FastPass+ Most Certainly Not Coming Back As It Was

[el_super]

Sad but true

I don't think it is all that sad. If you went back to 1999 and asked if people though Fastpass would be around forever, I think everyone would have laughed at you. Fastpass as it was originally launched was a compromise between the old and the new, and trying to solution for the age-old problem of having to wait in a long line. Flash forward 20 years later and people are still waiting in long lines and Fastpass hasn't really solved anything. The real problem is, people grew to REALLY LIKE IT for some inexplicable reason.

Disney could have/should have gone to a completely virtual queue system by now, but they've been loathed to make changes to the system that everyone likes so much.

Personally, I think this is long overdue.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Artificially playing with economics is something goverments need to forget how to do.

So you don’t like modern capitalism?

 

[JERiv]

It's a machiavellian strategy.

It still boggles my mind how they can't see this as a negative driver of guest satisfaction. Happy guests spend more time in the park and that translates into more money spent at restaurants and shops. Unhappy guests want to leave as quickly as possible and not come back. If the goal was to increase per capita guest spending, this just seems counterintuitive.

... you're talking about the company that got rid of the Magical Express bus because "uber".

From what I've seen the overwhelming majority of people agree that the move is as counterintitive as it could possibly be. All long term loss, for very short term gain.

It's the same as every single company where Wall Street types takes over. It all becomes about how much $$$ they can make today, vs whether they're cannibalizing their own future growth and profits (which they most definitely are).

 

[dsinclair]

I would counter this with suggesting that it’s common for luxurious hotels to charge for parking.

There’s no hotel at WDW or Universal that I would consider luxurious. Four Seasons? Yes. Any Disney operated hotel? No.

What’s particularly irritating at WDW is that you already were paying for parking - it was included in your room rate. (Just like you were paying for Disney’s Magical Express, but that’s a different topic.)

Other hotels start by charging for parking separately. Parking is not included in the room rate. But this is not the case at WDW. At WDW, you already were indirectly paying for parking.

This is why when Disney started charging for parking, they couldn’t add the fee to DVC stays. Parking was already included in the DVC Maintenance Fees.

This is one of the things offensive about Premier Access. You already were paying for FP+. Disney is taking that away and charging you for its replacement.

It's also common for non-luxurious hotels to charge. The entire Kimpton chain charges, and most if not all Wyndham, Renaissance, Loews, and Crowne Plazas charge, and none of these are anywhere close to the Four Seasons.

You make points about the semantics of deciding to start charging that can have an emotional weight for guests, but that doesn't change the fact that for the prices Disney charges (especially moderate and above), it is the norm to be charge for parking.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I don't think it is all that sad. If you went back to 1999 and asked if people though Fastpass would be around forever, I think everyone would have laughed at you. Fastpass as it was originally launched was a compromise between the old and the new, and trying to solution for the age-old problem of having to wait in a long line. Flash forward 20 years later and people are still waiting in long lines and Fastpass hasn't really solved anything. The real problem is, people grew to REALLY LIKE IT for some inexplicable reason.

Disney could have/should have gone to a completely virtual queue system by now, but they've been loathed to make changes to the system that everyone likes so much.

Personally, I think this is long overdue.

Disney tech is terrible…and their one current foray into virtual queues lives up to that standard

 

[pdude81]

But what about paid fastpass during the last 3 hours of the day that costs $129?

So many free ideas in this thread that could cost us more money

I think EMM and DAH are enough of an upcharge and don't mind paying for them, as is.

 

[el_super]

Disney tech is terrible…and their one current foray into virtual queues lives up to that standard

It is ... but it's also a bit of a Catch-22 right? There's no motivation to update and support the tech, if your guests are still largely attached to the old systems.

How many times do we have to go thru this loop:

Disney introduces Fastpass and the guests hate it and want the old standby queues.
Disney introduces Fastpass+ and the guests hate it and want the old paper tickets.
Disney introduces Virtual Queues and Boarding Groups and the guests hate it and want the old Fastpass+ options.
Disney introduces Paid Fastpasses and ... ?

 

[hopemax]

That ticket pricing is based on the old model. I expect it will change to accommodate the new model if needed.

The old model was very much based on the research that folks take vacations in 1 week increments, have a set budget, and Disney wants to capture that entire budget and weeklong vacation. That old model was also about trying to fill the parks and spark demand. Under that model, Disney captured you at MCO, brought you to their property, and kept you there. Ticket prices incentivized you to stay. Free transportation made it hard to leave. And perks made you want to stay onsite.

Now, Disney has a demand problem -- too many people want to come there and they can't accommodate everyone who wants to come. Instead of increasing capacity, they are trying to find ways to maximize revenue based on the capacity they have. We have seen them take many steps to do this, all of which are moving away from the old model. First, no more MDE. Second, a token EMH benefit for all, but really, mainly for deluxe guests. Third, pay to play FP. Fourth, more after hours events -- essentially double selling the parks. Didn't have a magical time? Then you should have spent more. Don't come back unless you are willing to pony-up, because there are a thousand people ready to take your spot.

