Is our nostalgia justified? Or do we look at the past with rose coloured glasses?

[MileLongBar]

RIP Horizons

Everyone is right on here, Disneys decision to kill Horizons was the worst decision in the history of Walt Disney World. It embodied everything Epcot was about. Screw Body Wars and World of Motion. I have fond memories of them, but not nearly as fond as my memories of Horizons. The dagger was the replacement. Its bad enough when they take opening day park attractions down, but to replace it with such a ________ ride is so irritating

 

[muse1983]

Everyone is right on here, Disneys decision to kill Horizons was the worst decision in the history of Walt Disney World. It embodied everything Epcot was about. Screw Body Wars and World of Motion. I have fond memories of them, but not nearly as fond as my memories of Horizons. The dagger was the replacement. Its bad enough when they take opening day park attractions down, but to replace it with such a ________ ride is so irritating

Yeah I agree. Replacing such an imaginative ride with a glorified simulator was pretty sickening. To this day I don't know how anyone would want to ride MS more than once.

 

[Mansion Butler]

Just a question. We all love Disney here and there are a lot of threads about the past attractions now defunct. While we all fantasize about das gone by from time to time, my question is do you feel it's justified at WDW or is our memory clouded? For example:

Mr Toad's Wild Ride - No longer at Magic Kingdom but at Disneyland. Pooh took it's place after 1999 or so. Did we all like that ride so much, or had we been asked in 1991 about Mr. Toad would we have liked the idea of Pooh replacing it?

20,000 Leagues - This is a ride I wish they never got rid of. Is it fond memories that are clouded or was this really a great ride?

These are just examples. But a person that prefered Magic Kingdom the way it was in 1975, or 1980 or 1991 would they be looking at the past with rose coloured glasses and not be able to see how things improved or are they right in their assessment? Same for Epcot which has gone through some changes. Was Horizons as good as we remember?

This goes for anything to do with the parks from the past.

It's both. Often times, I think what we remember was actually better (Horizons, though I think M:S was a good concept), but for most of us, rosey glasses are always involved. Dreamflight, for example, was my favorite ride as a kid. I have much fonder feelings towards in than Buzz. However, other than Buzz in Tomorrowland being a little bit of a hamfisted fit, if I'm honest with myself, it's probably a better attraction.

As far as your examples, though, while I think Winnie the Pooh is actually a good dark ride (not as good as Tokyo's, but still good), Mr Toad was legitimately awesome. And I never went on 20K, but I did go on the original Submarine Voyage a few times, and while it was dated, it was also fun, and Fantasyland was better with it rather than without it. It deserves to be missed, though I think there's a good chance what we're getting will be a nice upgrade (finally) without all the water damage done to the utilidor.

 

[Mansion Butler]

In all honesty, I never found 20,000 Leagues to be much of a ride to begin with and really wasn't all that affected when it left. The same can't be said for Horizons, I miss it dearly.

I was most affected by the loss of a big, beautiful water element.

-Pirates of the Caribbean (prior to Jack Sparrow) -- Rose-Colored

I don't think that's necessarily Rose-colored. The Davey Jones thing is kind of forced, plus his movies weren't good. As are the Sparrow moments, which require an understanding of material outside of the ride. I think the best rides stand on their own, and prior to Jack Sparrow those scenes were just fine.

Now, I also don't think it's ruined PotC. It's a small downgrade, but nothing big. Anyone who thinks it's a dramatically worse ride now is either completely absorbed in nostalgia or just really liked the old upper grotto.

-Mickey Mouse Revue -- Rose-Colored

There are people who liked that more than Philhar?

-If You Had Wings/Dreamflight -- Rose-colored

-Space Mountain (prior to audio) -- Rose-colored

No, it's not rose colored. It's preference. It doesn't stop Space from being one of my favorite attractions, and I get that I'm in a minority and that's fine. But I don't prefer silent SM because of nostalgia. I prefer it because I prefer the eerie lack of a soundtrack on SM.

