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EPCOTCenterLover

Well-Known Member
The expression meant (clearly) that something was 2,019 years old.

There was nothing derogatory said about Jesus.

If you think there was, show it.

You’re beginning to sound like the people who won’t let you draw a picture of Muhammed.
You can call me out if you wish or even insult me, but you’d be missing the point. As I tried to say earlier- respecting others religious beliefs should be as much a part of our conversations as respecting other aspects of each persons uniqueness. That and only that was my intent.
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
You can call me out if you wish or even insult me, but you’d be missing the point. As I tried to say earlier- respecting others religious beliefs should be as much a part of our conversations as respecting other aspects of each persons uniqueness. That and only that was my intent.

Nobody insulted any religion. It’s my religion, I should be offended if that were the case.

If you say, “My car is older than George Washington,” are you insulting George Washington?

That is all.
 

KINGLOUIS1993

Well-Known Member
Change is inevitable, and it's true...nothing IS sacred. Everything can be replaced. If Disney wanted to retheme Splash Mountain to a Zootopia ride tomorrow, they would. The people who complain about every little thing being changed are just as bad as the ones that claim that change is good.

CORRECT!
 

KINGLOUIS1993

Well-Known Member
two questions?
  1. who gets to decide what is "proper change"
  2. Why is IP drivel??

Exactly, it is all based on opinion. Why doesn't Galaxy's Edge not belong in a park?...Because the OP doesn't like it or the IP?

People are kidding themselves if they think that posts on this forum mean anything to the people at the top of Disney, money talks, if people keep going then they will keep the wheels in motion.

No matter what side of the fence you are on in this argument the change is inbound, like it or Hate it, It's coming, we are in 2019 the demographic will of course change. It is a Internationally acclaimed theme park, the most popular one at that, it isn't an exclusive club for people who want to ride the same rides as when the park opened. It needs to be a balance of nostalgia and modern, relevant attractions. I don't the anybody for liking or disliking attractions it is all about preference. Anyway I am looking forward to my visit in October all the way from Sunny Manchester.
 

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
I'm not into theme park design and further more have absolutely zero interest in ever knowing about theme park design. I think that's my point, how Epcot is supposed to be "designed" is pretty much number 101 on my list of 100 things I need for a successful disney vacation.

So here's my question, Why should I have to know about theme park design????
And that is perfectly fine, you don't have to know or care about it. My opinion is that a lot of people care more about the details than they actually think they do. Earlier you said you didn't care about the windows, they were just "charming ambiance and that is it." My argument is that the charming ambiance is subconsciously what sets Disney apart and why people end up with this attachment to the parks. As the impeccable detail and history erodes, like Frozens placement in Norway, it starts to lose some of what made it special. If all that history, detail and thought wasn't there from the beginning, maybe a lot of us don't have the same attachment. I don't necessarily know all the ingredients in my favorite meal, but if they start leaving out or using lesser quality ingredients, it just wont be the same.
 

Trackmaster

Well-Known Member
And that is perfectly fine, you don't have to know or care about it. My opinion is that a lot of people care more about the details than they actually think they do. Earlier you said you didn't care about the windows, they were just "charming ambiance and that is it." My argument is that the charming ambiance is subconsciously what sets Disney apart and why people end up with this attachment to the parks. As the impeccable detail and history erodes, like Frozens placement in Norway, it starts to lose some of what made it special. If all that history, detail and thought wasn't there from the beginning, maybe a lot of us don't have the same attachment. I don't necessarily know all the ingredients in my favorite meal, but if they start leaving out or using lesser quality ingredients, it just wont be the same.

People don't care about the wonders and details of indoor plumbing until they find themselves in a house without a working bathroom too. How about Disney gets rid of their bathrooms, they're just taking up space right? How about not more trashcans -- what's more boring that a trashcan!? How about queue lines, those are incredibly boring to stand in and we all hate waiting in line -- why not just let people line up wherever they want and sprawl the big boring line throughout the park for everyone to bump into. And traffic lights and stop signs. Who likes to wait at traffic lights and stop at stop signs? Just make the entire road system of the resort the Wild Wild West where everyone has to suck it up and driving around a madhouse -- wouldn't want boring traffic lights taking up the park's time.
 

