Would You Take a Bullet Train from Anaheim to Las Vegas?... Brightline West

[chadwpalm]

I’m a Vegas native and 90% of our vacations in my childhood were California-focused. Some Utah! But mostly California.

Well, yeah, when I was a child......heck....up to my early 20's I loved traveling around California and even took yearly trips with my family up into the City (I'm a south bay native) to hang out and shop, but California is a much different place now than it was 30-40 years ago. As someone with a tech degree I'm really hoping I can find good work here in Vegas, but I'd honestly rather switch professions or get a lower paying job than to have to work or live in California again. Heck, I'd probably move to Texas and look for tech work there before moving back to Cali. To each their own though.

A lot of my friends who are still based in Vegas are forced to CA for job/business reasons, as we don’t really have a real professional market in Vegas. So there are some use cases!

Some people are willing to compromise. I'm not.

All super valid. I’m just so sick of that 4 hour drive that I’ll gladly pay the extra cost to not have to drive. Hypothetical HSR makes that even easier.

Didn't you say above that you live in San Francisco now? So those 4 hour trips are now more like 7. It's why when I lived in San Jose I'd split my trips to Anaheim between driving and flying. 4 hours seems nice compared to the 6.5 to 7 hour trips I was used to. In fact, I'm driving down there next week to go to Disneyland for a day, so I'll have to see how it compares.

 

[DarkMetroid567]

HSR feels like a cart before the horse problem, HSR makes a ton of sense between areas with good existing public transit but if the area doesn’t already have good transit you still need a car in the end.

It makes better sense for areas with good existing transit, definitely, but it works largely as a replacement for flights anyways and doesn’t necessarily require it.

And the transit in LA (not OC) has built up enough where it could be serviceable. SF/Bay Area already has great transit (for American standards) and I could feasibly walk to Salesforce, take CAHSR, and take LA Metro to Universal Studios or Century City from Union Station.

Vegas makes it a little more difficult lol. It’s basically impossible to take the bus from LAS but if Brightline’s station ends up close to the Belz mall, I believe the Deuce station is fairly close to there and RTC could add a bus connection. Wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world. But Rancho Cucamonga would indeed be hard to figure out. I’d never fly to Ontario, for example.

 

[TP2000]

Love my car and the freedom to go any where any time I want

Agreed. In fact, it's Fun To Be Free!

in a tube full of randos on seats that require bus pants.

What, pray tell, are "bus pants"???

That's a fashion concept I've never heard of, and I voted YES on Prop 1A back in '08! Maybe I would have changed my vote if I knew what bus pants were?

But for shorter trips, walking and cycling work great. Very different situations.

Yes, they do. There are many lovely little towns and hamlets in SoCal to spend time in. Laguna Beach, Old Town Orange, La Jolla, Balboa, Pasadena, etc., etc.

Not as long as I can put down the top and row the gears on a mountain road.

Now there's a lady who gets it! I love that!

Earlier this month I drove the 453 miles from my driveway in Utah to the old family beach house in La Jolla. I set the speed at 80mph exactly for almost the entire trip, and with a pit stop for lunch and a visit to the powder room at Ceasar's Palace, I made it in just under 8 hours. Blasting across the desert Southwest in July with the temp outside near 100 and the car a cocoon of comfort and ease, catching up on several hours of interesting podcasts.

But the second I pulled off the freeway in San Diego and saw the outside temp was 68, the top came down immediately at the first stop light on La Jolla Village Drive and I coasted over the hill and into town with the Beach Boys blasting (politely) to start my summer!

And now, I'm here 450 miles away, and I still have my own car to drive around in and go wherever I like, whenever I like.

A convertible, especially in California, is pure heaven.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

I’m just so sick of that 4 hour drive that I’ll gladly pay the extra cost to not have to drive. Hypothetical HSR makes that even easier.

I’ve said this dozens of times but I inevitably end up driving anyway.

When I look into flying it always boils down to it’s cheaper to drive, ends up taking the same amount of time (when you factor in driving to the airport, parking, going thru security, etc), I’m on my own timeline instead of the airlines, and I’ll have a car when I get there. As much as I hate CA traffic there’s too many pros that outweigh the cons.

