Pandoran problems 4.25.18

[cspencer96]

On a second note: I do find it extremely odd that both on here and DisTwitter there is not a peep about what is going on in Pandora. I mean if someone farts on a ride there are 100 posts about it. One of the top attractions goes down for days and we have a complete blackout. No rumors, nothing...

There were plenty of peeps, all of which said that the problem was and still is with the fire detection system in the building giving false alarms and signal faults. They narrowed the issue down to Na’vi River’s portion of the building, it seems, and were working to resolve the issue. The attraction was testing late into the evening last night with Cast Members present. Safety is the number one priority, not whether once in a lifetime guests get to see the Shaman.

 

[mikejs78]

They have gone to one track and are using an alternate entrance and exterior queue. It is not a test of FP, it is a reconfiguration of the queue that has been planned since the third track was installed and Toy Story Land has been in the works.

Have you seen this? They said they were going down to one track but as of last week were still using two.

 

[mikejs78]

Just because the number of FPs is capped doesn’t mean it isn’t a “line.” A certain number of people get FPs for 2-3. If those are gone, they get them for 3-4. You are waiting to board a ride, you are simply doing so somewhere else. That is, for all intents and purposes, a line. And it effects the physical line.

There are a huge number of variables involved in this discussion, many of which we don’t have access to. Even if we did, I’m no mathematician. All I have is my own sense of logic, which might very well be deeply flawed. If you are drawing on peer-reviewed sources, I’d be very happy to look at them.

The problem with intuition and a personal sense of logic is that it can often be flawed. My sense of logic, for example, makes it clear that wait times are the exact same overall (total per individual and across the park), just distributed differently. Probably because I work with queing as a part of software engineering (whose concepts are similar.). At the end of the day though, both our senses of logic are subjective. What isn't subjective is math. If I have time this week, I'll try to work some of the math to illustrate how FP+ distributes crowds and wait times.

 

[Casper Gutman]

The problem with intuition and a personal sense of logic is that it can often be flawed. My sense of logic, for example, makes it clear that wait times are the exact same overall (total per individual and across the park), just distributed differently. Probably because I work with queing as a part of software engineering (whose concepts are similar.). At the end of the day though, both our senses of logic are subjective. What isn't subjective is math. If I have time this week, I'll try to work some of the math to illustrate how FP+ distributes crowds and wait times.

I’d be interested.

 

[celluloid]

Disney's agenda is the only one that matters and the point of fastpass was never to evenly spread the crowds or create demand for under utilized attractions, but rather to have guests walk by one more soda stand, walk thru one more gift shop as they virtually wait for their e-ticket. The issue for guests is people ride rides while waiting, and Disney is making lower efficieny output basedn rides than ever. The faulty agenda is anyone thinking fastpass was invented to actually shorten a line.

To tie this in to the point someone had about compensation or entitlement mentality. When you give those entitlements based on the tier system or amount of money you pay, even calling them that in the company's media, of course guests will precieve it that way. You can call it a reservation, a gentleman's agreement or whatever you care to, if the guests feel they are not getting their value than it is the envrionment that is created. Two major attractions both down for days certainly warrant some backlash of planning.
More cost consciences to place both attractions in one show building, but it will have it's cons as well as pros.

 

[JustInTime]

At least both are now open...

 

[larryz]

Anyone an electrician????View attachment 281040

Fire alarm system experience a plus!

 

[ford91exploder]

How the heck would that even occur. Disney's shops can produce pretty much any part they need. They can even carve the chassis for the Kilamanjaro trucks out of a single block of metal - and they've got several of the machines that do that.

With the relentless downsizing at WDW while I’m sure they have the machinery. They probably DONT have the people who know how to operate it any longer especially after AA maintenance was outsourced to Garner Holt. A good machinist with programming experience can make 85,000+. And Disney is not going to keep expensive resources like that around to handle an occasional part order. Disney will farm out jobs like that to any of the hundreds of firms on the spacecoast to handle the occasional need.