KINGLOUIS1993

Well-Known Member
Hook 'em, Horns?

I was thinking more along the lines of "too sweet"

348718
 

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
People don't care about the wonders and details of indoor plumbing until they find themselves in a house without a working bathroom too. How about Disney gets rid of their bathrooms, they're just taking up space right? How about not more trashcans -- what's more boring that a trashcan!? How about queue lines, those are incredibly boring to stand in and we all hate waiting in line -- why not just let people line up wherever they want and sprawl the big boring line throughout the park for everyone to bump into. And traffic lights and stop signs. Who likes to wait at traffic lights and stop at stop signs? Just make the entire road system of the resort the Wild Wild West where everyone has to suck it up and driving around a madhouse -- wouldn't want boring traffic lights taking up the park's time.
I'm not sure I understand this response to what I said? I don't see how any of this ties to my post.
 

Trackmaster

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I understand this response to what I said? I don't see how any of this ties to my post.

I was agreeing with you. Small details that are unnoticed by guests help make the park what it is. Somebody else was saying before that they didn't care about details like that, and I was pointing out that you're not supposed to notice, but its supposed to help. Unless I've criss-crossed by threads or am really late to this thread.
 

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
I was agreeing with you. Small details that are unnoticed by guests help make the park what it is. Somebody else was saying before that they didn't care about details like that, and I was pointing out that you're not supposed to notice, but its supposed to help. Unless I've criss-crossed by threads or am really late to this thread.
Lol, ok I got it. It's still early. :)
 

Janir

Well-Known Member
In the "Inside Out Replacing Imagination" thread, it was recently revealed by @marni1971 that there is a possibility of the entire Imagination Pavilion being demolished, including the removal of Figment altogether. Shortly after this was revealed, I made the following comment in that thread, and @nated1226 suggested that an entire thread be created discussing my post.



Before I dive further into this, I want to clarify that I don't "hate" anyone specifically. I should have worded my first sentence a bit differently, because I was trying to say that I hate the direction that the fanbase is going.

So over the past several years, we have seen constantly rising prices, and many classic attractions have been removed in favor of attractions based on IP. While some IP attractions rightfully belong in the parks, there are many that are placed where they are unwanted by what I will call the "old style" Disney fans. Some examples would include Guardians of the Galaxy: Mission Breakout in DCA, UP: A Great Bird Adventure in DAK, and Frozen Ever After in EPCOT. It is also widely known that Walt Disney World has not received a new non-IP attraction since Expedition Everest opened in 2006. The question is why? Why has Disney abandoned what made them the king of themed entertainment in the first place, by bringing us things that we never knew we wanted, like Pirates of the Caribbean, Kilimanjaro Safaris, Horizons, Great Movie Ride, or the Enchanted Tiki Room? Up until recently, most, but not all, IP based attractions were reserved for Fantasyland, and those that weren't were used very carefully, such as Splash Mountain and Twilight Zone Tower of Terror. We are now living in a time where careful placement of IP has gone out the window, and we are seeing an unprecedented amount of IP attractions replacing old favorites.

So what changed? My theory is the fanbase.

With the rise of social media over the past several years, literally anybody, anywhere, can get behind a screen and voice their opinion, no matter how misguided it may be. This has caused lots of tension in society in general, not just among Disney fans. Before the rise of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, etc, Disney fans would congregate almost exclusively on forums such as this one. We were relatively unnoticed, and Disney had no reason to change their ways of doing business, because what they had been doing for decades worked extremely well. But now, Disney fans use new platforms to discuss the parks, with Twitter becoming the main hub for people to voice their thoughts. Unfortunately, a small group of people that had little understanding of what made the parks great began to grow, and they began to compete with each other for YouTube views, Twitter likes, and Instagram follows. These people often fight to be the first to purchase the newest popcorn buckets, review the newest cupcake flavor, or experience new attractions, without fully enjoying the experience because they are standing behind a smartphone camera and posting their location on the internet in real time for bragging rights.

So what is wrong with this?