I even looked into taking Brightline to Rancho Cucamonga and then public transport to DL but it would end up taking a couple hours longer than the average drive, and cost significantly more.

I can say with 100% certainty that if the HSR went to the shell looking station near DL I’d never drive to the LA metro again though. 90% of my trips to CA involve DL or one of the beach areas (relatively) nearby, the last 10% to San Diego, hopefully at some point they’ll connect Orange county (and SD) to Rancho via light rail or some other reasonable transit that doesn’t require going all the way to downtown LA just to get to OC.

 

[DarkMetroid567]

Well, yeah, when I was a child......heck....up to my early 20's I loved traveling around California and even took yearly trips with my family up into the City (I'm a south bay native) to hang out and shop, but California is a much different place now than it was 30-40 years ago. As someone with a tech degree I'm really hoping I can find good work here in Vegas, but I'd honestly rather switch professions or get a lower paying job than to have to work or live in California again. Heck, I'd probably move to Texas and look for tech work there before moving back to Cali. To each their own though.


Some people are willing to compromise. I'm not.

Definitely! We all have our preferences. My history in the Bay only dates back to about 20 years ago (and I only recently started living here) so I definitely don’t have a view on how much it’s changed.

So many of the Vegas locals have a similar feeling on how Vegas has changed, and it certainly has, but it still feels like home for me.

Didn't you say above that you live in San Francisco now? So those 4 hour trips are now more like 7. It's why when I lived in San Jose I'd split my trips to Anaheim between driving and flying. 4 hours seems nice compared to the 6.5 to 7 hour trips I was used to. In fact, I'm driving down there next week to go to Disneyland for a day, so I'll have to see how it compares.

Haha, yup. I do a lot of 2-4 hour drives for my roller coaster trips and it always kills me. I’ve done the Vegas to Oakland drive or Vegas to Reno drive enough to know that I despise it. Though I will say driving on the west coast feels a lot easier than it does on the east coast. I’d do the Vegas-Anaheim drive a million times before I’d do the MCO-Tampa drive again. That one killed me, despite being half as long.

 

[chadwpalm]

What, pray tell, are "bus pants"???

 

[TP2000]

I live in San Francisco. Waymo is great. But a full-on replacement for car transport / transportation in general it is not.

HSR probably needs to happen — don’t really care how or why, but at a certain point push will come to shove

I think at this point, the only viable option is for private enterprise to step in and do it. If there is a market for that product, and if it pencils out, then it will get done. Perhaps by Brightline.

But it's not happening any time soon. And likely not within most of our lifetimes. (Any high school kids posting here, to better the chances?)

For now, the California High Speed Rail will likely exist only as 100 miles or so of abandoned viaducts and railbeds in the Central Valley, with two big semi-abandoned and mostly forgotten bullet train stations on either end of the 2008 route; the Transbay Transit Center in San Francisco, and the ARTIC in Anaheim.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

What needed to happen was the tunnel…. Then if nothing else Amtrak or Brightline could build “regular” tracks and link LA to San Francisco in reasonable time.

 

[lazyboy97o]

In hindsight I bet they wish they picked any other starting point, had they built the much shorter San Diego to LA portion, or even the LA to Vegas line, it would probably be open and welcoming riders already.

I think once people experience HSR they’ll see the value in it, assuming they can easily get to their final destination, but with tens of billions of dollars spent, and the projections skyrocketing, the fact that not a single inch of rail is on the ground has doomed CAHSR.

I will be shocked if it ever sees a single passenger.

There was some good reporting a few years ago on why SNCF walked away from the project. They were flabbergasted by the tinkering with the route.

 

[TP2000]

Yes, because sitting at a traffic light outside a strip mall is so much more freeing than walking down a street and engaging with the world.

That depends on where you live. In both little towns I spend the year in, the sidewalks are lovely and have cute shops and restaurants, salons, galleries, etc.. I enjoy them both.

But if you live in Los Angeles, your sidewalks often look like this now. It's not safe to walk, and there is no sidewalk left anyway. Pedestrians are now forced to walk in the gutter and/or street.

