A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
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I don't even understand why anyone even reads those posts anymore... they are worse than jt now.

1-2 billion? A company on the rise is is going to sell for LESS than its open market share price??


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For those factually behind... disney's offer was only a 30% premium over existing trading. Never mind the PE ratio....

If MARVEL was so valuable as a property why other were there no other bidders????, There was no bidding war for MARVEL,

For the comprehension impaired things are worth precisely what people are willing to pay for them. At the time Disney vastly overpaid for MARVEL.
 

shernernum

Well-Known Member
From an unsubstantiated supposition: "Iger could have paid 1-2 billion."

You come to a definite conclusion of fact: "Iger had to have 'the biggest' comic book deal evah."

Do you even hear yourself being so blindly full of rage that you make such ridiculous jumps to conclusions?
These types of responses make me almost want to click on the "show ignored content" tab, so I can see what is being responded to. Then I realize it will probably just raise my blood pressure, and I come to my senses and move on.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
What evidence is there for paying 4 billion for Marvel being a 'no brainer'? Disney had already purchased another comic book company (CrossGen which also had a group of separately published lines of comics that had a variety of comic characters living in a shared universe) prior to that. There were also likely other comic book companies and/or super hero media and merchandising rights that they could have purchased from some companies.

Nah.

There are only two comic book companies that have any real general pop cultural value - Marvel, and DC. Yes, various indies (largely Image) have had a few one-off successes (Spawn, Walking Dead, etc.) but they are few and far between.

DC is simply unavailable. It is never coming out of Warner's hands.

The reason Marvel was such a no-brainer (just like Lucasfilm) is because of it's massive character library. That's why it was a brilliant long term investment. Disney already arguably had the premiere library of perennial characters, and adding both Marvel and Lucasfilm made that unquestionable.

What wasn't a no-brainer was creating the shared cinematic universe. That was just a stroke of brilliance - and was pretty bold. As anyone who grew up in the early generation of comic book films (197:cool:, it was always so weird that they almost all existed in a vacuum because no one dared do it. Disney also showed a lot of courage dumping hundreds of millions into films like GoG and Ant Man, who previously were unknown to the masses yet making huge successes of them.

At this point, I guess the argument doesn't matter - Marvel has more than proven itself at this point cinematically. It is not only the newest of the major cinematic franchises, but it is already by far the most profitable with the films grossing 12.6B and counting.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
If MARVEL was so valuable as a property why other were there no other bidders????, There was no bidding war for MARVEL,

Well one... they weren't being shopped around. Two, who else would pony up the money? Sony? You may want to take a look at their distractions...
For the comprehension impaired things are worth precisely what people are willing to pay for them. At the time Disney vastly overpaid for MARVEL.

So tell us top analyst what was the right price?

And at this point it's moot anyways... the deal paid off in spades more than anyone hoped. They call it a steal now.

But please, enlighten us on just how low marvel was going to sell for?
 

SpaceMountain77

Well-Known Member
@WDW1974 , if you need further evidence of the type of guest that vacations at Walt Disney World during a hurricane, take a look at this eBay listing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Walt-Disney...732769?hash=item283f8a7e61:g:kDcAAOSwT4tZugT~
eBay1.png eBay2.png eBay3.png
Hurricane Irma devastates the Caribbean and Florida and this guest seeks to make $289.00 off of the tragedy of others. Maybe this individual is looking to cover her/his check from Citricos?

This is precisely why Disney shreds pieces of attractions (e.g., Great Movie Ride, World of Motion) and puts them in pins, because of actions like this eBay listing.
 
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Monorail_Orange

Well-Known Member
@WDW1974 , if you need further evidence of the type of guest that vacations at Walt Disney World during a hurricane, take a look at this eBay listing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Walt-Disney...732769?hash=item283f8a7e61:g:kDcAAOSwT4tZugT~

Hurricane Irma devastates the Caribbean and Florida and this guest seeks to make $289.00 off of the tragedy of others. Maybe this individual is looking to cover her/his check from Citricos?

This is precisely why Disney shreds pieces of attractions (e.g., Great Movie Ride, World of Motion) and puts them in pins, because of actions like this eBay listing.
What a jerk. It's blowhards like that that give eBay a bad name.
 

