EPCOT New Play Pavilion to replace Epcot's Wonders of Life

[LuvWDW2]

This is way too reasonable and level-headed.

I expect to be banned at any minute as a result

 

[Bender123]

I agree with a lot that’s being said on both sides. My first visit was 1997. I never went as a child because I lived 1000 miles away and it was frankly too expensive for my family. I’ve now been over 20 times.

The idea that I’m one of the unwashed because I never experienced Epcot Center gives me a chuckle. But I’ve come to expect that kind of elitist attitude here on Magic. I realize that it is also said with some tongue in cheek by most, but not all.

Am I happy with every change corporate makes? Of course not. But I am glad that things do change (even if it’s sometimes years too late).

The parks are for everyone (both the washed and unwashed). We aren’t going to like everything equally, and I’m personally ok with that. I’ll just focus on what I do like and leave the longing for things that are gone and never coming back to others.

Having kids and a fiancée that doesn't have a WDW history really helped me to mellow out...Im an old school WDW person. First trip was in 1980, my parents were WDW fans from the year they opened and I have been a fairly regular guest over my life. My kids were born in 2003 and 2006, so they don't really know "classic" WDW. They watch videos on it and know it, but they know current WDW and love it the same way I did. My Fiancee has been there once and she really didn't understand it...She has an appreciation for it, but has absolutely no nostalgia to fall back on, so to her, WDW is a really fun vacation spot.

I cant fault any of them for feeling the way I do...they never experienced JII, If you had Wings or WoM...Its not something they can relate to.

 

[LuvWDW2]

Having kids and a fiancée that doesn't have a WDW history really helped me to mellow out...Im an old school WDW person. First trip was in 1980, my parents were WDW fans from the year they opened and I have been a fairly regular guest over my life. My kids were born in 2003 and 2006, so they don't really know "classic" WDW. They watch videos on it and know it, but they know current WDW and love it the same way I did. My Fiancee has been there once and she really didn't understand it...She has an appreciation for it, but has absolutely no nostalgia to fall back on, so to her, WDW is a really fun vacation spot.

I cant fault any of them for feeling the way I do...they never experienced JII, If you had Wings or WoM...Its not something they can relate to.

What’s her nostalgia point? Her first visit? The kids first visit?

Everyone has one and just because it wasn’t in 1971 (or 1982) doesn’t mean it’s not meaningful for them. I guess that was kind of my point. While I certainly don’t long for the ugly pink castle, I’ll never forget it.

 

[Bender123]

What’s her nostalgia point? Her first visit? The kids first visit?

Everyone has one and just because it wasn’t in 1971 (or 1982) doesn’t mean it’s not meaningful for them. I guess that was kind of my point. While I certainly don’t long for the ugly pink castle, I’ll never forget it.

Its a building process for her...she was never there as a kid and now its a "family" thing. The difference between her WDW nostalgia, my version of nostalgia and the kids is that if she or the kids came in here and talked about their brand of WDW nostalgia, it would likely be derided for not including any of what "us" would consider a "good" version of WDW.

Nostalgia is a function of time and space...we spend a huge amount of time here discussing the golden age of WDW, when, realistically, that golden age would just not be a viable model for what people expect today.

 

[Horizons '83]

I agree with a lot that’s being said on both sides. My first visit was 1997. I never went as a child because I lived 1000 miles away and it was frankly too expensive for my family. I’ve now been over 20 times.

The idea that I’m one of the unwashed because I never experienced Epcot Center gives me a chuckle. But I’ve come to expect that kind of elitist attitude here on Magic. I realize that it is also said with some tongue in cheek by most, but not all.

Am I happy with every change corporate makes? Of course not. But I am glad that things do change (even if it’s sometimes years too late).

The parks are for everyone (both the washed and unwashed). We aren’t going to like everything equally, and I’m personally ok with that. I’ll just focus on what I do like and leave the longing for things that are gone and never coming back to others.

I agree with most of your sediment. The parks are for everyone, but whether you've been going to Epcot for 35 years, 10 years or you made your first trip this year, the bar should always be held to the highest standard which has not been the case with many of the decisions made recently. This isn't a knock on the everything they have decided on recently and its not even a knock on newly released details of Epcot's transformation. Where I see they have dropped the bar is maintenance and show, and we all deserve top notch show no matter how long or recent you have been coming to the park.

 

[GlacierGlacier]

I agree with most of your sediment.

I'm glad - most people take it for granite.

 

[LuvWDW2]

Its a building process for her...she was never there as a kid and now its a "family" thing. The difference between her WDW nostalgia, my version of nostalgia and the kids is that if she or the kids came in here and talked about their brand of WDW nostalgia, it would likely be derided for not including any of what "us" would consider a "good" version of WDW.