-Body Wars -- Rose-colored
-Cranium Command -- Borderline

Disagree with both of these, because Body Wars has been replaced by nothing. Unless something is an intrusion on theme, which BW was not, getting rid of it for nothing is a negative. I don't terribly miss Body Wars, but having another attraction to do in Epcot would be a good thing, even if it's a dated ride. Body Wars certainly could have used an update or a complete replacement, but it didn't, it just got closed.

Cranium Command, though, was awesome. So that's even worse.

-Horizons -- Justified

Though I'd rather have Horizons, I think this shouldn't be on the list, as it's entirely a matter of preference. Some people are going to prefer a space simulator that frequently falls in to disrepair over an audio-animatronic extravaganza. While I disagree with them, I also think that's not objectively weird.

-The Living Seas (prior to Nemo) -- Rose-colored

No way. Epcot is much better without single-property characters being shoved in to the concept for an entire pavilion. Nevermind the ride is pretty awful.

-Superstar Television -- Rose-colored
-Monster Sound Show -- Rose-colored

No. You cannot convince me it makes sense to like Sounds Dangerous more than Monster Sound, and there's no way you can convince me Sounds Dangerous is a worthwhile attraction. Monster Sound was kind of interesting. Definitely not an attraction I miss, but it's also definitely be downgraded.

Now, I actually think Idol is a nice concept, and while I don't like the TV show, I have liked the theme park show the couple times I've done it. I think that one is a preference thing. I'd call it a push, but I certainly wouldn't call it rose-colored (or justified).

 

[Mansion Butler]

Well for Snow white's scary adventures, people complained about that ride all the time. saying that it was too scary for little kids but not thrilling enough for older ones. Also people saying it needs work to it. Well now it's going away for good and many people are upset

Same goes for toontown.

Well, I'm not particularly upset about the loss of SWSA, but whether or not people complained about it, losing an attraction for a meet-and-greet is a justified complaint.

Again, I'm not going to complain about it, but I don't think people are silly for having a problem with it. I just disagree with them. It's not like they're shuttering it and only opening it once a year for food demonstrations.

Epcot needs a "here's what we're trying to say" attraction again.

I think they're trying to do that with the descent on Spaceship Earth. The problem with that is that SE is about communication, and the descent is not about communication. And it's boring to spend that much time on an attraction staring at a screen. And it doesn't fit the tone of the attraction.

To this day I don't know how anyone would want to ride MS more than once.

Hi, nice to meet you!

Now you do. BUT, I'd rather have Horizons (sorry, Mr. Sotto :lookaroun), I get sick of having a screen that's messed up and a joystick that doesn't work, and it is rather boring for how much it cost. However, it is a little bit of fun and never has a line, so I usually do do it if I'm spending a full day in Epcot.

 

[Walt Disney1955]

Nostalgia affects emotions in every aspect of life. However, I never really find myself longing for things from older days of Disney theme parks. I think that new technology and innovation make replacing rides a necessity. Walt was the first one to say that he didn't want his parks to become a museum and that he wanted them to change over time.

Well here's the thing. Other than speculation from quotes we don't really know what Walt would have done. All we have is a window from 1955-'66 from Disneyland.

Look at Disneyland as a template. This is nothing short of a perfect park. It misses on things that WDW has the luxury of having (more space, ferry boat ride to the park, monorail to the park giving you the illusion of being "transported" into another world) but in the 11 years Walt was alive he sure added things, but didn't really remove things.

For example:
Dumbo, Snow White, Mr. Toad, Peter Pan, Casey's Circus Train, King Arthur's Carousel, Mad Tea Party, Autopia, Mark Twain Riverboats, Jungle Cruise, Storybook Canal are all 1955 originals that are still there. Add stuff like other classics implemented during Walt's time like Small World, Matterhorn, Alice in Wonderland, Mr. Lincoln and Pirates.

The proof we have is that Walt built around those attractions, the core of the park. He didn't get rid of them because they were "stale". He was a visionary but I'm pretty sure he had a better attention span than the average person in 2011. In other words he seemed to love his classics but it doesn't mean he didn't want to improve them. There is nothing wrong with refurbs, but an outright removal of something precious? Well, in my opinion it's a slap in the face to Walt for WDW getting rid of Snow White for a lousy meet and greet.