And this is no secret, Chapek has said all this to wall street. They have unprecedented demand. APs are undesirables. They are looking to increase per guest spending.

One of the previous times, I participated in this line of discussion, I came to a similar conclusion. The Eisner era thinking was certainly about trying to increase LOS and transition people from a weekend trip, or a 2 day WDW visit in the course of a greater Florida vacation to a 5-7 day stay. But extending stays is not how they want to maximize profits now. The average daily guest spend is the key metric, and Chapek in particular, uses it a lot.

This management team believes there is enough demand to support higher turnover. Shorter stays are perfectly fine as long as the room, the restaurant, the attraction, is never only partially filled. First & second timers who want to smash a hundred things into a few days are better than lifers who have reached the point of picking & choosing their favorites instead of feeling like they need to do everything on every trip. In the past, promoting this kind of strategy would have led to periods where WDW would not have been able to fill all the hotel, dining and attraction capacity. There was a purpose to giving small discounts on longer tickets in order to fill a hotel room and the rest. Travel patterns have changed from periods of feast and other periods of famine; it's all feast.

I still think WDW is happy with the 5-7 day group, and going to 3-4 days is unnecessary. Too short of stays have people running around on attractions, and not spending. People need to stay long enough to feel comfortable that they can take the time to do the add-ons. However, our 1995-2005 trips were all 10-14 days (to make it worth the trip from the PacNW) and we had LOS passes. IMO, this management doesn't want us to do that. They would rather have 2-3 families in that room, and in the park. The passes we bought are no longer available, and haven't been for awhile now. Our type of vacation had value to old management, it doesn't for Chapek.

 

[djkidkaz]

I don't think it is all that sad. If you went back to 1999 and asked if people though Fastpass would be around forever, I think everyone would have laughed at you. Fastpass as it was originally launched was a compromise between the old and the new, and trying to solution for the age-old problem of having to wait in a long line. Flash forward 20 years later and people are still waiting in long lines and Fastpass hasn't really solved anything. The real problem is, people grew to REALLY LIKE IT for some inexplicable reason.

Disney could have/should have gone to a completely virtual queue system by now, but they've been loathed to make changes to the system that everyone likes so much.

Personally, I think this is long overdue.

It did solve the problem of waiting in long lines dependent on your situation. I'm a local with two little kids who previously would make three fast passes from home and then go to the park to ride those attractions with little to no wait. We always also got food in the park and occasionally the kids would get a toy from the merchandise shop. To go and ride three rides, get lunch and check out the shops for a few hours felt like a nice little visit to the parks without being overwhelming for me or the kids.

As things are now, I'm not taking two little kids to any of the parks because they won't be able to stand in a 45 minute line without getting super antsy. And its not worth it for me to just go eat in the park and leave, too much hassle. So Disney basically lost all those weekly trips and food / merch sales I made by removing the efficiency of fast pass.

 

[iowamomof4]

I think you meant summer...but 'Simmer" is a funny substitute for summer in FL.

..Dah dah, da doo, uh bah bah bah bah bah boo
The hot and the cold are both so intense
Put 'em together it just makes sense!
Rrr raht da daht dah dah dah had dah dah dah dah doo
Winter's a good time to stay in and cuddle
But put me in summer and I'll be a happy....

Fun fact: I named our upcoming August trip "Summer Simmer" in my TP dashboard.

 

[Waters Back Side]

Plenty of things Disney could monetize but hasn’t…. They could charge extra to use one of their bathrooms, to see the fireworks, for the “convenience” of placing a mobile food order, to have a CM take a photo of you using your phone/camera, etc.

Exactly. And Disney is a business so while they will always look for ways to make a profit and increase revenue, they also have to be careful that they do not reduce it in other areas like shows. Events, tours, dining etc. Disney will most certainly charge for some form of Fast Pass or "line skipping method" but they will do it in a way where they can have control of the standby lines and cut them off when they want and queue people up for a later time. It could end up solving nothing and it could end up being a disaster in which we see another 400 page thread about how the new system despite the cutoff of all free passes and the FPs that they are charging have done nothing to fix the standby lines. But it is NOT rocket science to assume that guests at their resorts which they need to promote and incentivize, will be included the DPA package (OR a segment of itfor free).

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

If anyone believes that the price of an admission ticket will be lowered when the new pass system is started
I would ask you to cite ANY price rollback done in the past by the mouse. This all boils down to simple
economics . They want to make more money. Thats it.

They did- sort of- a small one back when they first uncoupled hopping and expiration from tickets. Prior to Jan 2, 2005 all multi day tickets were non-expiring park hoppers. WDW didn't sell non-hoppers or non-expiring tickets. For example a 5 day hopper advance purchase was $217, a 7-day hopper advance was 329.

After the change:
5 day base advance purchase: $193, hopper 217.
7 day base Advance Purchase: $199. hopper: $223.