Nostalgia is a function of time and space...we spend a huge amount of time here discussing the golden age of WDW, when, realistically, that golden age would just not be a viable model for what people expect today.

I couldn’t agree more!

 

[Bender123]

I agree with most of your sediment. The parks are for everyone, but whether you've been going to Epcot for 35 years, 10 years or you made your first trip this year, the bar should always be held to the highest standard which has not been the case with many of the decisions made recently. This isn't a knock on the everything they have decided on recently and its not even a knock on newly released details of Epcot's transformation. Where I see they have dropped the bar is maintenance and show, and we all deserve top notch show no matter how long or recent you have been coming to the park.

I would not argue that show quality has dropped, its still lightyears beyond anybody else, which has a weird effect on us of being fantastic and horrible at the same time. We can see the decline, because we obsess over the days when seeing a burned out light bulb was almost unheard of.

What a new person sees is a park that is pristine, compared to anywhere else.

Its a strange thought, but its something Ive noticed with my family travels. Its just a weird situation that we are cursed with from knowing "those days". The other item might not even be a cost issue, but a wear and tear issue...Ive noticed the average guest is just much more destructive than they used to be. Liter, overcrowding, ramming things with strollers/ECV and just general disrespect of the property is fairly common, which causes a day to day destruction that is beyond what used to be normal. Honestly, I fear the number of people WDW would need to hire just to keep up with all the incidental damage done today...There are only so many dents, dings, paint jobs and bulb changes you can get to in an average 8-9 hour down time.

 

[LuvWDW2]

@Bender123

I was typing your latest response almost verbatim. Again, I agree with all your points. It’s not any one thing but a combination of all of them.

 

[Bocabear]

I would not argue that show quality has dropped, its still lightyears beyond anybody else, which has a weird effect on us of being fantastic and horrible at the same time. We can see the decline, because we obsess over the days when seeing a burned out light bulb was almost unheard of.

What a new person sees is a park that is pristine, compared to anywhere else.

Its a strange thought, but its something Ive noticed with my family travels. Its just a weird situation that we are cursed with from knowing "those days". The other item might not even be a cost issue, but a wear and tear issue...Ive noticed the average guest is just much more destructive than they used to be. Liter, overcrowding, ramming things with strollers/ECV and just general disrespect of the property is fairly common, which causes a day to day destruction that is beyond what used to be normal. Honestly, I fear the number of people WDW would need to hire just to keep up with all the incidental damage done today...There are only so many dents, dings, paint jobs and bulb changes you can get to in an average 8-9 hour down time.

With the recent Universal projects, I would not say they are "light years" ahead anymore.. ahead, a bit, but not light years... Unless you are only comparing Disney to Six Flags....

 

[Bender123]

With the recent Universal projects, I would not say they are "light years" ahead anymore.. ahead, a bit, but not light years... Unless you are only comparing Disney to Six Flags....

Uni is variable...based on the area of the park. I would also say that Uni has improved far more than WDW has faltered. The problem that WDW had was they really didn't have competition or motivation to do better up until recently.

Realistically, they were competing against Six Flags and a slightly better Uni. What you are seeing with the flurry of activity at WDW is a response that is overdue, but not unwelcome. They have years to makeup and they are just doing a bunch of it at once. Hell...I still remember the assumption that Uni would cut spending with the Comcast buyout, because they "just weren't interested" in parks. If I recall, SWGE was not supposed to be as grand as it is in its original plans, but Potter showed WDW management that they couldn't do "basic" anymore...they had to increase their standards beyond minimal Disney expectations.

 

[LuvWDW2]

With the recent Universal projects, I would not say they are "light years" ahead anymore.. ahead, a bit, but not light years... Unless you are only comparing Disney to Six Flags....

And I dare say that quite a few guests only have Six Flags (or its equivalence) as a point of reference.

I’ve personally never been to US and probably never will. I’m not a super coaster fan (I’m good with EE & RnRC) and I’ve never seen or read anything Harry Potter related. There’s just no appeal for me and yet we have friends that are huge fans and don’t feel my way about Disney.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Nostalgia is a function of time and space...we spend a huge amount of time here discussing the golden age of WDW, when, realistically, that golden age would just not be a viable model for what people expect today.

Why is the old business mode not viable? Why is a theme park not viable? Those are the big underlying issues that do many have with the current direction of the parks, a business model from malls and a lack of consistent, strong storytelling. The bigger problem is not that the “new” Epcot has a different vision or idea, but that it has no vision or idea.

 

[Bocabear]

And I dare say that quite a few guests only have Six Flags (or its equivalence) as a point of reference.

