Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[sullyinMT]

From an article linked below: Ivermectin is used in humans to treat some parasitic worms, and there are topical (on the skin) formulations for head lice and skin conditions like rosacea. Ivermectin is not an anti-viral (a drug for treating viruses).

The patient was prescribed the drug by a doctor. Not, apparently, a good one, but a doctor none the less. The judge wasn't making a medical decision, merely allowing a patient to take a drug they had been prescribed.

I guess if a patient has two doctors with differing opinions, the patient is entitled to choose.

At least the patient is getting the human version. A lot of people are trying to buy the Ivermectin that is for horses.

Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19

Using the Drug ivermectin to treat COVID-19 can be dangerous and even lethal. The FDA has not approved the drug for that purpose.

www.fda.gov

What you are saying is legally correct. That they are allowing a patient their right to take a prescribed medication. The judge is also circumventing the hospital system’s right to allow only their credentialed providers (a big part of their liability, mind you, is vetting med staff), to prescribe to their admitted patients.

If this husband and wife want to sign him out AMA and take whatever is prescribed by whom ever, then so be it.

 

[Chi84]

And if the ivermectin causes complications (it isn't a particularly pleasant medication to take), is the judge going to recommend how to proceed from there?

According to the article some doctor wrote a prescription for it. It’s unusual but sometimes courts do order medical treatment - usually according to specifications set out by the party requesting it and the doctor who authorized it. Because of privacy issues, the article has very little information about what was actually ordered.

 

[Andrew C]

I'm vaccinated too, but I don't live in FL. That makes my risk from COVID lower than @Polkadotdress just because of my surroundings and nothing else.

I'm not sure how many times it can be said that the vaccine is not a force field of protection repelling every interaction with the virus at the slightest exposure.

Given enough of a soupy pool of virus to be breathing in, and the chances the vaccine will fail to protect increases.

The vaccine still (and always has) worked best, when it has very little exposure and needs to do very little work.

PS: My county has 73.3% of total population fully vaccinated and 86.4% of 12 and older. Feeling pretty good if I can only interact with county residents for the most part.

I get it. As a vaccinated person, would I be more worried about getting Covid if I lived in Florida? Probably. Greater spread. Greater chance. Makes sense.
If I were to get it, would I be worried about getting severely ill or dying from it. No. The vaccine does an even more amazing job in that area. Now, if my immune system was very compromised, I would probably think differently

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

What you are saying is legally correct. That they are allowing a patient their right to take a prescribed medication. The judge is also circumventing the hospital system’s right to allow only their credentialed providers (a big part of their liability, mind you, is vetting med staff), to prescribe to their admitted patients.

If this husband and wife want to sign him out AMA and take whatever is prescribed by whom ever, then so be it.

I assume the court order alleviates the hospital of any liability, but I agree this does open a big can of worms where doctors or hospitals have to administer a treatment prescribed by someone off site. What's to stop a patient from calling every crackpot doctor in the country and then getting an order for their local provider to administer whatever nonsense treatment they have been offered?

I agree that they patient should normally be required to seek treatment elsewhere in these scenarios, but the fact they're on a ventilator does complicate that.

 

[Heppenheimer]

What you are saying is legally correct. That they are allowing a patient their right to take a prescribed medication. The judge is also circumventing the hospital system’s right to allow only their credentialed providers (a big part of their liability, mind you, is vetting med staff), to prescribe to their admitted patients.

If this husband and wife want to sign him out AMA and take whatever is prescribed by whom ever, then so be it.

Calling on the resident lawyers to explain if there is any precedent for this. Specifically, a judge ordering a hospital to grant a non-affiliated physician privileges for the specific purposes of administering a non-standard treatment. If I was on this patient's treatment team, I would then tell the ivermectin prescriber: You can take over all care from here.

It sounds like the patient is pretty sick, so they probably wouldn't dare leave AMA.

 

[rio]

There was a similar cold/flu going around in the months before COVID. It had a lot of us wondering, maybe I did have COVID?...

I do appreciate that I haven't been sick at all in the last year, thanks to masks, working from home, social distancing, etc.

It's a good idea to get a flu shot, as we're still at the point where any illness might require going in for testing and/or isolating because you don't know if it's COVID or not.

Just a reminder that the flu isn't a joke. The 2017-2018 flu was one of the worst in recent memory, with 810,000 hospitalizations and 61,000 deaths from November-February :

2017-2018 Estimated Flu Illnesses, Medical Visits, Hospitalizations, and Deaths and Estimated Flu-Related Illnesses, Medical Visits, Hospitalizations, and Deaths Averted by Vaccination in the United States | CDC

Everything you need to know about the flu illness, including symptoms, treatment and prevention.

www.cdc.gov

and LA treated people in tents:

California hospitals face a 'war zone' of flu patients — and are setting up tents to treat them

California hospitals have had to scramble for more space and staff to keep up with the high numbers of patients showing up in the ER sick with a deadly strain of the flu.

www.latimes.com

 

[lazyboy97o]

I had seen this. Insane that a judge can mandate a hospital to provide a treatment, much less one that is not standard of care.

