sshindel's Epcot Manifesto

[sshindel]

Completely Agree with this, it genuinely makes me sad to think about what EPCOT could and should be and what it is

It really does to me as well. A few thousand words and only on page 2 show that I'm sad/mad/insane about the fact.

A big problem is that the park soared to such highs, that it's slow decline is so much more noticeable.

 

[BJones82]

It really does to me as well. A few thousand words and only on page 2 show that I'm sad/mad/insane about the fact.

A big problem is that the park soared to such highs, that it's slow decline is so much more noticeable.

I didn't realize till reading this that I ever visited the WoL pavilion when I was a kid, my first visit was in 1998 so I didn't ever look into if it was still open then or not... It makes me sad how much dead space there is in EPCOT... I'm sorry, I mean Event Space...

 

[George]

Breaking form a little, I'll skip ahead to another teaser post. One which I found myself doodling one night during dinner.
And yes, I know I'm not a great artist.


You'll know I've really gone over the edge when I invest in coloring products that are more than Crayola colored pencils...

I've got to get some work done myself if I'm doing to get paid next month, but I can barely resist this topic which I love so much. One little thing I would do would be to add some touches around the aquarium viewing windows and a few background objects to make it look like the folk in the aquarium are in a functional seabase or sea habitat for humans. I would then have a Dory, Marlin, and a new animated fish that was gently sarcastic poking fun at the "air breathers" that have taken up residence.

 

[George]

It really comes down to the crux of all my problems with Epcot right now. IMO, it's the one big fault that has caused so many of the missteps.

Correct. You could argue that the original vision of the park was changed, but it seems to have been replaced with nothing which is really the big problem. Personally, I think they could've kept the original vision of EPCOT with a few tweaks and increased attendance without alienating the original fans. The complete disregard for the vision has created a place I no longer care if I visit when I'm in O-town.

Since we're talking about big picture things, it is possible to tie Future World and World Showcase together. Have you ever heard of "The Day the Universe Changed ?" It details how science, history, politics, and technology all interact and how a seemingly insignificant event in one of these areas has changed how we look at the world and interact with each other. I'd like to have a nice, slow, dark ride that takes us through things like energy, food, transportation, communication, imagination (entertainment industry), and space exploration that shows how politics, trade agreements, culture, and our basic interactions as human beings are all affected by these things in the spot where the Odyssey is currently located. It actually wouldn't be that hard to have each WS country represented. Plus, it helps reinforce that each country has contributed more to the world than fancy food and alcoholic beverages. I've also always liked the idea of IaSW being in World Showcase. It doesn't have to be right at the entrance, but it could occupy one of the 5 or 6 unused expansion pads. This would also make my case for historical figure/famous culture icons, meet and greet/interactions in each country stronger.

I'll keep catching up at some later point. Thanks for re-starting this thread. I am motivated this time to read a little at a time and try and stay caught up even if it means I am responding to things weeks later.

 

[sshindel]

Since we're talking about big picture things, it is possible to tie Future World and World Showcase together. Have you ever heard of "The Day the Universe Changed ?" It details how science, history, politics, and technology all interact and how a seemingly insignificant event in one of these areas has changed how we look at the world and interact with each other. I'd like to have a nice, slow, dark ride that takes us through things like energy, food, transportation, communication, imagination (entertainment industry), and space exploration that shows how politics, trade agreements, culture, and our basic interactions as human beings are all affected by these things in the spot where the Odyssey is currently located. It actually wouldn't be that hard to have each WS country represented. Plus, it helps reinforce that each country has contributed more to the world than fancy food and alcoholic beverages. I've also always liked the idea of IaSW being in World Showcase. It doesn't have to be right at the entrance, but it could occupy one of the 5 or 6 unused expansion pads. This would also make my case for historical figure/famous culture icons, meet and greet/interactions in each country stronger.

I have not previously heard of that, but now I'm going to be digging around for it on streaming sites.

I like the idea. I do think that part of what Epcot used to do, as a whole, was kind of show some of the inter-connectivity between some of these things. The park itself together handled these topics, and if looked at as one whole experience, it worked to highlight how all of these things were important and were intertwined together.