5thGenTexan

Well-Known Member
The big value of Marvel -- and DC -- is not in the movies and you shouldn't be focusing on that. The value is on the merchandising. Do you realize how much crap you can buy with Spider-Man on it? I'm not just taking toys, but shirts, bikes, sleeping bags, bedsheets, all that stuff. That, much like Star Wars, is where the real money is for ownership of these IPs.

 

bclane

Well-Known Member
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Princess parade at the Grand Floridian! I know the Disney resorts are crazy expensive, but it's magical moments like this that keep people coming back. Of course I'm not staying here. I just brought a friend here today who wanted to see the resorts around the lagoon. Now we're at Animal Kingdom lodge eating zebra domes as fast as we can get them in our mouths. Lol!
 

brb1006

Well-Known Member
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Princess parade at the Grand Floridian! I know the Disney resorts are crazy expensive, but it's magical moments like this that keep people coming back. Of course I'm not staying here. I just brought a friend here today who wanted to see the resorts around the lagoon. Now we're at Animal Kingdom lodge eating zebra domes as fast as we can get them in our mouths. Lol!
Say what you will about the Disney Parks, but I love the small stuff characters and CM's can do at the hotels. Such as this video from Disneyland.
 

bclane

Well-Known Member
Say what you will about the Disney Parks, but I love the small stuff characters and CM's can do at the hotels. Such as this video from Disneyland.

Ah, I love that the characters were watching cartoons with the kiddos. Such a sweet moment in time! I still remember when I was 6 and was watching the parade at MK and Pooh bear came up and gave me the biggest hug. My parents were going through a rough divorce and I was not taking it well. But I will never forget how loved I felt that moment as a child and it is all thanks to some kind soul in a Winnie the Pooh costume. God bless whoever was in that costume because they really brought the magic to this little boy so many years ago.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
If all of these acquisitions were 'so obvious', why did other studios ineptly sit by and let Disney slowly accumulate a stronghold of "childhood" for the last decade?

I like Eisner's first decade, but he arguably never successfully launched a theme park that Disney owns. He really seemed to care and love the parks though. Iger has successfully launched one that Disney half-owns, fixed up a few blunders, let a few others continue to rot until the 13th hour.

That's how I see things. Eisner made oh so many more swings, but so many misses in the tail end of his career. Iger just takes a few measured, overly calculated/dull swings.
 

No Name

Well-Known Member
Illumination is looking for Animators to work on a theme park project featuring animatronics. That would be a first for an attraction based on illumination IP.
https://jobs.lever.co/illuminationentertainment/defd2ecf-1b93-4eeb-add2-b66049b82fab

It's for the Secret Life of Pets ride.

Rumors have it being a non-screen-heavy LPS ride taking over the Shrek area. It looks like they're going to spin the area off into an Illuminations land, which is kind of stupid. But the ride itself sounds good.
 

FigmentJedi

Well-Known Member
What wasn't a no-brainer was creating the shared cinematic universe. That was just a stroke of brilliance - and was pretty bold. As anyone who grew up in the early generation of comic book films (197:cool:, it was always so weird that they almost all existed in a vacuum because no one dared do it. Disney also showed a lot of courage dumping hundreds of millions into films like GoG and Ant Man, who previously were unknown to the masses yet making huge successes of them.

At this point, I guess the argument doesn't matter - Marvel has more than proven itself at this point cinematically. It is not only the newest of the major cinematic franchises, but it is already by far the most profitable with the films grossing 12.6B and counting.

Neither Disney or Marvel created the Cinematic Universe. Universal Studios and Toho beat them to the punch decades ago.


 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
The IP acquisitions aren't bad deals for the company. They are bad for the long term identity and soul of Disney because Disney is no longer the focus. General Motors of the entertainment industry, if you will.

Gary Snyder's essay is still prescient.
http://huffpost.com/us/entry/6520290
Disney CEO Readies Magic Carpet for Exit
You know them well. Perhaps too well.

The Fab Five and their friends.

From Kermit the Frog to Buzz Lightyear. From Iron Man to Darth Vader.

Among the stable of American cultural touchstones, they stand emblematic as a cross-generational binder of a people and a product. More a symbol of America in its minted-by-Wall-Street and cemented-on-Main-Street role as a global ambassadorthan Lady Liberty herself, the Walt Disney Company has risen from a cartoon maker of its eponymous animator to a warehouse of media brands unrivaled in its sheer breadth.