 

[peter11435]

With the relentless downsizing at WDW while I’m sure they have the machinery. They probably DONT have the people who know how to operate it any longer especially after AA maintenance was outsourced to Garner Holt. A good machinist with programming experience can make 85,000+. And Disney is not going to keep expensive resources like that around to handle an occasional part order. Disney will farm out jobs like that to any of the hundreds of firms on the spacecoast to handle the occasional need.

There you go spreading that same misinformation again. How many times do people have to tell you you’re wrong before you understand.

AA maintenance WAS NOT outsourced to garner holt.

Central shops still has the people and machinery to produce nearly anything.

As usual. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

 

[ford91exploder]

There you go spreading that same misinformation again. How many times do people have to tell you you’re wrong before you understand.

AA maintenance WAS NOT outsourced to garner holt.

Central shops still has the people and machinery to produce nearly anything.

As usual. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

It’s NOT speculation that WDI shed its industrial division and thats who those machinists worked for.

Note on this very thread disney is now groveling for electronic technicians who are a heck of a lot more prevalent than CNC programmers and cheaper too. And who SpaceX and NASA and Defense contractors pay a heck of a lot more for techs than Disney.

Its business 101 to get rid of expensive personnel who are not necessary to day to day operations.

If they dont have techs its not a stretch to conclude CNC programmers are also an endangered species if not extinct.

 

[peter11435]

It’s NOT speculation that WDI shed its industrial division and thats who those machinists worked for.

Note on this very thread disney is now groveling for electronic technicians who are a heck of a lot more prevalent than CNC programmers and cheaper too. And who SpaceX and NASA and Defense contractors pay a heck of a lot more for techs than Disney.

Its business 101 to get rid of expensive personnel who are not necessary to day to day operations.

If they dont have techs its not a stretch to conclude CNC programmers are also an endangered species if not extinct.

Disney still employees techs and machinists

WDI still has manufacturing capabilities.

Central shops and WDI are not the same thing.

Both are capable of manufacturing and production.

You don’t understand the Garner Holt deal

You don’t know what you are talking about.

 

[Chet Dakota]

Have you seen this? They said they were going down to one track but as of last week were still using two.

I was there on April 20 and they were only using one track, the newer one.

 

[tonymu]

The problem with intuition and a personal sense of logic is that it can often be flawed. My sense of logic, for example, makes it clear that wait times are the exact same overall (total per individual and across the park), just distributed differently. Probably because I work with queing as a part of software engineering (whose concepts are similar.). At the end of the day though, both our senses of logic are subjective. What isn't subjective is math. If I have time this week, I'll try to work some of the math to illustrate how FP+ distributes crowds and wait times.

I think we have been doing a bad job of explaining what we experience. I agree that the capacity of the rides do not change with or without fastpass. Before fastpass you did have to wait in lines and sometimes long lines. With fastpass, when you can get a slot scheduled you can usually walk on the ride in a very short period of time. Before fastpass a majority of the time, unless it was a new ride, you could pass a long line and come back later and find a shorter line. If it was a new ride you had no choice but to wait for a very long time. With fastpass if you do not have a fastpass you have to always wait in a very long line. Before fastpass the long lines moved constantly so you always felt like you were progressing towards getting on the ride. With fastpass the standby line often barely moves and you feel like you are never getting any closer to getting on the ride. Before fastpass you would enjoy all of the park in a casual manner. With fastpass your day is scheduled and you must always be aware of your schedule and often hustle back and forth across the park to keep the schedule.

I have created a little chart below to try more visually explain the difference we see between lines before fastpass and with fastpass. It may be flawed, but I don't think it is flawed. It shows a ride line without fastpass and with fastpass. Both versions of the line are for the same ride with the same capacity of people getting onto the ride in the same amount of time.

On the left side it has numbers in green representing people in line without fastpass and when they get on the ride. On the right side it shows the same line with the same standby people in line in green and fastpass people in red who are walking up and when they all get on the ride.

Without fastpass the 79th person in line gets on the ride in 7 mins.
With fastpass that same 79th person in the standby line gets on the ride in 21 mins

Without fastpass the 79th person in line is the 79th person to get on the ride.
With fastpass the 79th person in the standby line is the 208th person to get on the ride.

