MK New Beak and Barrel - Pirates of the Caribbean-themed lounge

JMcMahonEsq

Well-Known Member
That the dining capacity lost by the closures of the Adventureland Verandah and Tomorrowland Terrace still have not been fully replaced despite significant increases in visitation.
Didn't the AV close like 30 years ago as a full time location? I am not going to go through the exercise to see what, if any, locations have opened up since then which could be considered as replacing that lost capacity (I believe at minimum Skipper Canteen would be one of them) but seems like a stretch to be talking about replacing capacity that hasn't been there for 3 decades.
 

networkpro

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
Didn't the AV close like 30 years ago as a full time location? I am not going to go through the exercise to see what, if any, locations have opened up since then which could be considered as replacing that lost capacity (I believe at minimum Skipper Canteen would be one of them) but seems like a stretch to be talking about replacing capacity that hasn't been there for 3 decades.

Correct, 1994 after the Kikkoman sponsorship concluded (no great loss there pineapple, teriyaki burgers, sweet and sour hotdogs and stir fry)
 

𝐌𝖆𝖓 𝖎𝖓 𝐖𝖊𝖇

Long-Forgotten
Premium Member
this concept art doesn't scream "bar" to me ... This looks like family entertainment
If this is truly meant to be catering to adults without kids like a true "bar" then they didn't do a good job of early messaging/setting expectations

View attachment 875532
This. And they're not making any headway in correcting that messaging on the main Disney page. The concept art and clearly some of the decor... is family friendly but the menu is anything but. I suspect they shifted the focus. Perhaps the concept isn't even the same. Have we heard anything more about the parrot and captain?
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Didn't the AV close like 30 years ago as a full time location? I am not going to go through the exercise to see what, if any, locations have opened up since then which could be considered as replacing that lost capacity (I believe at minimum Skipper Canteen would be one of them) but seems like a stretch to be talking about replacing capacity that hasn't been there for 3 decades.
Visitation has increased significantly over the past 30 years.
 

JMcMahonEsq

Well-Known Member
This. And they're not making any headway in correcting that messaging on the main Disney page. The concept art and clearly some of the decor... is family friendly but the menu is anything but. I suspect they shifted the focus. Perhaps the concept isn't even the same. Have we heard anything more about the parrot and captain?
Having drinks with Cookie crumble, and pirate gold isn't family friendly?

Or one that comes with cake, chocolate cannon balls, and popcorn doesn't scream kid sugar overload fun?

The galley offerings are going to be subject to personal taste. Corn cakes with melted cheese seems pretty family friendly to me, but i have kid that hates cheese so even a regular grilled cheese isn't friendly for him. The island provision chips seem pretty universally non-threatening as well.
 

JMcMahonEsq

Well-Known Member
Visitation has increased significantly over the past 30 years.
So?

You want to relate the number of restaurants and/seats available for dinning back at a certain time period and its attendance figures, to what is available now, as an argument that there needs to be more dining options, I guess you could do so. Would be rather simplistic without taking into account alot of other factors, such as speed of service, number of guests that enjoy full sit down meals vs quick service or snacks as an eating trend now adays, but sure, you could try it.

Just randomly citing to a single location that has been closed for over 30 years as a reason to replace that capacity is useless. Its been gone for longer than a significant portion of the attendees of the park have been alive.
 

TheMaxRebo

Well-Known Member
I assumed it would be just like Ogas. Seems like its similar.

Probably ... And maybe just b/c it was announced around the time as GEO-82 and that was was messaged "adults only" and in contrast this was "pirates of all ages", just felt was positioned more family friendly than the menu appears
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
So?

You want to relate the number of restaurants and/seats available for dinning back at a certain time period and its attendance figures, to what is available now, as an argument that there needs to be more dining options, I guess you could do so. Would be rather simplistic without taking into account alot of other factors, such as speed of service, number of guests that enjoy full sit down meals vs quick service or snacks as an eating trend now adays, but sure, you could try it.