WDW has space. They have that luxury and for some reason they never use it. I believe Walt would use it

 

[wolf359]

The problem with that is that SE is about communication, and the descent is not about communication.

I agree with you completely, except for this. I think Spaceship Earth was about communication until this latest version, where they shifted emphasis towards technology.

 

[will341]

When Mr. Toad left I was crushed. When you think about it though if Mr. Toad was still there I think it would be a dead attraction. My little cousins (7 now) see my Mr. Toad shirt and have absolutely no idea who Mr. Toad is but they know who Winnie the Pooh is. Everything changes so it was time and that doesn't make it easier but the kids today have no idea who Mr. Toad is.

 

[Walt Disney1955]

Well, I'm not particularly upset about the loss of SWSA, but whether or not people complained about it, losing an attraction for a meet-and-greet is a justified complaint.

Again, I'm not going to complain about it, but I don't think people are silly for having a problem with it. I just disagree with them. It's not like they're shuttering it and only opening it once a year for food demonstrations.

I was watching a Youtube video the other day. It mentioned the top 10 best animatronic moments on rides. There were a couple Universal ones (E.T.) but most were Disney and one of them was the transformation from Wicked Queen to Wicked Witch.

I will ask this question? Can a meet and greet do that?

In my opinion, when that ride gets shut for good, the complaints will be justified. This will be another ride that you'll have to go to Disneyland just to enjoy (Mr. Toad). And they wonder why Disneyland is by far the superior park compared to Magic Kingdom? This is why.

 

[Mansion Butler]

I agree with you completely, except for this. I think Spaceship Earth was about communication until this latest version, where they shifted emphasis towards technology.

I don't think the ride upwards is about technology in general, I think it's about communication still.

I will ask this question? Can a meet and greet do that?

No, but I don't particularly care.

Well, it can, of course. It probably won't.

And they wonder why Disneyland is by far the superior park compared to Magic Kingdom? This is why.

While "far superior" is an extreme and subjective opinion I don't agree with, I do agree it's superior. But not because of SWSA.

 

[CaptainWinter]

Just a question. We all love Disney here and there are a lot of threads about the past attractions now defunct. While we all fantasize about das gone by from time to time, my question is do you feel it's justified at WDW or is our memory clouded? For example:

Mr Toad's Wild Ride - No longer at Magic Kingdom but at Disneyland. Pooh took it's place after 1999 or so. Did we all like that ride so much, or had we been asked in 1991 about Mr. Toad would we have liked the idea of Pooh replacing it?

20,000 Leagues - This is a ride I wish they never got rid of. Is it fond memories that are clouded or was this really a great ride?

Thanks OP. Excellent topic.

For me, Toad yes, 20K no. If You Had Wings was a personal favorite but I admit, not a huge loss to the larger community. I reeeeeeely liked that one though.

Horizons, WoM, JII, all tragic losses. In summary Future World should be reverted to its original state.

 

[Walt Disney1955]

No, but I don't particularly care.

Well, it can, of course. It probably won't.

It still was an example of a neat feature. Not to mention telling the story of the movie that practically saved the company. Too bad some people don't care.

While "far superior" is an extreme and subjective opinion I don't agree with, I do agree it's superior. But not because of SWSA.

No, but it's a general rule that Magic Kingdom has the inability to use their space properly. Toad and Pooh could co-exist together. Snow White could stay with the Mine Coaster. Disneyland is smaller but has more to offer. I love some of the open areas in the MK (in front of the castle, to the sides of it near the old canal boats, behind the Speedway, etc.) but there is no reason there can't be more done in Fantasyland

 

[Mansion Butler]

It still was an example of a neat feature. Not to mention telling the story of the movie that practically saved the company. Too bad some people don't care.

Yes, it was a neat feature. And the Fantasyland expansion will be an even neater feature and, though I don't understand it, meet-and-greets are a BIG deal and they need one somewhere. Replacing an attraction whose movie is getting a new treatment and is not particularly a huge crowd pleaser with something that, for whatever reason, is makes sense.

