A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

[Magic Feather]

Curious ... when did you visit SDL and for how many days?

BTW, SDL suffers mightily from not having either Small World or a RR. I feel those are just musts for a castle park.

Actually visited SDL around mid-July this year, for about 1.5 park days and .5 for Disneytown (which is more of a Main Street than Mickey Avenue Plaza). In addition the Railroad and Small World, SDL is also missing a road. When you think about it, Mickey "Avenue" is wider than long,, Tommorowland is a plaza. Adventureland 1 and Two are open facing to water. FL has a building on one side, and a maze or tree or boat on the other. It just feels... Too open.

 

[VJ]

It doesn't seem like the same company that created DL and the MK etc also built this.

To be blunt, that's because it isn't the same company. Disney is a much, much different animal than it was in the 50s and even the 70s. But I get your point, they should be getting better, not worse. Though, some things have to be left up to the guests themselves..

 

[BrianLo]

The line up, as @lazyboy97o mentioned in the waning days of the Valentine thread, feels like a UNI park along with the heavy focus on rides for young people.

I don't think that's fully what he meant in that context. Lazyboy didn't mention rides too focused on young people - I assume you mean teen appealing thrill rides? If you actually seriously consider the lineup there are only two thrill rides: Tron and Roaring Rapids.

I think comparing it to a Universal model sweepingly misses the point. The attraction lineup is in no way one note, focuses solely on a limited demographic or consists of a series of rides in a box. Shanghai does not feel like a park current Universal would be capable of building. The lands are still catch-alls rather than Franchise the land. It is however very IP driven and throws out classic theme park lessons for that sake of being different, that should have never been thrown out. Tomorrowland however treds the closet to feeling like a Universal park.

It's kind of like they decided to model a castle park off the guest flow of Epcot, without the density of placemaking or the focus on capacity. I don't want to accuse Epcot of not being charming, but there is a certain amount of utilitarian design decisions. Shanghai Disneyland is badly executed utilitarian in more than one circumstance.

 

[tirian]

Two.

Three four-year terms. Edit: I consider all versions of the snow globe parade to be the same parade.

 

[VJ]

The only other SQS issue we had was on our very last ride on Pirates when the Davy Jones AA, which is the most impressive I have ever seen, was also inop and simply sat at his organ with his back to the riders.

He was sleeping. Like in the movie!

 

[lazyboy97o]

Actually visited SDL around mid-July this year, for about 1.5 park days and .5 for Disneytown (which is more of a Main Street than Mickey Avenue Plaza). In addition the Railroad and Small World, SDL is also missing a road. When you think about it, Mickey "Avenue" is wider than long,, Tommorowland is a plaza. Adventureland 1 and Two are open facing to water. FL has a building on one side, and a maze or tree or boat on the other. It just feels... Too open.

Probably it’s most fundamental problem, one that really cannot be solved with expansion, is that Shanghai Disneyland is composed of a series of edge conditions. Instead of space making objects, the park is a series of objects in space. This demonstrates the failures associated with the veneerification of theme as themed experience is built on entering and inhabiting a highly choreographed series of spaces. Shanghai Disneyland is like a series of strip malls and no amount of ostentatious ornament will give it the unique vitality of an urban square.

 

[ford91exploder]

I know you get a tough time here, often brought on by your own words, but the above is absolutely true.

Let's just say in real life I play a lot tougher rooms than this one, I say what I think, I don't say what I think will be popular.

 

[ford91exploder]

We are in a transition period right now ... things will be vastly different by WDW's 50th. And the first changes are very likely coming by early next year.

One of those steps to 'Improve Margin at the parks' from yesterdays earnings call.

Yup Disney will never charge for FP.

It was obvious from the beginning that as FP was App based rather than kiosk based that monetizing FP was the goal.

 

[ford91exploder]

Probably it’s most fundamental problem, one that really cannot be solved with expansion, is that Shanghai Disneyland is composed of a series of edge conditions. Instead of space making objects, the park is a series of objects in space. This demonstrates the failures associated with the veneerification of theme as themed experience is built on entering and inhabiting a highly choreographed series of spaces. Shanghai Disneyland is like a series of strip malls and no amount of ostentatious ornament will give it the unique vitality of an urban square.

Beautifully stated!

 

[ford91exploder]

I like Buzz much better then Midway Mania because it's an actual dark ride and not just a Wii game on a track.

Same here

 

[SoManyWasps]

One of those steps to 'Improve Margin at the parks' from yesterdays earnings call.

Yup Disney will never charge for FP.

It was obvious from the beginning that as FP was App based rather than kiosk based that monetizing FP was the goal.