BTW, I'm soon coming upon a place to handle a very similar idea to your IaSW one. This is more insane though. I'm really rounding into imagineering territory.

 

[sshindel]

Also, a note. I think I'll go back to the OP of the thread and maybe put links in to specific topics as I post them. I know that this thread is a giant wall of text, and if it were linked at the beginning, it might be easier to digest.

 

[sshindel]

Ok. Here is where you get to see the true depths of my depravity here. I was just about to get into starting about an idea on one way to update Epcot.

Imagineering stuff is about to start.

I was about to start a notepad document collecting URLs for images and web pages to start my design ideas. Then I realized that there was already a web page that does that for you.

That's right. I started a bunch of
<shudder>
EPCOT design idea Pinterest boards.
<second shudder>

I feel somehow dirty.

 

[sshindel]

Again, we're coming to a minor edit for continuity. The next few posts are going to really start into what became me trying to reinvent Epcot (mostly Future World honestly) to show one way that things could be brought together.

I want to note a few things.

I do not think that these are the ONLY ideas. These are ideas I had that I felt helped get Epcot back to the original mission and feel of the park. You may like some, you may hate some, you may not read any of these.

I also do not feel that any of these really have any chance at happening. They are the ideas of some crazy dude on a Disney fan forum. No one should give much credence to them.

Please feel free to criticize, riff, improve, love, hate, ignore any of the below. The reason I'm putting all of this out here is because I want to have conversations. Feel free to poo-poo any and all of this to your heart's content.

Anyway, enough disclaimer. Time to get on with it!

 

[sshindel]

Ok. I'm using this as an excuse to cut and paste an imagineering thing I shared in the PML a while ago,

You know, if they would have just contacted me first, they could have kept Norway, moved IaSW to World Showcase, and used the IaSW showbuilding for a new Fanstasyland dark ride.

anyway, my thing from yesterday, saved for posterity:

Ok. I have to do this, I just have to. It's one of those things that has really never struck me before, to do any real imagineering stuff. I like to talk a big game, but I don't typically have lots of tangible solutions.

Remember, none of this is financially smart or realistic. Also, I have no idea if I'm the first to think of this or not, so mea culpa if you know someone who has suggested this.

All this talk recently about what should be done with Epcot has me thinking, which is dangerous. Also, there has been lots of talk about moving various attractions from Magic Kingdom to Epcot, which I don't really typically give much credence to.

Anyway, one of my rallying points is that I hate that an entire pavilion in Future World is devoted to festival and event space, for events that take part only in World Showcase. It's a waste of Future World space, it causes people to hike back to Future World for events, etc. I've been advocating building a special event space in World Showcase, which can handle that, freeing the WoL pavilion back up to be a Future World attraction again.

Last night something struck me with someone talking about Its a Small World or Carousel of Progress relocating to Epcot, which is crazy. It could be crazy like a fox though.

What if...

What if we built festival space in World Showcase and themed it to the 1964 Worlds Fair? You could in theory move IaSW and Carousel of Progress both to Epcot, sit them in a '64 Worlds Fair themed area, and be 100% thematically appropriate! The event space could house your demonstrations, lectures, information, merch for the various festivals. I'd also like to see a Worlds Fair museum attraction that could function year round. Either a history of the 64 fair and Disney's part in it, or a history of all Worlds Fairs (and stuff like the Columbian Exposition in Chicago that gave us the White City).

Epcot has always tried to be something of a modern day Worlds Fair, and I feel that this would be very fitting to have in World Showcase.

What else does it have going for it? Lets google "1964 Worlds Fair" and see what image pops up.

Hmmmm, that looks REALLY familiar. Where have I seen something like that before?

Oh yeah!

So, here's where the insanity comes in. What if the illuminations barge could spend the day as the centerpiece of the Worlds Fair pavilion, and then at night, when the time is right, a ceremony or something happens where the globe starts to make it's trek out to the lagoon. That would be something to see wouldnt it? I know it wouldn't really be "easy", but when have I ever shot for easy?

Now we've got a centerpiece. Where could this go, and do you really think that all this would fit in World Showcase?

Why lookie here! What you have there is IaSW, CoP, the Worlds Fair sized Unisphere, and a spot for a building larger than IaSW for festival space!