Just randomly citing to a single location that has been closed for over 30 years as a reason to replace that capacity is useless. Its been gone for longer than a significant portion of the attendees of the park have been alive.
It’s only useless if you want to put your head in the sand. It’s two large venues that have no been replaced. It doesn’t need a full programmatic breakdown (which isn’t the mysterious voodoo you suggest) to simply understand that these two large venues have not been replaced even as visitation has increased. That doesn’t even account for smaller venues like Tortuga Tavern that are closed more often than open.
 

invader

Well-Known Member
this concept art doesn't scream "bar" to me ... This looks like family entertainment

If this is truly meant to be catering to adults without kids like a true "bar" then they didn't do a good job of early messaging/setting expectations

View attachment 875532
The person carrying a tray of drinks, the back bar, the guy on the bar holding a beer mug, and the people lifting their glasses to cheers didn’t scream bar?
 

JMcMahonEsq

Well-Known Member
It’s only useless if you want to put your head in the sand. It’s two large venues that have no been replaced. It doesn’t need a full programmatic breakdown (which isn’t the mysterious voodoo you suggest) to simply understand that these two large venues have not been replaced even as visitation has increased. That doesn’t even account for smaller venues like Tortuga Tavern that are closed more often than open.
Leaving alot of the absurdity of this aside lets just hit some lowlights.

First, its useless because there is no context as to what the overall capacity was back in 1994, nor is they any evidence that that's the time we should be looking at as to the "correct" food offering to attendance ratio. Hell for all anyone knows back in 1993 the park had too much food capacity, and the removal of AV was a correction that made sense.

Second the idea that the capacity hasn't been replaced in 30 years is just factually wrong. Skipper Cantee was build AFTER AV closed, which brought new eating capacity/spots into MK. Mobile ordering has been introduced which has increased the ability of throughput at quick service which has a net effect of increasing capacity. How many other restaurants, kiosks, snack stands/carts have been added after AV closed? So to say those seats haven't been replaced is flat out wrong. To say that the overall meals/capacity has been reduced since 1994 is speculation.

Third, again this was 30 years ago. Even assuming there was a higher seat/meal to attendance ratio/capacity back in 1994 (which we have no evidence of) than there is today, there is nothing that would show that having such a ratio now is needed.

Arbitrarily picking a snapshot in time, and assuming figures then, and comparing them to, no figures now, is completely useless.
 

JMcMahonEsq

Well-Known Member
I don’t get the tables with benches.

I don’t think you want a space that small to appeal to everyone, otherwise it’s just something no one can get into - just doing the math.
I don't know if its just for the ascetics of the artwork, but i know communal bench seating was not unusual in 1700/1800 community tavern type settings. So long tables with benches i would say would actually be pretty period authentic, although not sure ideal/economical use of space for modern seating/families.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
First, its useless because there is no context as to what the overall capacity was back in 1994, nor is they any evidence that that's the time we should be looking at as to the "correct" food offering to attendance ratio. Hell for all anyone knows back in 1993 the park had too much food capacity, and the removal of AV was a correction that made sense.
It’s funny how you keep trying to reduce it to one venue that you can incorrectly claim was fully replaced. It was not just one venue. The idea that attendance rose and required closing more venues is a complete farce.

Second the idea that the capacity hasn't been replaced in 30 years is just factually wrong. Skipper Cantee was build AFTER AV closed, which brought new eating capacity/spots into MK. Mobile ordering has been introduced which has increased the ability of throughput at quick service which has a net effect of increasing capacity. How many other restaurants, kiosks, snack stands/carts have been added after AV closed? So to say those seats haven't been replaced is flat out wrong. To say that the overall meals/capacity has been reduced since 1994 is speculation.
A table service restaurant allocates more square footage per person than a quick service restaurant. Turnover at table service is also greater than quick service, averaging about 60 mins versus 20 - 30 minutes for quick service. These two facts mean that a quick service will have about 2x - 3x the hourly capacity of a table service that occupies the same size. Skipper Canteen is not only not 2x the size of the Adventureland Verandah, it is in fact a smaller venue occupying only a portion of the space.