If you were just planning to use the ticket during your visit, then the no expire change didn't matter. If you also didn't care about hopping, the price of a muIti-day ticket went down. (Of course, it was in increase if you bought both no expire and hopping- that's why it was sort of a small price decrease.)

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

It is ... but it's also a bit of a Catch-22 right? There's no motivation to update and support the tech, if your guests are still largely attached to the old systems.

How many times do we have to go thru this loop:

Disney introduces Fastpass and the guests hate it and want the old standby queues.
Disney introduces Fastpass+ and the guests hate it and want the old paper tickets.
Disney introduces Virtual Queues and Boarding Groups and the guests hate it and want the old Fastpass+ options.
Disney introduces Paid Fastpasses and ... ?

I was in wdw in the early days of fastpass…I think you may not be giving it it’s due credit for its time. It was innovative.

the problem started when Bob promised “new revenues” because they needed to pay for new WiFi routers and didn’t have the guts to ask

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

They did- sort of- a small one back when they first uncoupled hopping and expiration from tickets. Prior to Jan 2, 2005 all multi day tickets were non-expiring park hoppers. WDW didn't sell non-hoppers or non-expiring tickets. For example a 5 day hopper advance purchase was $217, a 7-day hopper advance was 329.

After the change:
5 day base advance purchase: $193, hopper 217.
7 day base Advance Purchase: $199. hopper: $223.

If you were just planning to use the ticket during your visit, then the no expire change didn't matter. If you also didn't care about hopping, the price of a muIti-day ticket went down. (Of course, it was in increase if you bought both no expire and hopping- that's why it was sort of a small price decrease.)

I applaud you for finding an example…

..:I double dog dare you to find another?

 

[rkleinlein]

As if planning a Disney vacation wasn't already complicated enough. Now we're going to be asked to pay attention to a barrage of annoying notifications from a stupid Disney app asking us if we want to pay extra to skip a line (or get a table, or go see Goofy on the other side of the park or whatever else the all-knowing Genie decides we might want)? I'd rather buy an Express Pass at Universal. It's a rip-off too, but at least I can enjoy the park without staring at my phone and making minute-by-minute plans all day.

 

[Rickcat96]

Yes, its just a rumor at the moment, DL is slow right now, WDW is no way near full open capacity. Until they get the parks and Resorts fully staffed, I find it very hard for them to do anything at this point.

 

[Communicora]

So who's going to pay $12.99 to meet Mickey at Town Square Theater with no line or wait 1 hour in standby?

That is, if and when traditional meets return.

And to have your photos taken by an automated box at that.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

I would bet that most people booking their FP+ selections in advance know which rides are their "must do" rides and which ones aren't.

Probably, but I actually changed quite a few FP on the day I planned to use them. FP+ changed over time. Initially, there was very little flexibility, but the system became more flexible over time.

(With the tiering in Epcot, IMO, it didn't matter a ton which attractions you picked, especially for your tier 2 attractions. Very often the standby and FP lines were nearly identical, and modifying was easy. It took all of about 15 seconds.)

 

[el_super]

But extending stays is not how they want to maximize profits now. The average daily guest spend is the key metric, and Chapek in particular, uses it a lot.

I almost agree with this post, but I have a couple of (probably controversial) additions:

Corporations don't adjust strategies unless there is a compelling reason to, and the reason they are adjusting away from the old Eisner strategy of increasing attendance/LOS is that it just doesn't work anymore. Either they have hit the ceiling of what capacity they can physically push thru the gates (with the parks/resorts at 90% capacity for decades now), or they have hit the limit of demand they see coming from the public.

There is no growth potential in the current strategy and it's just run its course.

The second and probably most controversial for this group is understanding that they are trying to implement a complete reset of their parks strategy, while keeping things similar enough to not push away their loyal customers. I know this group tends to think Disney doesn't care about guest satisfaction, but they most certainly do. Bold actions, even when necessary, tend to frighten people away, and Disney doesn't want to take that risk. We're seeing this dance play out at DLR right now with the "Legacy Passholder" program and their attempts to keep the fans engaged, while also telling them they are unsustainable.

 

[RobbinsDad]

... you're talking about the company that got rid of the Magical Express bus because "uber".

From what I've seen the overwhelming majority of people agree that the move is as counterintitive as it could possibly be. All long term loss, for very short term gain.

It's the same as every single company where Wall Street types takes over. It all becomes about how much $$$ they can make today, vs whether they're cannibalizing their own future growth and profits (which they most definitely are).

I disagree. I think this will turn out to be very popular among those Disney values most: guests with (perceived) unlimited income to spend at the parks. 60 dollars for my family of four to avoid an hour+ wait for SDMT? Done. Now I also have time to pick up some Disney ears or a cupcake or the Bluey plushie my kid has been dying for. Bam - increased guest satisfaction, and return visits, at least until the shine wears off or the kids get older. In that case there's a new crop of young families discovering the omnipresent Disney entertainment magic.

WDW is basically now a casino - cater to the real and wannabe high rollers, inconvenience the $5 blackjack table players enough to where they either stick it out for the privilege of being there or move on.