I’ve personally never been to US and probably never will. I’m not a super coaster fan (I’m good with EE & RnRC) and I’ve never seen or read anything Harry Potter related. There’s just no appeal for me and yet we have friends that are huge fans and don’t feel my way about Disney.

The Potter additions changed the game...you have to experience them to get it. It is so much more fleshed out than any of the Disney theming.. Pandora is nice, but the Potter settings feel lived in, and magical.. There can always be debate about the actual rides which were groundbraking at their opening, but you can't argue the level of detail exceeding anything Disney has built to date... We will have to see where things go with Star Wars...

 

[tirian]

Hate to disagree, but feel I must add a comment from my personal experiences. A lot of those ride names are simply not household names. Many people think the Magic Kingdom = Disney World. Some even think it's called Disneyland. These people don't have any idea what Big Thunder Mountain Railroad is let alone what the Carousel of Progress is or what the Tiki Room is. I've even spoken with people who went to the parks who couldn't name even half of the rides they went on. It's crazy. I don't know how someone can go to Disney World on two different occasions and still calls the Magic Kingdom Disneyland, but alas, it happened.

Our group here, and those who are Disney fans, are hyper aware of what's going on at Walt Disney World. There's an entirely different group who don't have a clue. Nothing against those folks, but just adding that there's a large segment who doesn't research and doesn't know a thing about the four theme parks - or that there even are four theme parks.

I can't fault Disney for shifting in the direction that's more commonly known. It's by far the easier route. It may disappoint me some, but I can't say I fault them when I've seen the other side of the coin - the people who don't book FastPass+ reservations, don't do any advance planning and don't know the ride names.

But by the very existence of FP+, an App that never works consistently, 180-day restaurant reservations, and complicated ticket pricing structures, Disney isn’t helping those people at all. IP be d*mned if the experience is frustrating and overwhelming.

Attraction names never mattered. The experiences do.

 

[LuvWDW2]

The Potter additions changed the game...you have to experience them to get it. It is so much more fleshed out than any of the Disney theming.. Pandora is nice, but the Potter settings feel lived in, and magical.. There can always be debate about the actual rides which were groundbraking at their opening, but you can't argue the level of detail exceeding anything Disney has built to date... We will have to see where things go with Star Wars...

That’s my point: I’m not a Potter fan so I won’t get it. I’m sure it’s very nice (or TDO wouldn’t be responding as they are). But it wouldn’t be immersive to me.
I’ve never seen Avatar (still probably won’t) but I think Pandora is beautiful. I’m sure to some it’s not immersive enough because they are fans.

All I’m trying to do is to give a different perspective on how people view things. My view doesn’t negate your view. But your view doesn’t negate mine either.

 

[brb1006]

And I dare say that quite a few guests only have Six Flags (or its equivalence) as a point of reference.

I’ve personally never been to US and probably never will. I’m not a super coaster fan (I’m good with EE & RnRC) and I’ve never seen or read anything Harry Potter related. There’s just no appeal for me and yet we have friends that are huge fans and don’t feel my way about Disney.

Six Flags is infamous for having IP based rides but with a logo on it. Meanwhile their Looney Tunes Shows are pretty cheap.

 

[LuvWDW2]

Six Flags is infamous for having IP based rides but with a logo on it. Meanwhile their Looney Tunes Shows are pretty cheap.

Exactly. Pretty sure there’s nothing immersive or storytelling going on with their Batman ride. But people ride it for the thrill, not the logo.

 

[Bender123]

Why is the old business mode not viable? Why is a theme park not viable? Those are the big underlying issues that do many have with the current direction of the parks, a business model from malls and a lack of consistent, strong storytelling. The bigger problem is not that the “new” Epcot has a different vision or idea, but that it has no vision or idea.

Theme Parks are a viable model, Theme Parks as they were or imagined in the 1960s/70s are not. If Epcot was exactly the way it was in 1989...when all the attractions of classic "EPCOT Center" were fully operational, would we still think it would be a viable park in 2020? I love my kids, but I doubt they find a park filled with slow rides an enjoyable experience. Times change, tastes change...Not to dump a pile of pixie dust all over the situation, but it looks like WDW has successfully evolved their parks to fit the times and the average customer agrees. People like us...like or not...are the vast minority of their customers. We are not their target crowd. We are a valuable demographic, but our tastes are not what pays the bills.

 

[Bender123]

Exactly. Pretty sure there’s nothing immersive or storytelling going on with their Batman ride. But people ride it for the thrill, not the logo.

They are pretty funny...Here is a standard rollercoaster, but its red and blue and has wood cutouts of Superman characters, therefore its a themed Superman ride.

Actually, the Justice League dark rides at Six Flags parks are pretty impressive and immersive IP experiences. I sort of hope they keep coming out with rides that are similar, because its a good direction for their parks.