DAK “Zootopia” is being created for the Tree of Life theater

[AidenRodriguez731]

So basically, Disney could just put a giant pile of dung in the middle of EPCOT, slap a picture of Elsa or Moana on it, and everyone would still flock to it just because there's an IP attached to it?

I mean this is the most obvious straw man argument of all time. Not at all what I said. I said the IP connections are to bring people in. The quality is to make them stay and for the attraction to be more than a one and done for most:

 

[lentesta]

I just Googled Magic Kingdom average wait times and the Little Mermaid is near the very bottom; on average it has one of the lowest wait times in the park. This is obviously anecdotal, but the last two times I was there it was a legitimate walk-on -- we just strolled through the queue and boarded without ever stopping.

I wonder what the data @lentesta has would show, though.

Posted wait times are one thing. We have around 30,000 actual wait times from just this one ride.

Those wait times can be grouped into to clusters, essentially saying there are two "crowd levels" for the ride. Here's a Monte Carlo simulation of what a typical day's actual waits look like, for those two crowd levels:

The red line is the raw data; the blue line uses Lowess smoothing to make it pretty.

So on most days you can say the peak actual wait at Mermaid is between 10 and 25 minutes. That's relatively low. It helps that it's a C-Ticket omnimover, in the back of the park.

 

[jah4955]

It wasn't a matter of invest - it was a matter of design. Even if the japan ride happened, it would have been largely the same issue. WS is a ride desert.. and at the time EPCOT as a whole really lacked any thrill elements. Disney really hammed up Malestrom as this attraction with this thrill element.. and really was such a small piece of it, it came across as way over selling and under delivering. The fact the elements like the dry film at the end were so boring for many really contributed to it all as well. The attraction was weak compared to it's contemporaries elsewhere.

WS Half of EPCOT (not counting non-attraction transportation that existed primarily to help guests traverse such a vast area (Omnibus/Friendships)):

1982: 1 ride
1988 (6 years later): 2 rides
2021 (33 years later): 3 rides (not even any known realistic rumors for any more rides).

Although never intended/planned for WS to be this way, I've always enjoyed WS because (in-part) it's a relative ride desert. I realize I'm in the minority as an adult, and I realized I was in a super-minority as a child, as I vividly remember the stigma that many kids held that EPCOT was dreaded as just a notch less bad than school itself...at least when compared to MK or MGM (nm it opened w/ only 2 rides). Yet...while EPCOT is/was certainly the most "adult" park (especially 1.0), it repeatedly overwhelmed me with inspiration as a child. In other words, I believe they struck that balance of effectively simultaneously (albeit different ways) communicating to both adults and children. Zootopia aside, I hope they are striving for that in everything they develop for WDW going forward.

Also, relatively speaking, Malestrom was considered by many guests, but especially kids (myself included) a genuine thrill ride for that time. Sure it wasn't an inverted coaster and it had tame drops by today's standards (at least since the opening of Splash Mountain 4 years later), but there were at least thrills in the falls themselves ...and even moreso imo...that sensation the boat was going to fall out of the building! At least from a child's perspective I didn't think it was an oversell (& compared to everything else in EPCOT in 1988 it wasn't), and, I'm very sure at least until Test Track opened...Malestrom consistently had the longest waits in all EPCOT (I was so bored staring at that mural w/ the awkward boy "staring" at us....I don't miss that lol).

With what WS has become (all that eating and drinkin' between Food Festivals/Walk around the world/etc), maybe Disney's realized that adding actual thrill rides would not be the most prudent decision in the world.

 

[HMF]

I hate to be the one to admit it, guys... But average, normal people in the world truly dont appreciate originality, art, and effort anymore.

"TV audiences don't want anything original. They wanna see the same thing they've seen a thousand times before."-Phillip J. Fry.

 

[HMF]

So basically, Disney could just put a giant pile of dung in the middle of EPCOT, slap a picture of Elsa or Moana on it, and everyone would still flock to it just because there's an IP attached to it?

Well, they thought they could do it for Animal Kingdom.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

But average, normal people in the world truly dont appreciate originality, art, and effort anymore.

“I happen to think it is the height of arrogance to assert that other theoretical
"people" are not going to understand something that you yourself understand. Like you are better or something. That means your theoretical world of people is full of dumb people. Mine is full of smart, curious people.” - Joe Rohde

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

“I happen to think it is the height of arrogance to assert that other theoretical
"people" are not going to understand something that you yourself understand. Like you are better or something. That means your theoretical world of people is full of dumb people. Mine is full of smart, curious people.” - Joe Rohde

Who is talking about theoretical people?

Is there ANY counterargument or counter data that doesn't support the position that the general public is consuming entertainment based upon known IP or pre-existing offerings? Movies, Television, ect., the top grossing of all of them are either 1) Sequels/Prequels. 2) Reboots. 3) Based on pre-existing IP, books, comics, ect. This has been true for the better part of two decades. So, why wouldn't Disney follow this trend if that is what consumers are actively looking for/buying?

Also, there is no down side to using existing IP, but tremendous upside. If a ride is great, its going to be great. The fact that it is linked to existing IP/Merchandising opportunities only means that you have a build in potential fan base preexisting to help the ride, and to sell merchandise. It also means you are not paying licensing fees. So the pre-existing IP could help support a less then great ride, only bolsters a great ride, and acts as a potential risk hedge. Why not lean into those advantages?

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Is there ANY counterargument or counter data that doesn't support the position that the general public is consuming entertainment based upon known IP or pre-existing offerings?

