News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner -

[MisterPenguin]

Picture it. Gondola cables. A multistory tower at Disney's Coronado Springs Resort. A multistory DVC tower at Disney's Caribbean Beach Resort. So much for looking up and seeing tall trees and the Florida sky.

That's just reality. When you keep growing, you either sprawl out or build up. It's what every rural to suburban to urban center has to deal with.

Yes, WDW still has a lot of land to spread out on, but it's not infinite. And as much as they attempt to spread, human population will outstrip the growth.

If you were sold on the dream of seeing only tree tops forever... you were being a bit uncritical and naive.

 

[truecoat]

Disney is likely to have a few pickup trucks with scissor lifts mounted on the back for gondola evacuation rather than relying on the fire department (although they might be reedy creek FD labeled) This would make evacuating a line pretty quick as it would be maybe 3-4 minutes per gondola to park under it, set the outriggers and scissor up to it. If the scissor lift is large enough they could land the gondola on it and the guests would simply step off onto the platform. This would ultimately be a pretty fast operation and with 2 or 3 trucks they could clear a line in 20-30 minutes which is entirely reasonable.

I wonder how many would be affected by a total stop. For example, if the line from AOA to the transfer hub went down in the morning, one side would have passengers and the return side would be empty for the most part. A couple hundred at best? For such a short ride, chances of being stuck on this system are very low to the point of lottery odds.

 

[bclane]

Did you ever visit WDW in the 70's? If you did (as I did - first visit in '76), you might think about what happened to all of the empty land, the beautiful topiaries along World Drive, and the fact that WDW was miles from anything resembling a city. Same would be true if you visited the original Disneyland when it was still surrounded by orange groves.

OTOH, can you imagine someone who has only known the mega-resort that WDW is today, and wondering why in the world any of us would have visited when there was only ONE park with so few rides?

I first visited the Magic Kingdom one week after it first opened. I lived in Miami back in those days and the drive to Disney was pretty much a drive through boonies and orange groves back then. Orlando was just a little town back then compared to now. Oh how things have changed...

 

[SpaceMountain77]

That's just reality. When you keep growing, you either sprawl out or build up. It's what every rural to suburban to urban center has to deal with.

Yes, WDW still has a lot of land to spread out on, but it's not infinite. And as much as they attempt to spread, human population will outstrip the growth.

If you were sold on the dream of seeing only tree tops forever... you were being a bit uncritical and naive.

I do understand the need for growth, to accommodate guest capacity. However, like the citizens of San Francisco, who rallied against Manhattanization, I prefer that that structures not tower.

 

[GoofGoof]

You guys are giving that web page WAY too much credit. The 12mins time is not a time to evac the whole system or even from failure to evac start. It's information way out of context and certainly misused.

The patent posted? You mean the stupid icebox? People ignored it because just because you get a patent doesn't make it a good idea or even a notable one.

I did post a disclaimer that I had no idea if the site with the 12 minute time was reputable or if that specific detail was legit. I was hoping maybe some insiders would comment yes or no if it's BS or it could at least start a conversation and change the subject..which it sorta did

 

[GoofGoof]

I'm just sitting over here with my mind blown that you "experts" can't figure out an easy way to generate enough power from the Florida sun, from gondola motion, and from being docked at a station to power small AC units.

This is simple electronics/electrical theory. Theoretically they could pull plenty of power by combining all three methods with diversion load controllers and a simple interface circuit to feed the proper amount of power needed to charge a super capacitor and drive a small AC unit at the same time.

..but what do I know, you people are obviously far more intelligent.

Also, great job at ignoring @larryz pointing out that patent.

I'm certainly not an expert on gondola systems or the possible ways to power them. I have stated numerous times I have no personal experience with riding these things let alone designing them. What I know of the subject I learned from reading here and several other online sources. Since everything you read on the internet is definitely true I'm sure I'm correct

The ultracapacitor option is somewhat proven technology. It's used on the London gondola right now. From everything I've read it's not highly reliable right now with that particular system. Reports of issues with cars without working AC. It makes sense there would be growing pains since the technology is relatively new (or at least it's use in a large scale gondola system). Traditional batteries (I think someone mentioned Tesla batteries earlier) that would be charged overnight and used all day would be far too heavy to be practical. In the not too distant future if battery technology continues to increase at the current pace this will be an option. Tesla may be the driver of that innovation with its gigafactory. Once the technology is there I could see gondolas take off in cities as legit mass transit options. I know Austin, Cleveland and Chicago are all considering options to add gondolas for tourism and mass transit. I think we're maybe 5 to 10 years away.