Believe me, I understand your sadness about it. I've lost attractions I loved in situations that made sense, too. I'm not telling you you're wrong about caring about the loss of SWSA, I'm telling you its loss makes sense and I personally will not care. And I don't see why it's too bad that people don't.

 

[wolf359]

I don't think the ride upwards is about technology in general, I think it's about communication still.

I think the change from Greek theater to a school, and the new scenes involving large computers to personal computers blur the line between communication and technology as being the focus quite a bit.

 

[Mansion Butler]

I think the change from Greek theater to a school, and the new scenes involving large computers to personal computers blur the line between communication and technology as being the focus quite a bit.

I don't think enough to make that descent video fit. Even if it wasn't cartoony in an otherwise fairly dramatic ride.

 

[wolf359]

Oh, don't mistake my feelings about the shift in theme as even coming close to explaining that the ending somehow fits.

 

[Krack]

-20,000 Leagues Under the Sea -- Borderline
-If You Had Wings/Dreamflight -- Rose-colored
-Universe of Energy (prior to Ellen) -- Rose -colored
-Cranium Command -- Borderline
-World of Motion -- Rose-colored
-Spaceship Earth (prior to interactive screens) -- Rose-colored
-Kitchen Kaberet/Food Rocks -- Borderline
-Superstar Television -- Rose-colored

You lost me.

 

[MAF]

Justified. When classics like Horizions and World of Motion are replaced by "thrill ride" garbage like Mission:Space and Test Track I have a problem.

 

[Mansion Butler]

You lost me.

I scrolled past the Universe of Energy. That's definitely not rose-colored either. Ellen in that ride is just weird and dumb. I wouldn't particularly like it anymore, anyway, but. . . come on.

Justified. When classics like Horizions and World of Motion are replaced by "thrill ride" garbage like Mission:Space and Test Track I have a problem.

I'll definitely take Test Track over World of Motion. I think it's overrated, and could be done better but I also like it more.

I'm with you on Horizons > M:S.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

And I never went on 20K, but I did go on the original Submarine Voyage a few times, and while it was dated, it was also fun, and Fantasyland was better with it rather than without it.

I've felt for a while that losing attractions like 20K and the Skyway were most unfortunate not for the experiences they offered, but for the sense of kinetic energy that was zapped from MK with their absence. Visible motion is a vital part of the park's appeal in my mind. Even if a guest doesn't notice that he misses it, I think the park feels less "alive" without those subs and gondolas going about their business.

I think they're trying to do that with the descent on Spaceship Earth. The problem with that is that SE is about communication, and the descent is not about communication. And it's boring to spend that much time on an attraction staring at a screen. And it doesn't fit the tone of the attraction.

That's the biggest issue. I feel like I'm watching The Jetsons with that stuff.

No way. Epcot is much better without single-property characters being shoved in to the concept for an entire pavilion. Nevermind the ride is pretty awful.

I'm going to agree with the OP on the Seas. I got my first look at the post-Nemo pavilion this month. The ride is mindless fluff for the most part, but I found the projections of the characters inside the tank a genuinely imaginative mix of technology with the existing aquarium...and I had already read about it! For an uninformed visitor from Racine or Hoboken, it must be a very pleasant surprise.

To me, as long as the opportunity to be educated by looking at the sealife still exists, then the story they use to present that opportunity is — while not irrelevant — decidedly secondary. If Nemo gets more kids to go in there and learn something, I'm not going to complain.

Well, in my opinion it's a slap in the face to Walt for WDW getting rid of Snow White for a lousy meet and greet.

I wasn't wild about this idea initially, but some of the things I've read on here make it sound like the two rides (SWSA and the new Dwarfs coaster) simply could not co-exist from a narrative standpoint. It sounds like the new ride will basically rehash the SWSA story in a new way, which if true would make it very hard to justify keeping the old ride — if you care as much about "story" as most of us on here profess to, anyway.

Although it's literally true that SWSA is being replaced with a M&G, in a larger sense it's being "replaced" with a similar ride that might (or might not!) prove to be an upgrade.

Very fun thread! I enjoy wide-ranging discussions like this.