Be Our Guest is not 2x the size of the Tomorrowland Terrace which also goes unused as a quick service venue.

Mobile Order does not somehow magically increase kitchen output, it does nothing to increase capacity.

In -ark programming, kiosks often only get a partial meal count when calculating meals capacity because they offer what is more considered a snack than a full meal. Even where they do count as a full meal service, they are absolutely nothing compared to the output of a well designed quick service kitchen. They simply don’t match in terms of capacity. Carts and ODV usually doesn’t even count for meals and are even less capacity.

No speculation necessary if you know the basic numbers involved. It’s like saying a mini-can is a full replacement for a 2L bottle.

Third, again this was 30 years ago. Even assuming there was a higher seat/meal to attendance ratio/capacity back in 1994 (which we have no evidence of) than there is today, there is nothing that would show that having such a ratio now is needed.
There are more people and they aren’t eating substantially less food in a day. Not hard to figure out.
 

JMcMahonEsq

Well-Known Member
It’s funny how you keep trying to reduce it to one venue that you can incorrectly claim was fully replaced. It was not just one venue. The idea that attendance rose and required closing more venues is a complete farce.


A table service restaurant allocates more square footage per person than a quick service restaurant. Turnover at table service is also greater than quick service, averaging about 60 mins versus 20 - 30 minutes for quick service. These two facts mean that a quick service will have about 2x - 3x the hourly capacity of a table service that occupies the same size. Skipper Canteen is not only not 2x the size of the Adventureland Verandah, it is in fact a smaller venue occupying only a portion of the space.

Be Our Guest is not 2x the size of the Tomorrowland Terrace which also goes unused as a quick service venue.

Mobile Order does not somehow magically increase kitchen output, it does nothing to increase capacity.

In -ark programming, kiosks often only get a partial meal count when calculating meals capacity because they offer what is more considered a snack than a full meal. Even where they do count as a full meal service, they are absolutely nothing compared to the output of a well designed quick service kitchen. They simply don’t match in terms of capacity. Carts and ODV usually doesn’t even count for meals and are even less capacity.

No speculation necessary if you know the basic numbers involved. It’s like saying a mini-can is a full replacement for a 2L bottle.


There are more people and they aren’t eating substantially less food in a day. Not hard to figure out.
For so many words, its crazy that you come no where near any tangible data to support your point.

Do you anywhere point to what capacity was in 1994...no.

Do you anywhere show that capacity for food has been reduced since 1994....or increased....no, because you don't have any data. You have nothing to support your point other than a certain place was closed 30 years ago, no one missed it, but somehow it needs to be replaced. And what makes it all even more useless, is that none of that matters.

You also have absolutely nothing to show that no matter the positive/negative change in number of food offering available now versus some arbitrary time in the past, that there is a practical LACK of availability NOW, given current demand. What was there in 1994 is about as useful information as tits on a bull, when determining if there is a proper amount of capacity NOW, for the current attendees. It doesn't matter what happened in the past. It doesn't matter what the actual food capacity was back in 1994, 1975, 2005, or any other time period. What matters is that is the available offerings NOW appropriate for the customers of today.

I can point very easily to the data that MK didn't have an offering to provide attendees a place where they could get an adult beverage outside of a sit down full meal restaurant. This undisputedly fills a hole that wasn't been served prior to it coming into existence. Show many anything that points to the fact that today, Disney needs more standard food capacity, other than a call back to pepperidge farm days that grandpa could get his pineapple burger and he can't now.

That's discounting the ideas that mobile ordering doesn't increase throughput, which almost any industry survey/study shows it does, or that eating trends haven't changed.
 

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