Something that I am somewhat knowledgable on would be the solar power option. I work in the energy industry for a company that has built quite a few solar systems from huge multi-acre utility scale projects in the desert with thousands of panels to large systems for hotels and other industrial customers to residential home solar down to small panels on the roof of bus/train stations to power lights and advertisements. If they add panels to the roof of the gondolas it would generate about enough power to maybe run some LED lights and/or possibly a small fan. The closest thing I've seen to solar powered AC on a small scale like this was in Phoenix where a sample light rail shelter was setup which used solar panels to run fans to circulate cool air created using chilled water. It's basiclay an outdoor AC system to cool people off with a blast of cool air while they wait when they push a button. Guess it comes in handy on 100+ degree days. Downtown Phoenix already has the chilled water system in place which is really doing most of the cooling work so it was relatively easy to install this system but the solar power isn't directly creating cool air, just running a few fans to circulate it. Here's some pictures of the system:

 

[RustySpork]

I'm certainly not an expert on gondola systems or the possible ways to power them. I have stated numerous times I have no personal experience with riding these things let alone designing them. What I know of the subject I learned from reading here and several other online sources. Since everything you read on the internet is definitely true I'm sure I'm correct

The ultracapacitor option is somewhat proven technology. It's used on the London gondola right now. From everything I've read it's not highly reliable right now with that particular system. Reports of issues with cars without working AC. It makes sense there would be growing pains since the technology is relatively new (or at least it's use in a large scale gondola system). Traditional batteries (I think someone mentioned Tesla batteries earlier) that would be charged overnight and used all day would be far too heavy to be practical. In the not too distant future if battery technology continues to increase at the current pace this will be an option. Tesla may be the driver of that innovation with its gigafactory. Once the technology is there I could see gondolas take off in cities as legit mass transit options. I know Austin, Cleveland and Chicago are all considering options to add gondolas for tourism and mass transit. I think we're maybe 5 to 10 years away.

Something that I am somewhat knowledgable on would be the solar power option. I work in the energy industry for a company that has built quite a few solar systems from huge multi-acre utility scale projects in the desert with thousands of panels to large systems for hotels and other industrial customers to residential home solar down to small panels on the roof of bus/train stations to power lights and advertisements. If they add panels to the roof of the gondolas it would generate about enough power to maybe run some LED lights and/or possibly a small fan. The closest thing I've seen to solar powered AC on a small scale like this was in Phoenix where a sample light rail shelter was setup which used solar panels to run fans to circulate cool air created using chilled water. It's basiclay an outdoor AC system to cool people off with a blast of cool air while they wait when they push a button. Guess it comes in handy on 100+ degree days. Downtown Phoenix already has the chilled water system in place which is really doing most of the cooling work so it was relatively easy to install this system but the solar power isn't directly creating cool air, just running a few fans to circulate it. Here's some pictures of the system:
View attachment 212879
View attachment 212880

I (and maybe someone else) said Tesla. Tesla batteries are super capacitor technology. You'll note I mentioned combining three different methods of power delivery. Method #1, solar could provide enough power to sustain a circuit that could power a low speed fan, and any additional power could be diverted to the rest of the system. Method #2, power from movement. Like the alternator in your car, it's plenty of energy to power a cell and the AC in your car, any extra energy could be diverted to charging a battery to run the unit when it's stopped/raining or maybe LED lights. Method #3, dock charging. Any time it's not in motion in a bay it could be charging or running AC in a higher power mode.

All three methods of power delivery could be combined using technology and a bit of smart switching/regulation/diversion to make sure it's never sending more power to any cell or device than expected when combined.

There are have been a few breakthroughs in non-alternating current powered air conditioning in the last 5-10 years.

These same methods could be used in new monorail cars to keep the AC on when they stop moving too, but I digress.

I guess my point is that I hope Disney will surprise us and once again be a company of tomorrow and use some of the new tech that's out in the world.

 

[bclane]

Just hose each gondola down as they leave the station (or run them through a highly themed magical waterfall) and voila, not only is everyone cooler now but you have a water ride as well.

 

[GoofGoof]

I (and maybe someone else) said Tesla. Tesla batteries are super capacitor technology. You'll note I mentioned combining three different methods of power delivery. Method #1, solar could provide enough power to sustain a circuit that could power a low speed fan, and any additional power could be diverted to the rest of the system. Method #2, power from movement. Like the alternator in your car, it's plenty of energy to power a cell and the AC in your car, any extra energy could be diverted to charging a battery to run the unit when it's stopped/raining or maybe LED lights. Method #3, dock charging. Any time it's not in motion in a bay it could be charging or running AC in a higher power mode.

All three methods of power delivery could be combined using technology and a bit of smart switching/regulation/diversion to make sure it's never sending more power to any cell or device than expected when combined.

There are have been a few breakthroughs in non-alternating current powered air conditioning in the last 5-10 years.