This seems to be an incredibly dangerous precedent and not just for medicine. A number of professions are built on a standard of care. As you know, not acting according to that standard of care is grounds for liability and punishment. Not following a court order also jeopardizes that professional. This isn’t even a loved one wanting someone moved to a different doctor’s care and the first doctor refusing.

From an article linked below: Ivermectin is used in humans to treat some parasitic worms, and there are topical (on the skin) formulations for head lice and skin conditions like rosacea. Ivermectin is not an anti-viral (a drug for treating viruses).

The patient was prescribed the drug by a doctor. Not, apparently, a good one, but a doctor none the less. The judge wasn't making a medical decision, merely allowing a patient to take a drug they had been prescribed.

I guess if a patient has two doctors with differing opinions, the patient is entitled to choose.

At least the patient is getting the human version. A lot of people are trying to buy the Ivermectin that is for horses.

Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19

Using the Drug ivermectin to treat COVID-19 can be dangerous and even lethal. The FDA has not approved the drug for that purpose.

www.fda.gov

Except he wasn’t in that doctor’s care. It seems she went out and found a doctor who is handing out prescriptions.

 

[sullyinMT]

Calling on the resident lawyers to explain if there is any precedent for this. Specifically, a judge ordering a hospital to grant a non-affiliated physician privileges for the specific purposes of administering a non-standard treatment. If I was on this patient's treatment team, I would then tell the ivermectin prescriber: You can take over all care from here.

It sounds like the patient is pretty sick, so they probably wouldn't dare leave AMA.

I vaguely remember a few cases from my medical ethics class that could be seen as precedent, but I don’t remember details. So an attorney opinion would be interesting.

Also don’t disagree that an AMA discharge isn’t really possible while intubated; it was more of a hypothetical argument. This family clearly doesn’t trust the hospital, and I’m sure the tension there is THICK. Maybe they can find a transfer facility willing to deal with him/them/the headache.

 

[Heppenheimer]

According to the article some doctor wrote a prescription for it. It’s unusual but sometimes courts do order medical treatment - usually according to specifications set out by the party requesting it and the doctor who authorized it. Because of privacy issues, the article has very little information about what was actually ordered.

The prescriber was not affiliated with the hospital prior to this. Even though I work for a hospital, I don't work on the in-patient side, so I do not have admitting privileges. If my own patients are admitted, I can't just order medications for them or contradict what the attending physician is doing. I trust their judgement enough not to interfere (which I can't do anyway...). Not having privileges at a hospital is a huge red flag and liability issue. And will this provider then assume care moving forward? Is he/she familiar with all the hospital procedures for ordering tests, referrals, transfers, discharges, etc? This is so much more complicated than just one medication being ordered by someone else.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Except he wasn’t in that doctor’s care. It seems she went out and found a doctor who is handing out prescriptions.

Amazing how many people will go through a decade of college to get their doctorate degree and then become pill pushers. When MJ was only legal for medical reason we had billboards for Doctors that openly claimed they’d give anyone a medical MJ card, other doctors will prescribe Opioids to anyone… when there’s money to be made people’s ethics get shady.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The prescriber was not affiliated with the hospital prior to this. Even though I work for a hospital, I don't work on the in-patient side, so I do not have admitting privileges. If my own patients are admitted, I can't just order medications for them or contradict what the attending physician is doing. I trust their judgement enough not to interfere (which I can't do anyway...). Not having privileges at a hospital is a huge red flag and liability issue. And will this provider then assume care moving forward? Is he/she familiar with all the hospital procedures for ordering tests, referrals, transfers, discharges, etc? This is so much more complicated than just one medication being ordered by someone else.

Is it even legal to write a prescription for a patient you have never seen? It seems like a huge problem that I could call up a doctor and get a prescription for a “family member”.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Amazing how many people will go through a decade of college to get their doctorate degree and then become pill pushers. When MJ was only legal for medical reason we had billboards for Doctors that openly claimed they’d give anyone a medical MJ card, other doctors will prescribe Opioids to anyone… when there’s money to be made people’s ethics get shady.

I've met a few physicians who really liked their bling and had lifestyles to maintain (or aspire to). They're usually the ones that come up in ethics or licensing investigations.

 

[Weather_Lady]

Wanted to post this separately - UK peer reviewed study

Study finds low rate of COVID-19 "breakthrough" infections, fewer symptoms in vaccinated people

Data on more than 1 million vaccinated people in Britain shows the vaccines not only help prevent infection, but sharply reduce the risk of serious illness or hospitalization.

www.cbsnews.com

While this is merely anecdotal, in my small upstate NY county, over 60% of residents are currently vaccinated, yet over 93% of our current COVID-related hospitalizations are for non-vaccinated individuals, with almost all of the breakthrough infection hospitalizations occurring among people who were already severely immuno-compromised. Exactly 0 people in our county have been hospitalized due to side effects of the COVID vaccine.

