And finding one that would knowingly take in a close-contact exposure in the days before vaccines were available? Yeah, right.

People like to say things like, "Why don't you take care of them at home," "How can you do that to someone you love," or "Get them out of that horrific place," and on and on. As if we WANTED to place her somewhere we couldn't see or touch her all the time, love on and hug her, hear her voice and singing (even if nothing she says makes sense anymore or are often even actual words); as if we didn't do everything we could to keep her home as long as possible. As if MOM didn't recognize that a time would come when we could no longer keep her with us the way we wanted to. She was an RN who worked with children with profound mental and physical disabilities; she knew what it meant to be a caregiver to someone who was completely dependent upon others for their needs.

Sorry, I'm tired and this feels rambling and disjointed...

All this is to say: Yes, it is sad. But more sad would be keeping her at home for longer than was safe, for her or anyone else. I have seen my share of contractures, severe bedsores, dehydration, malnutrition, and the list goes on, experienced by people who's families thought it best to keep them at home. Families who had the absolute best of intentions but had no idea what a huge responsibility it is to care for an adult completely dependent upon someone else for absolutely everything; how much mental and physical energy it takes to keep plugging away at it, day after day; and how, despite any training and best intentions, things can and will eventually go wrong. There is a reason even special facilities like nursing homes have specialized units for Dementia and Alzheimer's patients. it truly is vastly different from taking care of someone who simply has physical limitations or illness. /rant off

My heart goes out to you and your family @Virtual Toad. I hope that you and your family able to spend more time with your MIL soon. *tight hug*

Thank you for posting. My mother also suffered from vascular dementia at the end of her life. It was not possible to care for her at home. So many people do not understand this - your post is most appreciated.

 

[FeelsSoGoodToBeBad]

Thank you for posting. My mother also suffered from vascular dementia at the end of her life. It was not possible to care for her at home. So many people do not understand this - your post is most appreciated.

I'm sorry you (and she) experienced this, but I'm glad that my sharing may have helped in some way. It is a strange place to be, wanting to know other people understand what you've experienced, but earnestly wishing no one ever has the ability to really "get it" at the same time. /hug

 

[Lilofan]

In 2019, 146 children in Texas were killed by automobiles.

Comparing Covid deaths to automobile deaths is not comparing like vs like. A virus can spread and kill others , do auto deaths of the TX data you quoted do that? Some like to compare raw data to downplay Covid unfortunately ( ahem.... that rings a familiar bell with some in this country ) . Many know better.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

I assume that was a State, County or City mandate, not Federal?

State, southern Nevada Health District Implemented it after a local outbreak caused by food service employees at the casinos.

99% of the time I prefer local solutions because areas vary so much by population size, density, etc that the one size fits all approach just doesn’t work… the vaccines fall into my 1% though, this is a national problem that requires a national solution.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Let's pretend, for a second, that you could quantify risk and express it as an integer from 1 to 10. Let's further pretend that COVID presents risk level 3 to children. Given risk level 3, parents have every right to make decisions for their kids as they see fit. My objection is that many parents (and public officials) are acting like the risk level is a 9.

I don't think people are doing this deliberately. Some in the media are, because it gets clicks, and some public health officials are, because they want everyone to err on the side of caution, but I think most ordinary people just genuinely overestimate how dangerous COVID is.

While I agree with your comment I’d like to point out that there are also a lot of people who underestimate it and pretend like the risk is zero.

Both extremes create problems, overestimating results in a ton of panicked people who think the risk is a 10 and even draconian lengths are acceptable to stop it, underestimating results in a ton of lax people who think the risk is a zero and oppose even the most reasonable precautions as unnecessary.

 

[AEfx]

At this point, anyone who still pushes the “children aren’t affected by this” mythical nonsense is not even worth arguing with. They are burying their heads in the sand for whatever reason, just ignore the trolling.

 

[Heppenheimer]

None of this is correct.

COVID mutations will tend to make it more contagious but less lethal. It will become another common cold.

We simply do not know this, and no, you don't have some special insight because of something you may have googled that the scientific consensus currently is unaware of.

EDIT: And we have no good evidence to suggest that delta is "less lethal" than other variants. Data is still accumulating, but the age-adjusted mortality for unvaccinated patients so far seems about the same or somewhat worse than previous variants.

 

[DisneyFan32]

The current mandate is set to expire in January 2022, but no one knows if they will extend it again. Doubtful they will remove the mandate before then unless every county in the country is in the green. Fauci said this weekend he supports requirements to be vaccinated in order to fly so that is also a possibility.

What about trains, will they will remove masks for trains by January, February or March 2022/ April 2022. I need to ride NJ Transit train to NYC soon again next year so I don't have to wear mask on a train again forever.

 

[Polkadotdress]

I'm sorry I just can't understand this mindset. This is so awful. My mother-in-law was literally a chemo patient and she spent summer 2020, pre-vaccine, playing with my newborn son on the beach. Get your MIL out of that prison.

Some people are worth melting for.

Flippantly advising someone to remove their elderly relative out of long-term care is on the same level as:

--telling those who are high-risk for Covid to "just stay home"
--telling those who have concerns about their workplace safety policies to "just quit and find another job"
--telling parents who have concerns for their children attending school to "just pull them out of school"

You live in a fairy tale world as things "just" can't simply happen like that.

 

[Heppenheimer]

I caught this on the BBC today:

UK scraps Covid-19 vaccine deal with French firm Valneva

The French firm says the deal was cancelled over allegations of a breach of the agreement, which it denies.

www.bbc.com

Beyond the thrust of the article about the British government cancelling the contract with the manufacturer, of more broad interest is the Valneva vaccine itself. I don't know if any regulatory body has yet approved this particular vaccine, but if it ever makes it to the US, it can provide an alternative to those who claim they refuse the vaccine because the technologies behind Pfizer-BIONTECH, Moderna and Jansen's vaccines are "too new". Valneva takes advantage of the standard technique of using a "killed" pathogen, which has been successfully and safely deployed since the 1800s.

Without taking a deeper internet dive than I have the time for, I could not find any published data on this vaccine's efficacy, and it doesn't look like the company has any immediate plans to submit their product for FDA review. But it would be nice to have another option to counter the "it's too new" arguments, although that will almost certainly be followed by other new excuse on why they can't get even this vaccine.