How Much Security is Too Much?

Matt_Black

Well-Known Member
Apples and oranges, clearly.

Although likelihood is small, a tragic event is more likely at Disney because of the massive amount of people and its iconic worldwide presence.

Disney already spent millions after a once in a lifetime tragedy and the obviously see importance in this. They just need to go all the way.

All the way includes full body cavity searches for everyone, so let's actually hope they don't go that far. I couldn't imagine trying to ride Space Mountain after that.
 

drizgirl

Well-Known Member
What made me happy was that employees, suppliers and their vehicles went thru nearly the same level of security checks. Too many times the customers get the security treatment but the trades and suppliers waltz right in like they work there.


I'd feel a lot better about all the security additions outside the Disney parks if I knew they were being just as thorough with what's coming in the back gates (CM's and deliveries).
 

beertiki

Well-Known Member
As long as you can bring a loaded double wide stroller or ride an ECV to the parks with a less than 30 second search, the lines are pointless. All you are going to get are the guys who carry pocket knives, and a gun nut who thinks his concealed weapon is making everyone else safer. I am sure behind some window there is a guy with binoculars scanning the crowd and communicating with guys on the ground, and they are really paying attention to any single male 18 to 30.

As long as bags are only searched by hand, anything can brought in. No security baggage checker in a Disney line is ever going to open a bag bag of diapers or box of tampons. It's all just show, and all I can hope is the guys with binoculars and scanning the crowd with cameras had a good night sleep.
 

PatInCT

Member
Agreed... the fallacy of "more invasive searches" is that if someone is set on doing something they can do it at the queue for bag search. Lots of people lined up there and they haven't passed through security yet. That's why the whole exercise is just pointless.
 

beertiki

Well-Known Member
Agreed... the fallacy of "more invasive searches" is that if someone is set on doing something they can do it at the queue for bag search. Lots of people lined up there and they haven't passed through security yet. That's why the whole exercise is just pointless.


It's does not matter if it happens in the security line, on main street, the mine train, the bus from CSR, or the pool bathroom at POP. The headlines will read Walt Disney World.
 

EOD K9

Well-Known Member
I also don't think it's workable to have drug sniffing dogs and a teardown of cars looking for hidden gun and ammo (how long would those lines be).
Drug sniffing dogs would serve no purpose on property. Disney does have explosive detection dogs. A good K9 team can thoroughly search the exterior of a normal size vehicle in less than a minute. I kinda know what I am talking about on that one.
To answer your question about how many attacks were stopped based on the lines, we measure success on the fact that nothing happened. The bad guys need to be lucky once, we need to be lucky and on point every day.
 

PatInCT

Member
So how many explosive detecting dogs and handlers would you need to cover all the cars heading into WDW? At an extra 1 minute per car you'd never get in there (even with 10 lanes open).

How many attacks were there at WDW prior to 9/11? The same number as we've had since... it's a huge waste of time and money for all parties involved. Normal vigilence is all that's required of Disney security. 30 years ago if you were walking through the park and took your shirt off (a dress code violation) you wouldn't last 10 seconds before a security guard would approach you and tell you to put it on.

My point is that this heightened security is 99.9% theater (not just as Disney).
 

mousehockey37

Well-Known Member
What kind of philosophy is, "if something is going to happen, it's going to happen?"

That's totally ridiculous. You can control or attempt to prevent many things. You could say something like, "if it's going to rain, it's going to rain," but not simply lump everything into a powerless, it will happen regardless type category.

Take airline safety. Millions of dollars are spent to prevent and avoid air crashes and the same is true with security. You're trying to prevent tragedy and Disney can absolutely do better.

The part in bold is true, but in the end, if something's gonna happen, it's gonna happen.

Take your example of airline safety. You could do everything right while on the ground. But if there's something that goes wrong in the air, you're just along for the ride at that point.

So Chef, for your sake, I hope your bunker is secured 24 stories underground.
 

EOD K9

Well-Known Member
So how many explosive detecting dogs and handlers would you need to cover all the cars heading into WDW? At an extra 1 minute per car you'd never get in there (even with 10 lanes open
With the amount of vehicles and entrance points on property, coupled with environmental factors, and three shifts, that answer would be more than 100.
Having their K9 teams search for person borne improvised explosive devices while waiting at the turnstiles is very quick and non-intrusive. They are being checked as they get off the monorail and headed to the gates. That is not really an issue as nobody is being detained during that search. If the K9 shows interest or indicates on a person, well, then that changes everything.
 

Chef Mickey

Well-Known Member
;l
The part in bold is true, but in the end, if something's gonna happen, it's gonna happen.

Take your example of airline safety. You could do everything right while on the ground. But if there's something that goes wrong in the air, you're just along for the ride at that point.

So Chef, for your sake, I hope your bunker is secured 24 stories underground.
I'm far from a bunker dweller...I just know you can work to prevent a lot of tragedy and it happens every da. You can't just point to the tragedy and say, oh see, it happened. The unmeasurable avoided tragedies are what you're striving to achieve. No news is good news.

At some point, enough is enough and it no longer makes sense, actually becoming a negative. I'd argue airline safety is pretty much tapped out. Disney is nowhere near that point and a tragedy will have huge ramifications.
 

mousehockey37

Well-Known Member
;l

im far from a bunker dweller...I just think you can work to print tragedy. You can't just point to the tragedy and say, oh see, it happened. The unmeasurable avoided tragedies are what you're striving to achieve.