The caveats here. The boathouse that sits under CoP would have to relocate to International Gateway. The bridge would have to be reconfigured to allow the globe to make it's way out. There is some backstage stuff that would have to be covered/themed. You'd have to, you know, move IaSW and CoP (or build new showbuildings likely, and move the insides). You'd have to find replacement ideas for IaSW and CoP in MK.

Still, all workable, am I right?

Am I wrong though that this would be cool? Buildings inspired by stuff like this:

These suckers in Forced Perspective:

 

[sshindel]

So let's start out the makeover with something I've already mentioned. Something that could be theoretically started now, with little to no impact on the current park (or maybe as soon as Flower and Garden is over).

I'm still way into my idea of the '64 Worlds Fair inspired festival space. It gives a dedicated festival space in World Showcase, removing it from a Future World pavilion. It has direct historical tie in to Walt Disney, and the technology that really helped put his theme parks on the map. It really plays up the idea that Epcot really is set up like the old Worlds Fairs, with pavilions devoted to industry and technology, as well as foreign travel. I like it too much to pass it up. So, I'll start my Epcot 2.0 plans there.

Again, here's the expansion pad I want to work with:

You'll see that there is a large unused space here, and the boathouse. I want to try and not mess around with Avenue of the Stars there because causing the traffic to the backs of all the pavilions to reroute seems to be a pretty bad thing. To give us ample room, I'd love to move the boathouse over to International Gateway somehow. I think we might lose a little space over there to do this, but I think it's worth it.

I think by making the bridges into drawbridges we could bury the boathouse back in the trees back there without bothering the Epcot resorts. That gives us a huge space to work with, the open water channel.

That's our work space.

Once I get back from my next meeting, let's roll up our sleeves and start working...

 

[sshindel]

Ok. So, this is my first attempt at imagineering anything really, and as I mentioned, I don't think I could do my imagination justice with my pencil and paper, yet. So what I want to throw out here are just a series of images to try and get my point across in a design inspiration kind of way.

Why the 1964 World's Fair? Well, it's got massive Disney ties. The more you look at it, the more you see the inspiration for the EPCOT Center that was built in the 80s (not quite Walt's vision, but the vision of the imagineers that built the park that opened).

Both World Showcase and Future World.

 

[sshindel]

Ok, so above, hopefully, you can see the ties between Epcot and the Worlds Fair. You can see where I'm getting my inspiration from.

Now, I've mentioned it before in this manifesto, about moving Small World and Carousel of Progress to Epcot and tying them into this new pavilion. The idea would work, both of these attractions had their initial debut at the '64 Worlds Fair:

I think that honestly I'm pushing my luck asking for both of them to move. In a perfect world, sure, let's get IaSW out of Fantasyland and into the World Showcase, the theme ties in so much better. It opens up room for maybe a Pinnochio dark ride (tying into Village Haus). In action though, it would be much harder to pull off.

I'm suggesting we only move CoP. It's fit in Tomorrowland is really terrible. There is nothing tomorrow about it. I think that WDW is going to have to at some point either decide to shelve it or move it. By moving it here into a Worlds Fair style pavilion, it could be refurbished back to (as close as possible) the original attraction, and kept in fine working order as a great little attraction to pull people in. It frees up space in Tomorrowland to do something tomorrow-y, it gives an attraction to WS, it gives a reason to visit this pavilion on non-Festival times (if those exist anymore), it has historical ties, just all around a good idea.

So sorry IaSW, Fantasyland keeps you for now, we'll put up some cool artifacts in the Worlds Fair museum section of the pavilion.

 

[sshindel]

What else should be in the Worlds Fair pavilion?

Well, I think as far as physical buildings, I'd like to have CoP obviously, a large main event hall, a small museum section, a shop selling retro merch, and an outdoor music/demo venue. Smaller than the one in America Gardens Theater by quite a bit.

Let's start there. I think that a covered outdoor space to hold music, or demos for the festival would be a great addition to the area. Maybe the musical acts can focus on 60's music. Let's get that Beatles cover band back. Maybe we do some folk music in there as well. You could hold just about anything there, but I think that a space to do cooking or gardening demonstrations would be quite a cool thing as well, either paid events (let's be honest, that is what it would be) or even some (gasp) free events to help the regular festival goers get more out of their day at the festivals.