These same methods could be used in new monorail cars to keep the AC on when they stop moving too, but I digress.

I guess my point is that I hope Disney will surprise us and once again be a company of tomorrow and use some of the new tech that's out in the world.

Just for the record I never said it wasn't possible to add AC to the gondolas. It definitely is. They had reasons that led them to not go with that option. We don't know exactly why, but I'm sure both cost and reliability factored in pretty heavily. I'm actually surprised Disney didn't try to get a corporate sponsor in the energy industry to foot part of the bill and provide expertise but I also think time was a factor. They want this up and running before SW Land opens. New technology tends to have delays.

Speaking of the patent @larryz posted, there's a company in CA that uses ice for cooling on an industrial scale. The units freeze water overnight and then during the peak hours when power prices spike they use the ice to produce cool air which supplements the buildings standard AC systems. It's a pretty cool technology. The units they have are rather large and only last about 6 hours but they are used in large industrial and office buildings. Not sure if they would translate to smaller scale units for gondolas. Here's a picture of one of the units and a link to the company's site:
http://iceenergy.wpengine.com/grid/#how

 

[GoofGoof]

Just hose each gondola down as they leave the station (or run them through a highly themed magical waterfall) and voila, not only is everyone cooler now but you have a water ride as well.

DHS and EPCOT desperately need water rides...good call

 

[bclane]

DHS and EPCOT desperately need water rides...good call

 

[Goofyernmost]

I'm certainly not an expert on gondola systems or the possible ways to power them. I have stated numerous times I have no personal experience with riding these things let alone designing them. What I know of the subject I learned from reading here and several other online sources. Since everything you read on the internet is definitely true I'm sure I'm correct

The ultracapacitor option is somewhat proven technology. It's used on the London gondola right now. From everything I've read it's not highly reliable right now with that particular system. Reports of issues with cars without working AC. It makes sense there would be growing pains since the technology is relatively new (or at least it's use in a large scale gondola system). Traditional batteries (I think someone mentioned Tesla batteries earlier) that would be charged overnight and used all day would be far too heavy to be practical. In the not too distant future if battery technology continues to increase at the current pace this will be an option. Tesla may be the driver of that innovation with its gigafactory. Once the technology is there I could see gondolas take off in cities as legit mass transit options. I know Austin, Cleveland and Chicago are all considering options to add gondolas for tourism and mass transit. I think we're maybe 5 to 10 years away.

Something that I am somewhat knowledgable on would be the solar power option. I work in the energy industry for a company that has built quite a few solar systems from huge multi-acre utility scale projects in the desert with thousands of panels to large systems for hotels and other industrial customers to residential home solar down to small panels on the roof of bus/train stations to power lights and advertisements. If they add panels to the roof of the gondolas it would generate about enough power to maybe run some LED lights and/or possibly a small fan. The closest thing I've seen to solar powered AC on a small scale like this was in Phoenix where a sample light rail shelter was setup which used solar panels to run fans to circulate cool air created using chilled water. It's basiclay an outdoor AC system to cool people off with a blast of cool air while they wait when they push a button. Guess it comes in handy on 100+ degree days. Downtown Phoenix already has the chilled water system in place which is really doing most of the cooling work so it was relatively easy to install this system but the solar power isn't directly creating cool air, just running a few fans to circulate it. Here's some pictures of the system:
View attachment 212879
View attachment 212880

I know that some of you youngin's are going to be shocked by this, but, there was a time, not all that long ago when cars didn't have air conditioning. Yes, they were hot when stopped but, the only way we could travel was to ride in those vehicles for hours on end. We didn't die from it, slightly uncomfortable, sure, but unless your parents were like mine and put clear plastic seat covers on the bench car seats, it was doable without having to pry you legs off the plastic after sitting there for any length of time.

I don't know what they are going to do, but, I doubt it will be any hotter in there then any other form of transportation that is broken down. I went to Florida in 1962 in the back of a pickup camper in mid-july. No AC, a couple of Jalousie windows on one side and only a 6 inch stationary fan usable just when plugged into a 110 volt outlet. None of those went along with us on the highway. We survived hours on end. A few minute ride is going to be OK, for the weak of strength currently exhibited by the last two generations. Tough it out and you will have stories to tell your grandchildren.

 

[GoofGoof]

I know that some of you youngin's are going to be shocked by this, but, there was a time, not all that long ago when cars didn't have air conditioning. Yes, they were hot when stopped but, the only way we could travel was to ride in those vehicles for hours on end. We didn't die from it, slightly uncomfortable, sure, but unless your parents were like mine and put clear plastic seat covers on the bench car seats, it was doable without having to pry you legs off the plastic after sitting there for any length of time.