Without fastpass in 20 mins 207 people in line get on the ride
With fastpass in 20 mins the 78th person in the standby line get on the ride

Without fastpass in 1 hour 621 people in line get on the ride
With fastpass in 1 hour the 234th person in the standby line get on the ride

Without fastpass in 2 hours 1,242 people in line get on the ride
With fastpass in 2 hours the 468th person in the standby line get on the ride

(beyond 2 hours is probably overkill)
Without fastpass in 3 hours 1,863 people in line get on the ride
With fastpass in 3 hours the 702nd person in the standby line get on the ride

Without fastpass in 4 hours 2,484 people in line get on the ride
With fastpass in 4 hours the 936th person in the standby line get on the ride

The notion that one does not have to use fastpass if they do not want to schedule their day is true but you lose your whole day because you have to sit in much slower moving lines. So it is not practical to not use fastpass.

I get that a LOT of people love fastpass and scheduling so much of their vacation. A large percentage of those people only know a world with fastpass and scheduling so much of their vacation. I am not a nostalgic old person who is going to do it the old way no matter what. I adjust with the times and will make whatever system I have to work. In the days of the paper fastpasses and kiosks at each ride, I would send the family to a ride without fastpass and hustle with all the park tickets across the park to get us all fastpasses and then hustle back across the park to join them in the line and do this over and over until there were no fastpasses left. I am sure I would have been getting double to triple the steps of the rest of the family on any given day. At least with Fastpass+ you don't have to hustle back and forth across the park. You do now have to plan out exactly what you want to try to do 60 days ahead of time. I am not sure which is worse.

As a person who has been to the parks many times before and after fastpass I would still rather stand in a few longer lines that are moving and enjoy a more casual spontaneous vacation than the structured and scheduled one you have to take now.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I think we have been doing a bad job of explaining what we experience. I agree that the capacity of the rides do not change with or without fastpass. Before fastpass you did have to wait in lines and sometimes long lines. With fastpass, when you can get a slot scheduled you can usually walk on the ride in a very short period of time. Before fastpass a majority of the time, unless it was a new ride, you could pass a long line and come back later and find a shorter line. If it was a new ride you had no choice but to wait for a very long time. With fastpass if you do not have a fastpass you have to always wait in a very long line. Before fastpass the long lines moved constantly so you always felt like you were progressing towards getting on the ride. With fastpass the standby line often barely moves and you feel like you are never getting any closer to getting on the ride. Before fastpass you would enjoy all of the park in a casual manner. With fastpass your day is scheduled and you must always be aware of your schedule and often hustle back and forth across the park to keep the schedule.

I have created a little chart below to try more visually explain the difference we see between lines before fastpass and with fastpass. It may be flawed, but I don't think it is flawed. It shows a ride line without fastpass and with fastpass. Both versions of the line are for the same ride with the same capacity of people getting onto the ride in the same amount of time.

On the left side it has numbers in green representing people in line without fastpass and when they get on the ride. On the right side it shows the same line with the same standby people in line in green and fastpass people in red who are walking up and when they all get on the ride.

Without fastpass the 79th person in line gets on the ride in 7 mins.
With fastpass that same 79th person in the standby line gets on the ride in 21 mins

Without fastpass the 79th person in line is the 79th person to get on the ride.
With fastpass the 79th person in the standby line is the 208th person to get on the ride.

Without fastpass in 20 mins 207 people in line get on the ride
With fastpass in 20 mins the 78th person in the standby line get on the ride

Without fastpass in 1 hour 621 people in line get on the ride
With fastpass in 1 hour the 234th person in the standby line get on the ride

Without fastpass in 2 hours 1,242 people in line get on the ride
With fastpass in 2 hours the 468th person in the standby line get on the ride

(beyond 2 hours is probably overkill)
Without fastpass in 3 hours 1,863 people in line get on the ride
With fastpass in 3 hours the 702nd person in the standby line get on the ride

Without fastpass in 4 hours 2,484 people in line get on the ride
With fastpass in 4 hours the 936th person in the standby line get on the ride

The notion that one does not have to use fastpass if they do not want to schedule their day is true but you lose your whole day because you have to sit in much slower moving lines. So it is not practical to not use fastpass.