And it is that last part that might well be a big part of why the 'remaking' of Disney under the direction of outgoing Chairman and CEO Robert A. "Bob" Iger may well signal the decline of the brand itself. Mickey Mouse is Disney. Minnie Mouse and Donald Duck are Disney. As are Pluto and Goofy. But, once we move beyond the endearingly drawn and meticulously marketed page jumpers sketched by Disney -- the man and not the brand -- and his Nine Old Men, the marquee becomes harder to define as being Disney.

Such was the intent of Bob Iger when he succeeded Michael D. Eisner in his transition from one-time weatherman to programming executive and now chieftain of a media empire. A noted manager and delegator, two defining words not in sync with the traditional studio head, Iger went about acquiring content creators as the steward of America's premier producer of content that defied the limits of age and transcended cultures.

With success unrivaled, it is hard to conceive how the man who delivered for Wall Street, for the financial community, could have somehow diminished the brand or worse. Then again, it is often difficult to analyze the climb from the summit. Still, the fall is a given.

"It's in our best interest to put some of the old rules aside and create new ones and follow the consumer -- what the consumer wants and where the consumer wants to go," said Mr. Iger back in 2005.

Disney, Walt Disney, understood the people and the product. He knew of the wants of the consumer, often before they themselves knew, and the needs of the machine of manufacture. He also instilled a sense of significance at his company of the work being done and for the workers, or cast members in Disney jargon, doing it.

As Mr. Eisner said to the Harvard Business Review in February of 2000:

[A] few years ago, I was walking around Walt Disney World, midnight, by myself. I got to a pavilion that was being renovated. I figured I would climb over the barricade and see what was going on. I started walking around, and pretty fast a junior security officer came toward me with a flashlight. I introduced myself. Luckily he had heard of me. So, we got talking, and he knew where all the plans were. He wasn't involved in the construction at all, but he knew all about it. He was interested. He cared. He went through every page of the plans with me. He knew everything, and he really was passionate and intelligent about the project. It was obvious to me that this guy was special.
Now, while it can rightfully be said that times change, the life cycle of a brand is dictated by its ability to deliver the product welcomed by a wanting marketplace. When that product drifts into territory foreign to the consumer, the once reliable revenue streams created by these individual consumers will follow.

To date, the Walt Disney Company has largely drawn from the remainder. A sizable crowd, no doubt. But, there is a difference between the toe-dipper and the marathoner. For years, for generations, Disney has been the ultimate beneficiary of the latter. Successively, without pause, families turned to Disney for their prepackaged entertainment of all sorts.

And as Ron Suskind -- whose son Owen is autistic -- documented in his book Life, Animated about piercing the autism spectrum through the dialogue and songs of Disney's animated movies, so strong is the bond between the product and the people that Disney's content has even been adapted for therapy.

Whether speaking of an outing to the multiplex to catch the latest from its feature animation division, raiding the store aisles of its consumer products division's offerings or making that pilgrimage to Walt Disney World or Disneyland, the Walt Disney Company has delivered without fail.

In the cyber world, Disney has built a fountainhead of near-endless adulation that runs perilously close to cult status. While in the world outside of its electronic confines, families have even migrated from points afar to build "the Disney Driven life" centered at or adjacent to Disney's parks and resorts.

But, perhaps as the bellwether of the new century and new economy, even among these most loyal and forgiving of fans of all that represents the iconic Disney brand a splintering of sorts has challenged whether Disney is deserving of such praise and devotion.

Drawn from a report co-authored by this contributor:

Starting in the mid-1990s, superfanAl Lutz became a prominent voice on the Disney brand as the Burbank-based media behemoth increasingly relied on the cash heavy theme parks and resorts as a backstop for failures and deficiencies in other segments of the company. Using at first the MousePlanet.com imprimatur and later that of MiceChat.com, Lutz championed the vaunted Disney of Walt's day.Delivering management changes at the parks, specifically in Anaheim at the industry making Disneyland, Mr. Lutz became a well-known personality and pundit of the Disney product from the consumers' lens. With that, for the first time, Disney found itself being questioned not by Wall Street but by Main Street.
Not long after Mr. Lutz launched into the Disney-verse, Stephen Frearson, an import from the United Kingdom, premiered wdwmagic.com -- a Walt Disney World centered site. And around both, communities grew and conversations were had. Still today, these conversations occur with regularity. Only, the dollars spent on Disney by these most devoted of fans have dwindled.