It was kind of inevitable. Frankly, I'm shocked it hasn't happened by now. Universal seems happy with the returns on their FP for $ program. If there's a way to squeeze just a little more blood out of a stone, wall street will find and demand it.

 

[ford91exploder]

It was kind of inevitable. Frankly, I'm shocked it hasn't happened by now. Universal seems happy with the returns on their FP for $ program. If there's a way to squeeze just a little more blood out of a stone, wall street will find and demand it.

As am I. Remember back in 2015 when TSMM went FP only for a couple of weeks. I figured then that Tier 1 rides were going to cost money. Just imagine. 130 bucks a day to get in and a MAGICal 9.95 per FP if you want to ride the headliners. I am so OVER the nickle and diming at Disney owned parks.

 

[danv3]

One of those steps to 'Improve Margin at the parks' from yesterdays earnings call.

Yup Disney will never charge for FP.

It was obvious from the beginning that as FP was App based rather than kiosk based that monetizing FP was the goal.

It's amazing to me that people ever doubted this was coming.

 

[SoManyWasps]

As am I. Remember back in 2015 when TSMM went FP only for a couple of weeks. I figured then that Tier 1 rides were going to cost money. Just imagine. 130 bucks a day to get in and a MAGICal 9.95 per FP if you want to ride the headliners. I am so OVER the nickle and diming at Disney owned parks.

I don't expect it to go that far. I do however anticipate fastpasses and the more desirable dining locales becoming the premium experience, while the low-rent experience will feature standby lines and significant wait times for quick service dining. Frankly, I'd be for it if it brought down the price of a one day ticket by 20%. I don't need to hit every ride/show/meal every time I'm in the parks, and if I can get a discount for embracing that attitude I would probably visit more often.

 

[lazyboy97o]

How much of SDL's crowd problems, in the park, stem from attractions with low capacity like Soaring, RR, SDMT and Tron?

Also, what was the age composition of the SDL crowds and how did different age groups experience the park?

The line up, as @lazyboy97o mentioned in the waning days of the Valentine thread, feels like a UNI park along with the heavy focus on rides for young people.

I don't think that's fully what he meant in that context. Lazyboy didn't mention rides too focused on young people - I assume you mean teen appealing thrill rides? If you actually seriously consider the lineup there are only two thrill rides: Tron and Roaring Rapids.

I think comparing it to a Universal model sweepingly misses the point. The attraction lineup is in no way one note, focuses solely on a limited demographic or consists of a series of rides in a box. Shanghai does not feel like a park current Universal would be capable of building. The lands are still catch-alls rather than Franchise the land. It is however very IP driven and throws out classic theme park lessons for that sake of being different, that should have never been thrown out. Tomorrowland however treds the closet to feeling like a Universal park.

It's kind of like they decided to model a castle park off the guest flow of Epcot, without the density of placemaking or the focus on capacity. I don't want to accuse Epcot of not being charming, but there is a certain amount of utilitarian design decisions. Shanghai Disneyland is badly executed utilitarian in more than one circumstance.

@BrianLo is correct that my comment regarding Shanghai Disneyland being like a Universal park was not about demographics. Instead I was commenting on the focus on a few marquee attractions that, while born out of the original studio, was probably best defined by Islands of Adventure. Instead of many smaller experiences, the efforts are put into fewer, bigger attractions. Unfortunately the costs of smaller attractions are almost never justified after opening but big attractions always bring in more people. The result is parks that do not draw guests into the world of each land, encourage shotgunning attractions and don’t handle crowds well.

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

Actually visited SDL around mid-July this year, for about 1.5 park days and .5 for Disneytown (which is more of a Main Street than Mickey Avenue Plaza). In addition the Railroad and Small World, SDL is also missing a road. When you think about it, Mickey "Avenue" is wider than long,, Tommorowland is a plaza. Adventureland 1 and Two are open facing to water. FL has a building on one side, and a maze or tree or boat on the other. It just feels... Too open.

Probably it’s most fundamental problem, one that really cannot be solved with expansion, is that Shanghai Disneyland is composed of a series of edge conditions. Instead of space making objects, the park is a series of objects in space. This demonstrates the failures associated with the veneerification of theme as themed experience is built on entering and inhabiting a highly choreographed series of spaces. Shanghai Disneyland is like a series of strip malls and no amount of ostentatious ornament will give it the unique vitality of an urban square.

I've only been able to look at photos and walk through videos (which I admit is never the same as being there) but agree completely based on what I've seen. I'd also add two other things that make the park look "off" to me:

- Scale: too many buildings just seem too "big" for lack of a better word. Starting right at the entrance with the train-station-that's-not-really-a-station to the castle to all of Tomorrowland. The structures are quite detailed ornate when looked at individually, but detail ornamentation alone =/= theme, and they don't ever feel connected to their surroundings. And their large size means they feel inhuman when you're standing next to them, dwarfed by their mass. All the open space in the park doesn't help either; that's why the Imagination Gardens in front of the castle feel like a big area of nothing - it's because they are. They're beautiful, but they're too big with not enough stuff to focus on, which leads to the second issue...