I get that a LOT of people love fastpass and scheduling so much of their vacation. A large percentage of those people only know a world with fastpass and scheduling so much of their vacation. I am not a nostalgic old person who is going to do it the old way no matter what. I adjust with the times and will make whatever system I have to work. In the days of the paper fastpasses and kiosks at each ride, I would send the family to a ride without fastpass and hustle with all the park tickets across the park to get us all fastpasses and then hustle back across the park to join them in the line and do this over and over until there were no fastpasses left. I am sure I would have been getting double to triple the steps of the rest of the family on any given day. At least with Fastpass+ you don't have to hustle back and forth across the park. You do now have to plan out exactly what you want to try to do 60 days ahead of time. I am not sure which is worse.

As a person who has been to the parks many times before and after fastpass I would still rather stand in a few longer lines that are moving and enjoy a more casual spontaneous vacation than the structured and scheduled one you have to take now.

View attachment 281137

This is a great post. Just to emphasize something you said, in the old days, someone familiar with the park knew various tactics to avoid lines, tactics that relied upon knowledge of traffic patterns and guest behavior, but often boiled down to, “if a line is too long, come back later, because the wait time will fluctuate - another good ride likely has a short wait right now.” FP+ made such tactics obsolete. Now, the lines are “balanced” - which means that at popular rides they may not spike quite as high (though I’m not sure we’ve seen evidence of this), but they also don’t fall as low, and EVERY ride is going to have a significant line. It’s part of WDW’s overall evolution to cater less to the repeat guest but more to the first timer willing to spend everything in one fell swoop.

 

[tonymu]

This is a great post. Just to emphasize something you said, in the old days, someone familiar with the park knew various tactics to avoid lines, tactics that relied upon knowledge of traffic patterns and guest behavior, but often boiled down to, “if a line is too long, come back later, because the wait time will fluctuate - another good ride likely has a short wait right now.” FP+ made such tactics obsolete. Now, the lines are “balanced” - which means that at popular rides they may not spike quite as high (though I’m not sure we’ve seen evidence of this), but they also don’t fall as low, and EVERY ride is going to have a significant line. It’s part of WDW’s overall evolution to cater less to the repeat guest but more to the first timer willing to spend everything in one fell swoop.

Exactly

 

[Jambo Joe]

I think we have been doing a bad job of explaining what we experience. I agree that the capacity of the rides do not change with or without fastpass. Before fastpass you did have to wait in lines and sometimes long lines. With fastpass, when you can get a slot scheduled you can usually walk on the ride in a very short period of time. Before fastpass a majority of the time, unless it was a new ride, you could pass a long line and come back later and find a shorter line. If it was a new ride you had no choice but to wait for a very long time. With fastpass if you do not have a fastpass you have to always wait in a very long line. Before fastpass the long lines moved constantly so you always felt like you were progressing towards getting on the ride. With fastpass the standby line often barely moves and you feel like you are never getting any closer to getting on the ride. Before fastpass you would enjoy all of the park in a casual manner. With fastpass your day is scheduled and you must always be aware of your schedule and often hustle back and forth across the park to keep the schedule.

I have created a little chart below to try more visually explain the difference we see between lines before fastpass and with fastpass. It may be flawed, but I don't think it is flawed. It shows a ride line without fastpass and with fastpass. Both versions of the line are for the same ride with the same capacity of people getting onto the ride in the same amount of time.

On the left side it has numbers in green representing people in line without fastpass and when they get on the ride. On the right side it shows the same line with the same standby people in line in green and fastpass people in red who are walking up and when they all get on the ride.

Without fastpass the 79th person in line gets on the ride in 7 mins.
With fastpass that same 79th person in the standby line gets on the ride in 21 mins

Without fastpass the 79th person in line is the 79th person to get on the ride.
With fastpass the 79th person in the standby line is the 208th person to get on the ride.