Visit any one of these sites today and you will likely find discussions ranging from the minutia of Disney's parks and resorts to the import facing the Walt Disney Company with no apparent successor in place for the Wall Street-maker and Main Street-breaker Bob Iger. Who, somewhat ironically, was ushered into his role as CEO by Walt's nephew, the late Roy E. Disney, after the twenty-one year tenure of Mr. Eisner.

Now, as the play is on for that post, Disney has few inside candidates for the role. Disney CFO Jay Rasulo, an often puckish glad-hander, and Parks & Resorts Chairman Tom Staggs, an oddly waifish man of anemic personality, are the only two names in the already full throttle effort to succeed Iger. In 2010, they actually swapped jobs. Yet, with pause, many media types note that Disney experienced the greatest period of growth in the company's history when it last went outside of the company to fill the top spot.

That was in 1984, when Sid Bass and Roy Disney brought Michael Eisner on board along with Frank Wells and Jeffrey Katzenberg.

In spite of his effortless transition from an entertainment executive into an 'Uncle Walt'-like figure and widely admired media head, Mr. Eisner was ultimately dismissed from a company he is both credited with having saved and criticized for having somehow diminished. And yet, it is Bob Iger who has almost certainly done the latter by approaching a creative powerhouse like a floor manager at a manufacturing camp on the outskirts of Shenzhen.

In his successor, it may now be time, for only the second time since its founding in 1923 as the Disney Brothers Cartoon Studio, for the Walt Disney Company to close the door on rotating internal candidates into this role and bring back the perspective only an outsider can deliver.

As to the consumer, whose focus is not on slick and sappy marketing but the actual product delivered, Disney is not a jumble or inventory of creative content. It is not a Time Warner or a Comcast. Disney has the liability and the gift of being Disney.

Only these days, more of its most zealous followers are straying as they question whether Disney remains Disney. Whether the company that delivered Steamboat Willie and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs has any connection -- any sense of heritage -- with a company spitting out popcorn and pop culture products under the shingles of Marvel Entertainment and Lucasfilm placed upon a castle built by a man named Walt Disney.

Or, for that matter, a studio stuck in a cycle of sequels named Pixar led by the equally entrenched John Lasseter and Ed Catmull.

"Sometimes you just have to be there with your people. You have to be in the same room with them, look them in the eyes, hear their voices," said former Disney CEO Eisner.

As his successor Mr. Iger said at the Vanity Fair New Establishment Summit held just last fall of the typical Disney consumer, "We have no idea who they are. We don't know what they are willing to spend, what they like and what they don't like."

Walt knew. Michael too. Gary Snyder is a member of the Redstone family, whose company, National Amusements, owns Viacom and CBS, among other media assets. He is an advisor on Western media and culture to China.
 

2351metalcloud

Active Member
Well one... they weren't being shopped around. Two, who else would pony up the money? Sony? You may want to take a look at their distractions...

Universal/Comcast, Fox/News Corp, Sony would all have some vested reason to buy it due to previous interactions with Marvel. Universal's situation I mentioned previously and Fox and Sony had both previously made movies with Marvel characters and considered creating some other movies that were never made: http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Undeveloped_Movies

The difference was 'wide appeal' - People weren't actually all that interested in 'comic book' stuff, that had been kind of cordoned off as niche and dying.

Marvel filed for bankruptcy in 1996. Batman Forever was 5th in the box office for films released in 1995 and Men in Black (based on a comic owned by Marvel at the movie's release) was 3rd in the box office for movies released in 1997.


Nah.

There are only two comic book companies that have any real general pop cultural value - Marvel, and DC.
...
The reason Marvel was such a no-brainer (just like Lucasfilm) is because of it's massive character library. That's why it was a brilliant long term investment. Disney already arguably had the premiere library of perennial characters, and adding both Marvel and Lucasfilm made that unquestionable.
...
Disney also showed a lot of courage dumping hundreds of millions into films like GoG and Ant Man, who previously were unknown to the masses yet making huge successes of them.

If Disney paying 4 billion for Marvel was a no brainer and Marvel having such a big list of characters that have appeared in printed and electronic media previously was correctly perceived as a big reason for buying them, then I don't think it makes much sense for it to be considered courageous for Disney to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on movies like Ant Man and GotG.

