Do you think if Walt was alive Epcot would of been a city, not a park?

Wilt Dasney

Well-Known Member
It's an interesting concept.


Technically, EPCOT (the City ) has already been built and is alive and well. It's the entire Disney Property.

While I do think that Walt's vision for EPCOT would have manifested itself in SOME form (Be it the huge city ,or the one building) I still believe that there would have been a EPCOT Center- a Park for all of this to be exhibited.



See why a name change was so important?;)
Wasn't that the original logic behind the park? That the whole property was technically EPCOT and the park was the symbolic and physical center of it all — thus "EPCOT Center."

So based on that reasoning, when a tourist said he wanted to go to EPCOT, he was just expressing a desire to go to some indeterminate place on property. I can see CM's having fun with that one when people asked for directions.
 

wolf359

Well-Known Member
I think if Walt had guided the theme parks for a longer period of time I think we'd see fewer of the attractions we now consider to be classics. Based on his track record of improving, plussing, and tearing out the old to make room for whatever was newest and most interesting to him I think there would have been much more change in the parks.

The original question about EPCOT the city has always interested me. Part of me thinks that if Walt wanted it, he could have had it, but so much of what he wanted to build required SO much outside involvement it would have been hard to make it happen in the absence of outside support. I think he was VERY optimistic in the late 60's that the various industries required to help build the city and create those innovative systems he wanted to showcase would all line up and be clamoring for the chance to participate in EPCOT.

But I think a lot of that collective optimism that might have been more plentiful in the 60's had dried up by the mid-late 70's when the city would have been seeing most of its construction. Look at how corporate sponsors (or a lack thereof) make or break the construction, upkeep, and updating of attractions or pavilions in the parks today. EPCOT would have required not just a large commitment at the outset for construction, but a constant involvement in its maintenance, upkeep, and constant upgrading.

Disney would never have had the money to build, or even maintain the EPCOT city without generous outside support, and with that outside support would have come outside control. If the various industries involved would have been throwing the money into the project, they certainly would have gained more and more input and control of the entire EPCOT project.

And even worse, perhaps, what would have happened if that support had suddenly or even gradually dried up? We all lament the various cutbacks the resort has gone through, and is going through right now, but imagine how we are constantly talking about fewer fireworks shows and live entertainment. Minor attraction rehabs when a bigger and more comprehensive reworking would be preferred. Postponing or shelving whole attractions because of a lack of funding.

Now imagine instead of seeing cutbacks in simple entertainment opportunities we were dealing with people's homes, jobs, and their entire living community. And how could any company justify ANY improvements to a theme park if they weren't keeping all of the people living IN the EPCOT city well cared for?

As much as part of me would have liked to see Walt's "last, greatest dream" be built and flourish the way he would have wanted it to, I feel like it might have actually been a failure so great it would have threatened everything else we love at Walt Disney World.
 

EPCOT Explorer

New Member
Wasn't that the original logic behind the park? That the whole property was technically EPCOT and the park was the symbolic and physical center of it all — thus "EPCOT Center."

So based on that reasoning, when a tourist said he wanted to go to EPCOT, he was just expressing a desire to go to some indeterminate place on property. I can see CM's having fun with that one when people asked for directions.

Yep! That's what made EPCOT Center and the execution of the idea so cool. :D The world around you was made up of what you saw there, in that park.

Walt Disney World is EPCOT. No bones about it.
 

EPCOT Explorer

New Member
I think if Walt had guided the theme parks for a longer period of time I think we'd see fewer of the attractions we now consider to be classics. Based on his track record of improving, plussing, and tearing out the old to make room for whatever was newest and most interesting to him I think there would have been much more change in the parks.

The original question about EPCOT the city has always interested me. Part of me thinks that if Walt wanted it, he could have had it, but so much of what he wanted to build required SO much outside involvement it would have been hard to make it happen in the absence of outside support. I think he was VERY optimistic in the late 60's that the various industries required to help build the city and create those innovative systems he wanted to showcase would all line up and be clamoring for the chance to participate in EPCOT.

But I think a lot of that collective optimism that might have been more plentiful in the 60's had dried up by the mid-late 70's when the city would have been seeing most of its construction. Look at how corporate sponsors (or a lack thereof) make or break the construction, upkeep, and updating of attractions or pavilions in the parks today. EPCOT would have required not just a large commitment at the outset for construction, but a constant involvement in its maintenance, upkeep, and constant upgrading.