You'd think those numbers would be enough to convince anyone with a rudimentary understanding of math or science to get vaccinated, but there are many locals whose immediate reaction is, "See, I knew it! 7% of those in the hospital are breakthrough infections! That means vaccines don't work!"

 

[Polkadotdress]

That was my thought as well. How can a judge mandate something like that? The world has gone crazy.

The judge probably moonlights on the side
as one of those insurance experts, who love to decline your much-needed, doctor-recommended medication that won’t be covered by insurance.

 

[Lilofan]

I've met a few physicians who really liked their bling and had lifestyles to maintain (or aspire to). They're usually the ones that come up in ethics or licensing investigations.

Yes and a Dr Perwaiz a VA gynecologist was sentenced to 59 years in prison for fraud for performing unnecessary procedures to fund his lavish lifestyle.

 

[Timmay]

More Americans have died from Covid in a year and a half then US military personnel died - from all causes, not just combat - in World War I, World War II, Vietnam, and Korea COMBINED.

People are really terrible at understanding - or admitting - the scale of this disaster. They aren’t able to understand the huge, absolutely unique crisis of the US potentially losing over 1% of its population.

Please don’t. Compring the two is even less productive or helpful or accurate than comparing Covid with the Spanish Flu/influenza/H1N1, etc. Numbers can say what we want them to say if we are selective. We have enough challenges right now with Covid without doing this.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

Is it even legal to write a prescription for a patient you have never seen? It seems like a huge problem that I could call up a doctor and get a prescription for a “family member”.

I've met with doctors on a strictly online basis. Many people see doctors in a clinic and they get a recommended course of action despite having never met that doctor before.

I guess if a patient is on a ventilator due to COVID, there is nothing to be learned from meeting them in person. A family member has to make the decisions in this case because someone on a ventilator may not be able to (?).

It's a complicated issue.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I've met with doctors on a strictly online basis. Many people see doctors in a clinic and they get a recommended course of action despite having never met that doctor before.

I guess if a patient is on a ventilator due to COVID, there is nothing to be learned from meeting them in person. A family member has to make the decisions in this case because someone on a ventilator may not be able to (?).

It's a complicated issue.

A telemedicine call doesn’t result in a hospital changing course of action. It’s for certain issues and I know of people who have been told they need to be seen in person. There’s plenty to learn about a patient in an intensive care unit for COVID-19. Just basics like their vitals. How they have or are responding to other measures.

Given that the prescribing doctor seems to think ivermectin is essentially magic, I am not inclined to give the benefit of doubt that he requested and received the patient’s medical records and information on his current status and then sat down and made a considered decision that this off label use was worth a try.

 

[wdisney9000]

Why are we still this anti-vax? Seriously I am dumbfounded by the turn of this events. I'm seriously sick of people acting like this is a common occurrence and still, when we are so pathetically unvaccinated not due to resources that people peddle these arguments

Seriously makes me angry and sick to my stomach that people are being this weird about vaccines when likely they're pretty vaccinated for everything else.

I read an older anti-vax article and how it happens but this now? Defies all logic.

And this is why it continues. Unbelievable. Continue to minimize and spread misinformation. “You bet” is as useless as “you know, some very fine people, good people, have been telling me that…”

These cases are so exceedingly rare and you know it. To use this as a line of debate would be laughable if it weren’t so irresponsible and tragic.

Apparently you have made it loud and clear of your examples of ones being vaccinated dying from covid and you continually questioning this. I and many others are vaccinated and will keep moving on.

My post which you all responded to was only two questions. Questions, not declarations. Questions that in no way said vaccines are not affective or that I'm anti vax. Instead of an answer, you chose to twist the words around and spew venomous nonsense about misinformation. How is a question misinformation?

You view my questions as some type of attack against vaccines or debate strategy, but they were just questions. The questions clearly offended you.





And none of you have yet to answer either of my questions. It's ok. I don't want to offend you. And I'm sure this post will be somehow viewed as "anti vax".

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

A telemedicine call doesn’t result in a hospital changing course of action. It’s for certain issues and I know of people who have been told they need to be seen in person. There’s plenty to learn about a patient in an intensive care unit for COVID-19. Just basics like their vitals. How they have or are responding to other measures.

Given that the prescribing doctor seems to think ivermectin is essentially magic, I am not inclined to give the benefit of doubt that he requested and received the patient’s medical records and information on his current status and then sat down and made a considered decision that this off label use was worth a try.

Yeah, this doctor seems to be an idiot, but I'm looking at this with the assumption that most such cases would involve a competent doctor. I don't know that a judge with no medical expertise should be a factor here. Is there no governing body of doctors with the ability to say, no, you cannot treat a COVID patient with something that is not a treatment for a virus and could do more harm than good?

What if the situation were somehow reversed? A patient who can't be moved is being refused a reasonable treatment? There could be cases where someone is desperately calling a good doctor for help because their current setting is failing them.