At some point, enough is enough and it no longer makes sense, actually becoming a negative. I'd argue airline safety is pretty much tapped out. Disney is nowhere near that point and a tragedy will have huge ramifications.

There is no measure of safety that will ever be "tapped out". Safety is an illusion.

Disney has a team that handles these things. They more than likely work with the government and most definitely local law enforcement to stay aware of things as well as putting new measures into place if it is deemed necessary. As the world becomes more unstable by the second, Disney will be forced to alter and add to its already known and unknown security presence and practices.

To some, Disney has enough security, to others, not enough. That battle will forever continue.
 

Chef Mickey

Well-Known Member
There is no measure of safety that will ever be "tapped out". Safety is an illusion.

Disney has a team that handles these things. They more than likely work with the government and most definitely local law enforcement to stay aware of things as well as putting new measures into place if it is deemed necessary. As the world becomes more unstable by the second, Disney will be forced to alter and add to its already known and unknown security presence and practices.

To some, Disney has enough security, to others, not enough. That battle will forever continue.
Flying has become almost absurdly safe, improving essentially every year as a percentage of miles flown, but it did not happen overnight.

Some safety is an illusion, not all. I'd still say Disney has more to go and you'll see it should anything bad happen. I so hope it never does.

The "badness" of the world is far more constructed by the media than it is in reality. You still need to be prepared and Disney can be better prepared, in my opinion.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Flying has become almost absurdly safe, improving essentially every year as a percentage of miles flown, but it did not happen overnight.

Some safety is an illusion, not all. I'd still say Disney has more to go and you'll see it should anything bad happen. I so hope it never does.

The "badness" of the world is far more constructed by the media than it is in reality. You still need to be prepared and Disney can be better prepared, in my opinion.

But to what point? Do you agree that personal watercraft rentals need a security station as well? This would mean multiple check points inside of a resort. Yet wide open areas 10ft away full of people who have never passed thru any security.
In my opinion, this is nonsensical. If you are going to secure an area- Secure It.
But this nonsense of 3 or more security locations, for specific activities, at the MK resorts just seems like a bunch of actions taken to make overly worried people "feel better" about seeing more security... when in reality, they are not secured.
 

Chef Mickey

Well-Known Member
But to what point? Do you agree that personal watercraft rentals need a security station as well? This would mean multiple check points inside of a resort. Yet wide open areas 10ft away full of people who have never passed thru any security.
In my opinion, this is nonsensical. If you are going to secure an area- Secure It.
But this nonsense of 3 or more security locations, for specific activities, at the MK resorts just seems like a bunch of actions taken to make overly worried people "feel better" about seeing more security... when in reality, they are not secured.
That's my whole point about getting serious about security. At minimum, you've got to close the loopholes at whatever cost. They have money. Next, you need to beef up and at the same time streamline the park entry security. It can be both better and faster.

I totally agree there is a point that the cost outweighs any benefit, but they aren't close. They need to spend more and view it as an investment in potential avoidance of bigger problems.
 

mousehockey37

Well-Known Member
That's my whole point about getting serious about security. At minimum, you've got to close the loopholes at whatever cost. They have money. Next, you need to beef up and at the same time streamline the park entry security. It can be both better and faster.

I totally agree there is a point that the cost outweighs any benefit, but they aren't close. They need to spend more and view it as an investment in potential avoidance of bigger problems.

That's the problem. There's no way to do it. You can't secure every person, car, truck, plane, train, etc that passes over any property owned by WDW.

Even if you could somehow fully secure everything, people who are intent on doing something will find a way to do it.

Look at the White House. People aren't supposed to be able to get past the fence, nor the yard and reach the actual White House itself, yet over the past year, we've had more than 1 person get around that.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
That's my whole point about getting serious about security. At minimum, you've got to close the loopholes at whatever cost. They have money. Next, you need to beef up and at the same time streamline the park entry security. It can be both better and faster.

I totally agree there is a point that the cost outweighs any benefit, but they aren't close. They need to spend more and view it as an investment in potential avoidance of bigger problems.

IMO they are wasting money by investing in the things I mentioned above.. invest in securing the entire resort- 1 check point upon entry/re entry.

I saw a photo of the Grand Californian where security guards are blocking everyone off unless they are resort guests. It was mentioned that WDW may go that route too. i don't know how they would accomplish it.. maybe set security before you even enter that area...that way everyone can still visit. All of it will be under a secure zone.
 

Chef Mickey

Well-Known Member
That's the problem. There's no way to do it. You can't secure every person, car, truck, plane, train, etc that passes over any property owned by WDW.

Even if you could somehow fully secure everything, people who are intent on doing something will find a way to do it.

Look at the White House. People aren't supposed to be able to get past the fence, nor the yard and reach the actual White House itself, yet over the past year, we've had more than 1 person get around that.
It's not about perfection. Currently, they aren't close enough and can improve a lot without being insane to do so.
 

Chef Mickey

Well-Known Member
IMO they are wasting money by investing in the things I mentioned above.. invest in securing the entire resort- 1 check point upon entry/re entry.

I saw a photo of the Grand Californian where security guards are blocking everyone off unless they are resort guests. It was mentioned that WDW may go that route too. i don't know how they would accomplish it.. maybe set security before you even enter that area...that way everyone can still visit. All of it will be under a secure zone.
Who knows...they need a bigger security budget, I think we agree. It's up to them on where to spend for bang for buck.

A fence for the beach areas before the child incident might have seemed like waste too. You can't go crazy, but waiting for the tragedy to hit isn't a good strategy either. They can't be too reactionary.
 

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