For design inspiration, I look to one of the buildings at the '64 Worlds Fair, The New York State Pavilion:

Obviously scaled down quite a bit, but it really feels like this could be a great inspiration for an outdoor covered stage

If you see, the Observation Towers (MiB?) were a part of the pavilion, so I'd like to have forced perspective versions of these kind of behind the building:

That covers one section of the new Worlds Fair pavilion.

 

[sshindel]

I mentioned a museum. What I really want is something along the lines of the one in Japan or China, but I'd like it to be a little bigger. Maybe One Man's Dream sized? Yeah, lets go with that.

I originally wanted this to be a part of the main event space, and maybe it still can be, but I'm leaning towards standalone for one reason only.

I want to incorporate this in some way, and it doesn't fit with what I want for the large space:

It originally sat outside of It's a Small World. It was designed by Rolly Crump, famed imagineer:

I just love it.
So it seems did Walt

I want this sucker sitting on top of a cool little round Worlds Fair museum. Chocked full with artifacts and information on Disney and WED's involvement in the park, and how it really shaped the theme parks going forward. Explain the ties of the Worlds Fair and Epcot. Give people an interesting perspective! While we're at it, include at least one small thing about how Walt's dad helped build the White City for the World Columbian Exposition in Chicago

And just because I found this while Googling and it had a tie, someone put for scale perspective, both Epcot and MK on top of the site plans for the original 1893 Columbian Expedition to show size:

Anyway, after that sidebar. I want the small museum. I want to read about this picture and the story behind it

 

[sshindel]

I'd style the main building based on this, the Tower of Light

I just think it's rad.

Inside would be the event space for demos, for event merch, for all the things in Wonders of Life right now.

And then there is the Unisphere idea that I mentioned earlier. Have it a central fountain by day, and right before Illuminations (or as part of a pre-show), have it make it's way out to the center of the lagoon. I think we could easily still have the fountains surround it, only to pull back a section during it's move.

This one is obviously massive, and while I'd love for the Illuninations globe to be larger and easier to see, I'd be ok I guess on a scaled down version.

For food and drink, there is obviously the '64 Worlds Fair introduced Belgian Waffle (we could even have this on the side close to the Germany pavilion, kind of transitionally themed

We could also draw from some other food found at the fair

And drinks

Lastly, area CMs could be fit with retro costumes

And the stores can sell retro merch like stuff inspired by this:

 

[sshindel]

Here's kinda a half arsed photoshop cut and paste to get an idea of how it might fit. Note: WoL is sitting in for the Tower of Light themed building. I chopped off a little of the show-space that was Body Wars, thinking we didn't need THAT much extra space aside from the standard pavilion.
To the left is the shrunk down NY State Pavilion, next to it on the right is a stand-in for the museum room, then WOL and CoP. I'd make sure that the big empty space would have stuff, and the food-service location needs to go in by the Germany pavilion side. Still, a halfway decent spitball that if I don't upload now, I'll keep tinkering with it all afternoon.

Come to think of it, on the upper-side, facing China would be a good spot for an eatery, with a 4th spoke coming off on a similar angle to the one for the stage pavilion... Plus it would give some decent show-building hiding ability for the backside of China and other backstage areas.

Updated to show that you could put a restaurant the size of Odyssey in there:

I know! An It's a Small World Themed Restaurant! The serving staff can be in SW-themed outfits, serve various global foods.

The building:

The inside can be done up in Mary Blair concept art

Note:
This post started out as a joke. Then I realized that I actually L-O-V-E this idea.

To block backstage sightlines, basically the Tower of Light show-building (festival space) will connect all the way over to the "backstage" area of the NY Pavilion building. The Observation Towers will be forced perspective on the tops of this show building. The space between the main festival building and the stage area will be the shop serving the Belgian waffles. I'll sketch up a general idea tonight, I'm too deep into this to let it drop right now.

 

[sshindel]

By the way, one last thing on this whole Worlds Fair idea before I try and get myself sidetracked onto another topic so that I don't spend too much time digging into this one so much that I'm drawing up many pages of poorly done concept art.