It's possible to make new superheros for movies and tv shows that people will go to see. Even Sky High had a decent return on what it reportedly cost to make according to Wikipedia. Static Shock, Ben 10, and the Incredibles weren't read by many people in comics that also watched the shows/movies. The same is true for some other superheros in other shows/movies even if they had appeared in comic books for decades before the show/movie. That was basically the case for Iron Man. The history of GotG was close to unknown to the general American public, European public, and people elsewhere prior to the purchases of Marvel. They weren't much more well-known than the Rocketeer prior to his movie or Delilah Dirk prior to Disney getting her movie rights and possibly less so in Delilah Dirk's case.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Neither Disney or Marvel created the Cinematic Universe. Universal Studios and Toho beat them to the punch decades ago.

Of course there are other cinematic universes, LOL.

But not with comic book films, and even outside of comics - nothing like this has ever been pulled off. You know what I am talking about. ;)

There have been nods and brief cameos (though the majority of the latter never made it past the script stages), but nothing like this was ever attempted before, and it was against all conventional wisdom for comic characters. This was for lots of reasons - many of them business related - and that's why Disney was the perfect place for them, and Lucasfilm. They had the money to fund the films, the studio to make them, and the best merchandising experience in the business.

So yes, it was a bold move for the right company at the right time.

The IP acquisitions aren't bad deals for the company. They are bad for the long term identity and soul of Disney because Disney is no longer the focus. General Motors of the entertainment industry, if you will.

Eh, I don't see it that way. That sort of feels like how the first born feels when their parents have another kid. They aren't replacing Snow White and Cinderella. Yes, the parks are a different story, I understand people feel they are invading. But as a whole, it doesn't make sense for Disney to have built this empire and business model for content creation and not try to expand on it.

Let's face it, as much as people of all ages might love them, the company would have always been inherently limited in it's reach if it just stayed with characters who's largest audience was 2 to 9 year-old's. If it wasn't for Pixar, that would mean being largely be limited to your main earning audience further to only 2 to 9 year-old girls. That's pretty narrow, even if you manage to capture some to become life-long fans.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
If Disney paying 4 billion for Marvel was a no brainer and Marvel having such a big list of characters that have appeared in printed and electronic media previously was correctly perceived as a big reason for buying them, then I don't think it makes much sense for it to be considered courageous for Disney to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on movies like Ant Man and GotG.

It's possible to make new superheros for movies and tv shows that people will go to see. Even Sky High had a decent return on what it reportedly cost to make according to Wikipedia. Static Shock, Ben 10, and the Incredibles weren't read by many people in comics that also watched the shows/movies. The same is true for some other superheros in other shows/movies even if they had appeared in comic books for decades before the show/movie. That was basically the case for Iron Man. The history of GotG was close to unknown to the general American public, European public, and people elsewhere prior to the purchases of Marvel. They weren't much more well-known than the Rocketeer prior to his movie or Delilah Dirk prior to Disney getting her movie rights and possibly less so in Delilah Dirk's case.

I'd really have to disagree with the idea that Disney could have just started creating all kinds of new superheroes. Most of the things you are citing are some form of parody or satirical take. But hold on that one for a second.

First, because I know someone is going to say "why do they need superheroes?" - they do. Superheroes aren't just popular right now because that's what is being pushed. Superheroes have a history of popularity where they come back every couple of decades in a big way with the general public.

So that looks cyclical, right? Until you realize that it's not just because "every 20 years or so people get interested again" - it's because we tend to get involved in major world conflicts every twenty years or so, too. I mean, Superheros had their first hurrah in terms of everyone knowing their names in WWII. When you look back, the peaks of Superhero popularity are remarkably tied. And where are we now - in the middle of the longest war ever, with no signs of it letting up. In times like these, people don't want to be entertained by reality - they want good guys and bad guys and the bad guys to lose. Even today - even when Captain America and Iron Man are fighting, we know they are both good guys.

Once you realize Superheroes are the thing and are going to be around for awhile, it doesn't make a ton of sense to start from scratch when a huge existing library already exists. The very thing you are pointing out - how many "unknowns" there were to popular culture as a whole, is precisely why.

There *are* a limited number of Superheroe archetypes. Really. Sure, you can keep coming up with goofy names, and different ways to combine powers, and mix and match origin stories - but the existing Superheroes already uncomfortably bump up against each other as it is. Quicksilver vs. Flash. And even in their own universes - Joker/Riddler, Batman/Green Arrow. Disney would have had a hard time getting into the "Serious Superhero" business with all-new characters and would have risked a whole lot more trying to make them than just purchasing an entire, pre-made stable with the benefit of all those "unknowns" in there to mine for years to come.
 

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