Without fastpass in 20 mins 207 people in line get on the ride
With fastpass in 20 mins the 78th person in the standby line get on the ride

Without fastpass in 1 hour 621 people in line get on the ride
With fastpass in 1 hour the 234th person in the standby line get on the ride

Without fastpass in 2 hours 1,242 people in line get on the ride
With fastpass in 2 hours the 468th person in the standby line get on the ride

(beyond 2 hours is probably overkill)
Without fastpass in 3 hours 1,863 people in line get on the ride
With fastpass in 3 hours the 702nd person in the standby line get on the ride

Without fastpass in 4 hours 2,484 people in line get on the ride
With fastpass in 4 hours the 936th person in the standby line get on the ride

The notion that one does not have to use fastpass if they do not want to schedule their day is true but you lose your whole day because you have to sit in much slower moving lines. So it is not practical to not use fastpass.

I get that a LOT of people love fastpass and scheduling so much of their vacation. A large percentage of those people only know a world with fastpass and scheduling so much of their vacation. I am not a nostalgic old person who is going to do it the old way no matter what. I adjust with the times and will make whatever system I have to work. In the days of the paper fastpasses and kiosks at each ride, I would send the family to a ride without fastpass and hustle with all the park tickets across the park to get us all fastpasses and then hustle back across the park to join them in the line and do this over and over until there were no fastpasses left. I am sure I would have been getting double to triple the steps of the rest of the family on any given day. At least with Fastpass+ you don't have to hustle back and forth across the park. You do now have to plan out exactly what you want to try to do 60 days ahead of time. I am not sure which is worse.

As a person who has been to the parks many times before and after fastpass I would still rather stand in a few longer lines that are moving and enjoy a more casual spontaneous vacation than the structured and scheduled one you have to take now.

View attachment 281137

Thanks for your effort - that describes what I was getting at in my comments a few days ago. it wasn’t about ride capacity - it was about spontaneity.

 

[DisneyMann]

This has got to be the most stunningly tone-deaf thing I have read on these forums in possibly years.

*NO* other theme park operates like this, so your logic is flawed from the start.

You might have had slightly more of a point before FP+, but this just more evidence of the utter absurdity of FP+ to begin with (scheduling FP weeks and months in advance). There are just too many variables, and when Disney has conditioned its guests to use the service they are paying for, and penalizing you left and right when you don't, saying it is all "optional just like any old theme park, ignore it" can only come from someone who can visit at leisure. Most folks cannot, and Disney is hell-bent on making you plan what park you do on what day ridiculously in advance.

Is it absurd for guests to expect Disney keep rides open every open hour every day of the year? Yes. Just as absurd as it is for DIsney to expect people to make FP+ reservations and schedule a ride to an hour window months in advance.

I still disagree and my logic isn't flawed. While yes, no other theme park operates like this, WDW in essence is unlike any other theme park in the world due to the staggering crowds coming from all parts of the globe.

FP+ has it's advantages and disadvantages but like I said it's still your choice to use them though.

Tone deaf...not even close. It's realistic and you don't agree. Move on then.

 

[BigThunderMatt]

What if you had paid for a one-day ticket to DAK for today for a family of 4? What is that with the taxes? Close to $500. (And yes people buy one-day tickets) You would be ok with that? You wouldn't go to GS?

If the only reason you paid $500 for those tickets was for 2 rides in a park, I'd say you should probably be more concerned about your spending habits.

 

[disneyflush]

If the only reason you paid $500 for those tickets was for 2 rides in a park, I'd say you should probably be more concerned about your spending habits.

Might be hitting a little too close to home for quite a few people on these boards, myself included.

 

[Incomudro]

If the only reason you paid $500 for those tickets was for 2 rides in a park, I'd say you should probably be more concerned about your spending habits.

This statement is so overly simplistic and condescending.
Certainly "2 rides in a park" is not the only reason a person would spend $500.00 to choose AK for that day.
Pandora is the new land not only in AK, but in all of WDW.
It is and has been highly hyped and highly anticipated.
Having it's two and only rides down, is not akin to Dumbo and the Teacups not working at Magic Kingdom.
This is like both Potter rides out of commission at Uni.
Probably worse, since the Potter Lands offer more to do outside of their two rides.