Disney would never have had the money to build, or even maintain the EPCOT city without generous outside support, and with that outside support would have come outside control. If the various industries involved would have been throwing the money into the project, they certainly would have gained more and more input and control of the entire EPCOT project.

And even worse, perhaps, what would have happened if that support had suddenly or even gradually dried up? We all lament the various cutbacks the resort has gone through, and is going through right now, but imagine how we are constantly talking about fewer fireworks shows and live entertainment. Minor attraction rehabs when a bigger and more comprehensive reworking would be preferred. Postponing or shelving whole attractions because of a lack of funding.

Now imagine instead of seeing cutbacks in simple entertainment opportunities we we dealing re with people's homes, jobs, and their entire living community. And how could any company justify ANY improvements to a theme park if they weren't keeping all of the people living IN the EPCOT city well cared for?

As much as part of me would have liked to see Walt's "last, greatest dream" be built and flourish the way he would have wanted it to, I feel like it might have actually been a failure so great it would have threatened everything else we love at Walt Disney World.

VERY well said! I agree with your idea, but I think that if Walt DID want to go about building a E.P.C.O.T. City, it would have been much smaller, and maybe a bit more like what we had/have with the Celebration and the WDW of today.

I would like to believe that he would have called all of WDW EPCOT and have EPCOT Center at it's core. The question is: What kind of park would it be? It's thrilling to think of what Walt could have done with the concept.


And, OP, I applaud you. It's threads like these that make me an EPCOT fan and keep me on these boards!
 

Mr.EPCOT

Active Member
It would have been interesting to see..But now with everything being built for DVC I wouldn't have been surprised if it would've became a Timeshare Town...:brick:

I agree. I'm sure it would have been built as Walt planned, at this point at least half of the homes/apts. would be Timeshare by now.

Well, keep in mind that Orlando would probably be a lot less tourism-oriented were EPCOT built. Sure, we'd have the Magic Kingdom and its immediate resort area, and maybe an EPCOT Center-style Future World industrial park, but there would probably be nothing to the effect of the Studios park, Animal Kingdom, and most of the resort hotels. There might be a water park and other assorted entertainment (e.g. mini-golf) near the Magic Kingdom, and I'm sure much of the Downtown Disney kind of shopping and dining would end up in downtown EPCOT. But instead of Walt Disney World as a catalyst for growth of the tourism industry in Central Florida, it probably would have spurred whatever would be needed for EPCOT's services and technologies. Not necessarily an environment amenable to widespread timeshare as we have now.

Technically, EPCOT (the City ) has already been built and is alive and well. It's the entire Disney Property.

Sure, if you want to go with the Company propoganda line. But in reality, no, EPCOT the city wasn't built. Celebration is nice, but hardly any of that or much else at Walt Disney World certainly did anything of what Walt wanted to accomplish.
 

EPCOT Explorer

New Member
Killing of the font so it makes it easier to read...

Well, keep in mind that Orlando would probably be a lot less tourism-oriented were EPCOT built. Sure, we'd have the Magic Kingdom and its immediate resort area, and maybe an EPCOT Center-style Future World industrial park, but there would probably be nothing to the effect of the Studios park, Animal Kingdom, and most of the resort hotels. There might be a water park and other assorted entertainment (e.g. mini-golf) near the Magic Kingdom, and I'm sure much of the Downtown Disney kind of shopping and dining would end up in downtown EPCOT. But instead of Walt Disney World as a catalyst for growth of the tourism industry in Central Florida, it probably would have spurred whatever would be needed for EPCOT's services and technologies. Not necessarily an environment amenable to widespread timeshare as we have now.



Sure, if you want to go with the Company propoganda line. But in reality, no, EPCOT the city wasn't built. Celebration is nice, but hardly any of that or much else at Walt Disney World certainly did anything of what Walt wanted to accomplis
h.
Well, in the sense that WDW and EPCOT is a community/city than yes, he achieved it.

But when you look at the aspect of testing and using the city to showcase new concepts then, No. EPCOT Center did showcase new systems and technologies but that ideal has slipped away in the New Epcot. The WDW Resort and "City" as a whole exhibits this, but that's just the natures of the beast. It's a resort. If it were to do what it is doing now AND present these matters in a theme park or city setting THEN Walt's EPCOT would be complete.