My brain, as it might show and I mentioned earlier today, is odd.

When thinking about Epcot it can be all over the place, as this thread shows.

It is also strangely linear. I have a narrative in my head and all the rambling makes sense to me. I wanted to talk about each Future World pavilion before I went on to something else. I needed to start at the beginning of my "redo" and dive into the aforementioned World's Fair pavilion before moving along.

To that end, the location that I have chosen for this pavilion is the best one from a physical location perspective, but it kind of drives my linear brain nuts from a story narrative perspective.

Why would it make sense to have a huge Worlds Fair section stuffed in a corner between China and Germany? It wouldn't. It's only there because it's a huge expansion area that fits my insane idea.

From a narrative perspective, I hate it though. My brain says that this is a key pavilion, it tells a story about what the World Showcase is/should be. It either belongs in the American Adventure slot, or it belongs at the entrance to World Showcase. That is what makes sense.

Coincidentally, that is where the American pavilion was initially envisioned to exist. Here's an early model of Epcot.

That big pavilion in the front of WS served as gateway to the World Showcase. (Truthfully, Epcot was initially designed to be reversed, entering through World Showcase and proceeding to Future World in the back of the park).

That would make more sense from a narrative perspective to me. It sits as an introduction to the World Showcase, setting the stage for the pavilions to come.

That being said, with Epcot as it stands today, it's not somewhere that really fits, so off to the corner of WS it is! See, I can be reasonable!

Side note, while looking for a picture of this model to illustrate my concept, I found a lot of really cool sites with old non-built country concept art and stuff. I might get to those later.

 

[sshindel]

I'll point out though where "we" are now at this point in the revamp project.
Since Disney is already building the 3rd theater for Soarin' and the giant <not very nice word> that is Arendelle, those projects continue. I'd like to take my changes into account, the Star Tours-like changing film for Soarin over the World, and the moving of the entrance away from The Land and putting it into World Showcase.

We've also now built a big festival space in WS, added an attraction in Carousel of Progress, festival space, small museum, unique merch, a performance space, and a restaurant (I'm torn here, is it Table Service with a varied menu based on maybe some popular Food and Wine favorites, is it table service but kind of Tapas style small plates so you could theoretically taste things from all over the world in one sitting, or is it a food court ala Sunshine Seasons, with booths based on countries out of Small World). We've had to do some land work, filling in the existing channel to the backstage boat house and relocating the boat house, digging a new channel for the unisphere to travel in and out for Illuminations.

Either way, we now have World Showcase that has effectively gained 3 attractions, although one lost from Future World, one from Tomorrowland, and the aforementioned <not very nice word>. We have gained at least one food location. Future World no longer has to give up a pavilion to house the event space.

Next, when I have a moment, let's brainstorm on what to do with that now empty Future World pavilion. I've got two options, but again my preference is to bring back a new, improved Wonders of Life.

 

[sshindel]

Random sidebar:
Totally off subject (see, random brain!)
I found a couple quotes while looking for the above model of Epcot that once again just need to be placed in this manifesto. Some of it has to do with Future World, some World Showcase. It just gets once again back at the heart of what I feel is most important with all of this

With great fanfare, the 1977 Walt Disney Productions Annual Report rather breathlessly heralds the “conceptual breaktrough” of Master Plan 5 – their newest vision of what EPCOT Center would be. To quote CEO Card Walker’s letter to shareholders:

There has never been a greater need for the communication of information about the diverse peoples of our planet, the new systems and technologies evolving to meet the needs of those people, and the alternative decisions we face. Our future depends upon it. For the better we understand today, the choices for tomorrow, the better decisions we will make.

This is what EPCOT Center and its two major themes, Future World and the World Showcase, will be devoted to: the advancement of international understanding and the solution of the problems of people everywhere – through the communication of ideas.

Our dedication to this concept will not be limited to the EPCOT Center site in Florida. It will extend as far as the Disney ability to communicate can reach, including films, television, educational materials and even the licensing of concepts and products. For this reason, we believe, EPCOT Center can open an exciting new dimension for Walt Disney Productions.