- "Weenies" (or lack thereof): the things to which your eyes are drawn. When you walk through SDL, too much of your view is trees and lampposts followed by more trees and lampposts. There's nothing in the distance that grabs your attention, no structure to focus on. Too often you're walking alongside something, rarely toward anything (just like you would at a strip mall). For example, as you enter Tomorrowland from the "hub" at SDL, all you really see are trees and lampposts. Contrast that to the MK, where the entrance arch, Astro Obiter and Peoplemover all draw your eyes down the walkway and give you successive focal points. It's another reason why the Imagination Gardens don't really work at SDL. Stand at their center and your view is basically of, you guessed it, trees and lampposts. Stand at the center of the MK Hub and you see the walkways leading toward Adventureland, Liberty Square, and Tomorrowland, each providing a small glimpse into each land.

For me, SDL is an example of Disney forgetting how to properly "stage" a theme park. It's not enough to have a few big, impressive buildings plopped around the park. There needs to be a build up, a connective "set design" if you will, to pull everything together and evoke a transportive feeling. The Disney castle parks have always been good at doing that, but with Shanghai it's like Disney didn't care, didn't bother, or just plain failed in the execution.

 

[Mike S]

Really? No one puts a link in the other thread?

Thanks a lot guys. Looks like I have some catching up to do.

 

[EricsBiscuit]

I've only been able to look at photos and walk through videos (which I admit is never the same as being there) but agree completely based on what I've seen. I'd also add two other things that make the park look "off" to me:

- Scale: too many buildings just seem too "big" for lack of a better word. Starting right at the entrance with the train-station-that's-not-really-a-station to the castle to all of Tomorrowland. The structures are quite detailed when looked at individually, but detail =/= theme, and they don't ever feel connected to their surroundings. And their large size means they feel inhuman when you're standing next to them, dwarfed by their mass. All the open space in the park doesn't help either; that's why the Imagination Gardens in front of the castle feel like a big area of nothing - it's because they are. They're beautiful, but they're too big with not enough stuff to focus on, which leads to the second issue...

- "Weenies" (or lack thereof): the things to which your eyes are drawn. When you walk through SDL, too much of your view is trees and lampposts followed by more trees and lampposts. There's nothing in the distance that grabs your attention, no structure to focus on. Too often you're walking alongside something, rarely toward anything (just like you would at a strip mall). For example, as you enter Tomorrowland from the "hub" at SDL, all you really see are trees and lampposts. Contrast that to the MK, where the entrance arch, Astro Obiter and Peoplemover all draw your eyes down the walkway and give you successive focal points. It's another reason why the Imagination Gardens don't really work at SDL. Stand at their center and your view is basically of, you guessed it, trees and lampposts. Stand at the center of the MK Hub and you see the walkways leading toward Adventureland, Liberty Square, and Tomorrowland, each providing a small glimpse into each land.

For me, SDL is an example of Disney forgetting how to properly "stage" a theme park. It's not enough to have a few big, impressive buildings plopped around the park. There needs to be a build up, a connective "set design" if you will, to pull everything together and evoke a transportive feeling. The Disney castle parks have always been good at doing that, but with Shanghai it's like Disney didn't care, didn't bother, or just plain failed in the execution.

Lack of weenies? The castle, Tron, 7DMT, the mountain in AI etc.

 

[ford91exploder]

I don't expect it to go that far. I do however anticipate fastpasses and the more desirable dining locales becoming the premium experience, while the low-rent experience will feature standby lines and significant wait times for quick service dining. Frankly, I'd be for it if it brought down the price of a one day ticket by 20%. I don't need to hit every ride/show/meal every time I'm in the parks, and if I can get a discount for embracing that attitude I would probably visit more often.

If paid FP reduced the gate price i think a lot of people would like it. But this is Disney and the only thing paid FP may do is moderate the admission price increase.

Even worse it will exacerbate the two tier system and further break the one thing that made Disney special 'The EVERY Guest is a VIP' once through the turnstiles, More and more we see the hollywood 'velvet ropes separating the VIP's from the great unwashed.

 

[SoManyWasps]

Even worse it will exacerbate the two tier system and further break the one thing that made Disney special 'The EVERY Guest is a VIP' once through the turnstiles, More and more we see the hollywood 'velvet ropes separating the VIP's from the great unwashed.

True, but that's more of a modern capitalism problem than a Disney problem.