IP has always been a part of Disney parks, I’m not sure I understand your reply to my post.

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

IP has always been a part of Disney parks, I’m not sure I understand your reply to my post.

I was responding, to your response to the line "But average, normal people in the world truly dont appreciate originality, art, and effort anymore."

Just that it really isn't theoretical that people now adays don't appreciate originality, at least in a consumer entertainment spending arena

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Just that it really isn't theoretical that people now adays don't appreciate originality, at least in a consumer entertainment spending arena

zootopia itself was original - it was not based on anything existing.

As was Encanto and Moana.

I’m sorry if I’m missing your point entirely - I may have missed some posts and don’t understand the context.

 

[flyerjab]

I hate to be the one to admit it, guys... But average, normal people in the world truly dont appreciate originality, art, and effort anymore. Most people really do have the mindsets of "I know dat movie! Woo!" and "This ride goes zoom zoom fast! Best ride ever!"

And there is no sense in continuing the unending argument with these people... Which, again (sadly), make up the majority of the average human population, and the average tourist that visits Disney World.

And this is a message I have stated since I was 13 years old on these threads (im 27 now). But I feel like that message is more important now than ever.

On the flip side, to the annoying folks who keep replying with "YoU jUSt cAnT aCCepT ChAnGe!!!" ....We come here to complain about what we lost because it is near impossible to find that many likeminded people in the real world that give a s***. It is nice to be able to vent somewhere about what was, what could have been, and what could be but wont happen.

Someone here said recently that there is a difference between "Disney Adults" and "Theme Park Enthusiasts" and I 100% agree. I wish the average Disney Adult Pixie Duster would just stay in those Facebook groups tho instead of taking over the forums and threads here that just enjoy discrediting intellectual discussions with "New is always better. You're stupid for thinking old was better" posts all the time.

Two very different types of fandoms are just increasingly getting more tense because Disney truly is changing in favor for the generic fandom. And I wish that generic fandom would just stay on Facebook. Because the theme park enthusiasts need a place to escape from you guys. We dont have a large community. Let us have our rants.

I’m just getting this in now before this post gets wiped. Of the majority of posts I have rolled my eyes at in my time on these forums, this is truly the height of arrogance. But hey, you do you chief.

 

[DisneyHead123]

It would not do THAT good imo. Simply put

If they absolutely needed IP they could make it Nat Geo’s oceans or something. I’m not saying it would be a Guardians but I think if visually stunning and atmospheric it could do better than Mermaid and Nemo. Keep in mind I’m not talking about neon plastic fish, I’m thinking something gorgeous and realistic like a ride through art display.

 

[DisneyHead123]

Are you talking just WDW? Mystic Manor opened in 2013 and seems like people like it. I wouldn't complain about having something like that at any Disney park.

Good point, although Mystic Manor is kind of a grey area as it was a replacement for Haunted Mansion, which was an early / beloved park ride. I don’t know if being a stand in for HM had any impact.

 

[flynnibus]

They have data since the Little Mermaid opened and have it as consistently near the bottom of all rides at the Magic Kingdom

I’d do the actual math to show otherwise … but I don’t think you’d take it in anyway. The averages speak for themselves. For anytime you point out a walk on… you can find times they aren’t. That’s why we use long term data, not anecdotal spots.

 

[flynnibus]

So basically, Disney could just put a giant pile of dung in the middle of EPCOT, slap a picture of Elsa or Moana on it, and everyone would still flock to it just because there's an IP attached to it?

The reason they do it is a good number of people would give it a shot based on the picture…. And that’s why they do it

Stop insisting on absolutes and recognize it’s done as a piece of the puzzle

 

[jah4955]

“I happen to think it is the height of arrogance to assert that other theoretical
"people" are not going to understand something that you yourself understand. Like you are better or something. That means your theoretical world of people is full of dumb people. Mine is full of smart, curious people.” - Joe Rohde

"If a man is unable to appreciate the finest music in the world, the fault is not in the music, but in him." - William Barclay

 

[flynnibus]

I didn't think it was an oversell (& compared to everything else in EPCOT in 1988 it wasn't), and, I'm very sure at least until Test Track opened...Malestrom consistently had the longest waits in all EPCOT

I don’t recall that. I know it had good waits largely because it was the only non show besides Mexico… which was pretty good capacity. Remember in v1.0 Epcot all of future world was very high capacity except for the seas entrance. Everything else were people eaters… maelstrom was not.

 

[jah4955]

I don’t recall that. I know it had good waits largely because it was the only non show besides Mexico… which was pretty good capacity. Remember in v1.0 Epcot all of future world was very high capacity except for the seas entrance. Everything else were people eaters… maelstrom was not.

Oh yes those were all, definitely, factors as well . But...fast forward to the naughts...wasn't Malestrom was one of the only original EPCOT Fastpass 1.0 offerings?

 

[LittleBuford]

"If a man is unable to appreciate the finest music in the world, the fault is not in the music, but in him." - William Barclay

Where did you find this?

 

[flynnibus]

Oh yes those were all, definitely, factors as well . But...fast forward to the naughts...wasn't Malestrom was one of the only original EPCOT Fastpass 1.0 offerings?

Dunno, you got me there.. OG fastpass was during my 'traveling period' where I didn't visit the parks for about 8yrs. Wasn't until my kids were big enough that we started going back to the parks. During that time I would even be in Anaheim right next to the parks and wouldn't make time for Disney.. Living life faster than Disney pace