I don't know what they are going to do, but, I doubt it will be any hotter in there then any other form of transportation that is broken down. I went to Florida in 1962 in the back of a pickup camper in mid-july. No AC, a couple of Jalousie windows on one side and only a 6 inch stationary fan usable just when plugged into a 110 volt outlet. None of those went along with us on the highway. We survived hours on end. A few minute ride is going to be OK, for the weak of strength currently exhibited by the last two generations. Tough it out and you will have stories to tell your grandchildren.

My first car had AC which of course was broken and I had no cash to fix it. I've been there.

I think the rest of the world is also less obsessed with AC. Pretty much all of the warm weather gondola systems in existence don't have AC but they are also in countries where a lot of places don't have AC. Americans probably expect it, especially at the prices Disney charges. I think it may be a learning curve for us. Many people will be concerned/shocked there is no AC but maybe if it's not unbearable like a lot of people are suggesting we will all be pleasantly surprised once we ride it.

 

[Goofyernmost]

My first car had AC which of course was broken and I had no cash to fix it. I've been there.

I think the rest of the world is also less obsessed with AC. Pretty much all of the warm weather gondola systems in existence don't have AC but they are also in countries where a lot of places don't have AC. Americans probably expect it, especially at the prices Disney charges. I think it may be a learning curve for us. Many people will be concerned/shocked there is no AC but maybe if it's not unbearable like a lot of people are suggesting we will all be pleasantly surprised once we ride it.

And if it is that unbearable, it will be promptly shut down because no one will use it. It will be just a short blip in Disney history.

 

[rocketraccoon]

If the ventilation works well I can't imagine it being much worse than the Friendship Boats, and that's a much longer trip.

 

[peter11435]

If the ventilation works well I can't imagine it being much worse than the Friendship Boats, and that's a much longer trip.

Those are horrendous

 

[Creathir]

My first car had AC which of course was broken and I had no cash to fix it. I've been there.

I think the rest of the world is also less obsessed with AC. Pretty much all of the warm weather gondola systems in existence don't have AC but they are also in countries where a lot of places don't have AC. Americans probably expect it, especially at the prices Disney charges. I think it may be a learning curve for us. Many people will be concerned/shocked there is no AC but maybe if it's not unbearable like a lot of people are suggesting we will all be pleasantly surprised once we ride it.

That's really my biggest concern is the expectation of the clientele.

I'm sure they won't be unbearable under normal conditions, but most Americans, especially those that can afford a $4,000 trip to Disney World, have a certain expectation of comfort.

 

[flynnibus]

I did post a disclaimer that I had no idea if the site with the 12 minute time was reputable or if that specific detail was legit. I was hoping maybe some insiders would comment yes or no if it's BS or it could at least start a conversation and change the subject..which it sorta did

Yeah I that comment wasn't really a dig at you posting it... more some of the leaps after it by others

I mean... you won't even be evac'd in 15 mins from an indoor, fixed ground level attraction in day to day ops. Heck, they'll work for 2-3x that before deciding to evacuate a monorail... and people are acting like this time reference was from first sign of issue to getting everyone out via lifts randomly along the route. Let's just think that through for a min

I think the reference would have been about process for a evac cycle for a single gondola.... from once you are there on site and ready to start. Because you need to know that to build out the larger scenarios and add in the other variables like travel, terrain, scale, etc. the process in question would be about the safe sequence used to secure the gondola's movement, open, transfer people, etc.

 

[GoofGoof]

That's really my biggest concern is the expectation of the clientele.

I'm sure they won't be unbearable under normal conditions, but most Americans, especially those that can afford a $4,000 trip to Disney World, have a certain expectation of comfort.

Here's the thing, we are obsessed with Disney. We are fanatical about knowing everything going on. Unless the things are really unbearable and get terrible lots of bad PR the average guest won't even know there's no AC in the gondolas until they board one. Once they realize there's no AC but it's not a big deal anyway they won't care.

And if it is that unbearable, it will be promptly shut down because no one will use it. It will be just a short blip in Disney history.

True.

This comes back to my previous comment that Disney would have done their homework and worked with the 3rd party vendor to ensure they won't be unbearable. If the research showed the climate in Orlando would make them unbearable Disney would have either added AC or scrapped the project.

 

[Creathir]

Here's the thing, we are obsessed with Disney. We are fanatical about knowing everything going on. Unless the things are really unbearable and get terrible lots of bad PR the average guest won't even know there's no AC in the gondolas until they board one. Once they realize it's not a big deal anyway they won't care.

True.

This comes back to my previous comment that Disney would have done their homework and worked with the 3rd party vendor to ensure they won't be unbearable. If the research showed the climate in Orlando would make them unbearable Disney would have either added AC or scrapped the project.

Maybe so. We'll see.