At this writing, for example, a series of five television specials exploring each of EPCOT Center’s wide-ranging themes is under development. Our preliminary plans are to inaugurate this series with a gala “Disney Week” on television, recreating the career and dreams of Walt Disney, culminating in a major special on “Walt Disney’s Greatest Dream: EPCOT.”

However, as we have consistently pointed out, EPCOT Center cannot and should not move forward on the financial or creative strength of any one organization. It requires the best thinking and financial support of American industry and the commercial and government interest of other nations as well.

Therefore, while our creative people have been developing the conceptual breakthrough for EPCOT Center, we have continued to seek support for the first phase of World Showcase from foreign industry and governments around the world. Our efforts have included Canada, Costa Rica, England, Israel, Japan, Mexico, Morocco, Poland, Saudi Arabia, South Korea, United Arab Emirates, Venezuela, West Germany, and other countries. Several of these have already indicated their intention to participate as sponsors of pavilions and exhibits in the World Showcase. Others are in varying stages of negotiations which we feel will lead to their participation.

Over the past few months, we have begun to emphasize our concept for EPCOT Center’s Future World. We have discussed the first phase development with such major American corporations as American Telephone & Telegraph, ARCO, Borden, Coca-Cola, Exxon, General Electric, General Motors, IBM, RCA, Sperry Rand, Standard Oil of Indiana, Westinghouse, and others. The initials response from these corporations has been most enthusiastic. And we have entered into negotiations with a number of them which we feel will result in their participation as sponsors of pavilions and exhibits in Future World. We believe EPCOT Center has stimulated many of America’s leading corporations because the EPCOT dynamic is really the America dynamic. It is founded on the principles of American enterprise – and a belief that an informed public can, and will, make better decisions for tomorrow if they understand and believe accurate and relevant information today.
​

later in the same annual report

As conceived here, EPCOT will be a “Showcase for prototype concepts,” demonstrating practical applications of new ideas and systems from creative centers everywhere. It will provide an “on-going forum of the future,” where the best thinking of industry, government and academia is exchanged to communicate practical solutions to the needs of the world community. It will be a “communicator to the world,” utilizing the growing spectrum of information transfer to bring new knowledge to the public. Finally, EPCOT will be a permanent “international people-to-people exchange,” advancing the cause of world understanding.

In addition, we are convinced that EPCOT will provide a much needed symbol of hope and optimism that our major challenges can, and will be met. It will provide outstanding family entertainment from which people may draw enlightenment, as well as enjoyment. And it will, of course, represent a major new extension of our business activities around the world.​

 

[sshindel]

One thing I wanted to do though is show what my (very manly) Pinterest board looks like for my next pavilion on the list, Wonders of Life.

More than most, I just kind of clicked around looking at articles that interested me and that I thought showed some of the cool and important topics that a new, improved WoL pavilion should contain. I want to get around to really digging into this if I can this weekend, but this is I thought a decent taste:

Wonders of Life.

First lets tackle the outside. This one is a pretty easy one to work with. I still want to reinvent Future World as an example of integrating green architecture, and the golden dome of WoL really gives a cool surface to work with.

I'd actually like to still use the golden metal structure to show through, in a pattern with the "green" covering interleaving with the golden metal to make an interesting visual pattern. Maybe the double helix structure going vertically up the dome? Representations of neurons, or cells?

I just think the gold gleaming out from around the natural covering would be a stark and exciting visual effect. I also think the pattern should look good from above.



As for the inside, I think I've mentioned a lot before about what I'd like.
I want an Inside Out redo of Cranium Command. A new and vastly improved Body Wars, an area devoted to vaccines, one to 3D printing and medical uses, one on both healthy body as well as healthy body-image and something like we talked about, an updatable section showing ongoing advances in medical technology.
I think a section devoted to Cancer would be important. The more people thinking about the disease, the more people who might help someday to develop new forms of therapy, new ideas to work towards a "cure". Sure, cancer is depressing, but it does not mean it's not important or worthy of being covered in EPCOT. Speaking of that, I wonder if there is a way to discuss mental health in a way that leads to discussion and acceptance growing in our culture?
I'd like to retain the open feel of the pavilion. The green roof covering should work with the skylights to keep the pavilion bright.
I don't know if I need to go into deeper detail here. Wonders of Life needs to be reinvented and reopened.