With this mind, I think that the EPCOT Center park and the current mode of operations is as close as possible to what Walt wanted to do. I think we are pretty darn close to it now, even with a lack luster Epcot, compared to EPCOT Center.;)


Hope that this makes sense!:wave:
 

Mr.EPCOT

Active Member
Well, in the sense that WDW and EPCOT is a community/city than yes, he achieved it.

That's assuming that Walt would be happy with any ol' general planned community. No. He had a plan for a specific design in a specific layout to accomplish specific goals. He was out to try a better way of organizing a community that wouldn't be burdened with the problems of pre-existing cities. That plan was not built.

And in fact, Walt Disney World is regressing on many aspects of what Walt was interested in solving with EPCOT. The most obvious one is transporation. Instead of an efficient transporation system, Disney goes for the cheapest short-term solution, which is to simply keep throwing buses at the problem.
 

EPCOT Explorer

New Member
That's assuming that Walt would be happy with any ol' general planned community. No. He had a plan for a specific design in a specific layout to accomplish specific goals. He was out to try a better way of organizing a community that wouldn't be burdened with the problems of pre-existing cities. That plan was not built.

And in fact, Walt Disney World is regressing on many aspects of what Walt was interested in solving with EPCOT. The most obvious one is transporation. Instead of an efficient transporation system, Disney goes for the cheapest short-term solution, which is to simply keep throwing buses at the problem.

Right...I know what you are saying. But there is a TON, that has taken place that Walt DID want.

But they could always do it better, agreed.;) (didn't you read the rest of my post? :lookaroun: :lol:)
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
Celebration has nearly nothing at all in common with the EPCOT city project, and the corporate line that the whole property is like what Walt envisioned is laughable at best.

Do some research and you'll find what truly could have been an amazing change in the way cities are built.
 

Mr.EPCOT

Active Member
Celebration has nearly nothing at all in common with the EPCOT city project, and the corporate line that the whole property is like what Walt envisioned is laughable at best.

Do some research and you'll find what truly could have been an amazing change in the way cities are built.

Thank yew!

Celebration is like Walt's EPCOT Plan. Only it's a lot more different. I like Walt's EPCOT plan better.

Precisely.
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
While I think it is a tragedy that the original city plan did not work out, it's not too late for the rest of us.

I'm seeing some good developments in transportation changes and some of the other things that have happened since the EPCOT plan, mainly building efficiency, using less overall energy, etc.

I've been working on and off on a project to re-start the EPCOT city plan, however I am not sure what direction it will be going for now. I'm looking at many different things and we're going to be in a state of change over the next 10+ years in many areas.

Perhaps the whole idea will come back to life in a different form, however I seriously doubt that TWDC would have the vision (or investor support) to even think of attempting such a thing.
 

Mr.EPCOT

Active Member
Perhaps the whole idea will come back to life in a different form, however I seriously doubt that TWDC would have the vision (or investor support) to even think of attempting such a thing.

Oh no, unless there is a top to bottom positive change in management, there's no way that Disney would ever even consider it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if any thought of EPCOT at all (be it city or theme park) aggravates many within Disney's upper ranks to no end. It has to be all pixie dust, all the time now.
 

EPCOT Explorer

New Member
Oh no, unless there is a top to bottom positive change in management, there's no way that Disney would ever even consider it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if any thought of EPCOT at all (be it city or theme park) aggravates many within Disney's upper ranks to no end. It has to be all pixie dust, all the time now.

Hence the Epcot of today...EPCOT was different and can easily be different again. The same goes for the city plan and the resort.
 

Since1976

Well-Known Member
It was a crazy plan indeed, and perhaps the only person capable of pulling it off was Walt himself. EPCOT Center was a worthy compromise, IMO.

As for the creative city planning ideas Walt had, many of these were incorporated into Walt Disney World itself. Yes, WDW is not a city in the normal sense, but it is a community which hosts tens of thousands of temporary guests week after week. So, it could be said that WDW *is* EPCOT.
 

EPCOT Explorer

New Member
It was a crazy plan indeed, and perhaps the only person capable of pulling it off was Walt himself. EPCOT Center was a worthy compromise, IMO.

As for the creative city planning ideas Walt had, many of these were incorporated into Walt Disney World itself. Yes, WDW is not a city in the normal sense, but it is a community which hosts tens of thousands of temporary guests week after week. So, it could be said that WDW *is* EPCOT.

Agreed 110%. I would have taken the park over the city any day.
 

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