The problem with these people is that they are far too often very soft when it comes to criticising Disney, and many of them glorify every single thing with the Disney name attached. Many of them could be compared to sheep, because they blindly go along with anything Disney does. This has caused Disney to become lazy with things that they paid extremely close attention to in the past, such as theming show buildings. For example, the very first "land" ever built in a Disney park, Main Street USA at Disneyland, was designed so that the buildings theme would be visible from every possible guest view, even outside of the park, whereas now, in the exact same theme park, the newest land, Star Wars: Galaxy's Edge (which qualifies as IP being shoehorned where it does not belong) is only themed from inside the park. Go to the top of the parking garage or the road behind Disneyland, and you will see that Galaxy's Edge is nothing but a facade attached to a warehouse.

Another issue with the new fans is that because they will accept whatever Disney throws their way, Disney knows that they can get away with basically anything, such as dramatic price increases or replacing classic attractions with very little fallout, whereas 20 or 25 years ago, they knew that it would be controversial. They now replace whatever doesn't make enough money for them, and the replacement attractions are typically built with the intent to sell merchandise. Its a win-win in Disney's eyes. They appease their "fans" (the ones that love everything Disney does and will drool over a 2 minute ride replacing an iconic 10 minute ride), and they make money from the general public (the once in a lifetime guests), who generally watch a movie at home, go to WDW and ride the corresponding ride, and take home a souvenir. I'm sure this is why Disney is now considering the removal of the Imagination Pavilion, because as sad as it is, a ride based off of a Pixar movie will sell more toys and shirts than Figment ever will, simply because of marketing.

So what can be done?

The "old style" fans have largely been silenced and pushed out by the new "hip" fans, and I fully expect that to continue. I never thought it would happen to this website, but I have even started to see it here. Those of us that care about preserving iconic experiences and attractions need to push back harder than ever before. We need to use the some of the same tactics that the new fans use, such as purchasing merchandise that is based on classic attractions. We should also be writing to Disney executives voicing our concerns with the current direction, and when we see someone defending a terrible Disney rumor or decision, we should push back and explain to them (politely) that what is happening is wrong and bad for the parks. If we continue to be silenced by the new majority, I can see a day where so many old school Disney experiences are lost that it will be too late.

We still have time. Some things have sadly been lost forever, but we need to focus on preserving what we still have, and the hope is that we can even undo some of the worst offenses someday, such as a removal of Pixar Pier and a triumphant return of Dreamfinder to the Imagination Pavilion.

I still have hope.

Great writeup.
I'm a new -old fan... only Disneyfied back in 2011 and yet being near 50 I feel more of a connection to the older IP/stuff in WDW/DL than the newer IP for everything. I guess I understand why Disney is focusing more on the newer IP but I would be nice if the Parks/ Resort group would try something non-IP for something. I'm not saying kill Star Wars:GE or Toys Story Land as the larger IP endeavors makes sense. But the smaller things getting a retheme just to retheme, Flights of Wonder to UP? Totally unneeded. Frozen in Norway? I like the ride but I'm not sure that still wouldn't have been better in MK and just kept Maelstrom. I never saw Figment in its original design, just online stuff, but there isn't a reason they couldn't refurb that back to the original concept.
I do think you're spot on on how social media has changed the Disney fanbase. It's gotten larger with more casual fans and Disney like many corporations today is just taking massaged marketing data and targeting stuff based upon the data with no real thought to the future or its own past. Used to be marketing was done by people who were looked at as the company genius for getting some product to market. Old school marketers used to develop a deeper understanding of their market and taylor things to the market that way and plan a long term roadmap. Our man Walt was fantastic at that. He knew his audience and was willing to take risks. He failed plenty of times and even many of his failures later became successes. The Disney Co. has lost a lot of that skill form CEO down through marketing sadly.
Maybe its the era we are begining to enter with social media or something else but like my father and grandfathers before me, they didn't like some of the new fangled innovations and changes in the world that were coming along and neither do I. :p
 

eliza61nyc

Well-Known Member
I got lost when I saw an argument about religion.

That was actually about language. someone got offended because we said some of the rides at disney were older than a "he who should not be named". evidently even mentioning the name of a deity is offensive. go figure. that led to a discussion about Political correctness and sensitivity. it never was about religion truly.

usually around the 5th or 6th page of a thread it always veers off topic.
 

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