At least on the LA beaches, the tents stay mostly on the sand. But can you imagine if they redid the opening of Three's Company today and had Jack, Janet and Chrissy riding their bikes in Santa Monica along these scenes of societal collapse?

Dawn-day-non-day-de-vous!

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

But if you live in Los Angeles, your sidewalks often look like this now. It's not safe to walk, and there is no sidewalk left anyway.

Thankfully there are no tent cities between union station and Phillipe!

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

There was some good reporting a few years ago on why SNCF walked away from the project. They were flabbergasted by the tinkering with the route.

I’ve read a few articles regarding the French pulling out saying the route was feasible but not with all the bureaucracy and meddling from all the different cities and wish lists involved.

I still think the route should have been built in the wide open fields of the San Joaquin Valley with spurs into Bakersfield, Fresno, and Modesto… could have had 50% express trains that ran direct from LA to SF with the other 50% stopping at all the stops. We took the HSR from Paris to Brussels and it had a stop like that in Lille, the spur allowed a simple line to the heart of the city while still allowing 90% of the track be built in unoccupied farmland. CA created the most difficult and expensive path imaginable through nearly every inhabited area between LA and SF.

 

[TP2000]

What needed to happen was the tunnel…. Then if nothing else Amtrak or Brightline could build “regular” tracks and link LA to San Francisco in reasonable time.

Exactly. But that segment over the mountains to Palmdale was, and always will be, the biggest cost of the entire project. Plus then you have to plug it into the system by getting through the suburbs to Union Station, and that would require a lot of expensive right of way purchases, likely devolving into eminent domain situations.

It was a political nightmare for government to get done, so they stuck their head in the sand and pretended they didn't need to worry about how to get the train over the mountains and into the LA basin.

Instead, they focused on the cheapest and easiest segment to design, the Central Valley segment that went through flatlands and farmlands that no one of any importance (Read: Not LA or San Francisco) cared about.

The whole thing is a textbook example of why government can't get stuff done, even when you throw $15 Billion at it and everyone in the local and state governments are all in the same political party.

And this one is going to leave a mark, I'm afraid. People are fed up over it.

 

[TP2000]

There was some good reporting a few years ago on why SNCF walked away from the project. They were flabbergasted by the tinkering with the route.

I've seen that same reporting. No one who actually runs high speed rail wants anything to do with this project because the route makes no sense.

The gang in Sacramento got together and started divvying up favors and credits to each other, and they ended up with a route that serves small unimportant cities (Sorry, Bakersfield) and overgrown farm towns like Merced. Which makes the entire premise of getting from LA to San Francisco quickly and efficiently impossible to pencil out.

If I were King Of California, I would have sent the train out of Union Station right up the coast on the current Coast Starlight route to Santa Barbara, then shot slightly inland on a beeline to San Jose and up the peninsula. With a stop at San Luis Obispo.

Phase 2 in the 2030's would be an expansion of that main line from San Francisco across the bay to Oakland and on to Sacramento. And south from Anaheim to Irvine and San Diego, going right downtown in an expanded Santa Fe Depot complex.

Finally... in some mythical Phase 3 during the 2060's, you could then build a spur line south of Sacramento to Bakersfield. Basically upgrading the existing San Joaquin Amtrak route to 220mph service. For those few dozen people per day who want to get from Fresno to Bakersfield in a hurry, for some reason.

 

[TP2000]

Thankfully there are no tent cities between union station and Phillipe!

Lots of restaurants and businesses are shutting down in LA now. The downtown vacancy rate is now at 40% and going higher. A month or so ago there was news that a 110 year old restaurant in downtown LA was closing and their claim to fame was that they invented the French Dip sandwich. The news report briefly mentioned that Phillip's begs to differ.

I am firmly in the Phillipe's camp on that one. I don't want to go to downtown LA, but I'm glad to know it's still there somehow!

Downtown LA’s downturn: What’s behind the business exodus? | Press Play

Today, about one-third of office space in downtown LA sits empty. It’s a far cry from the once-booming real estate market in the city’s urban core. Why?

www.kcrw.com

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

I've seen that same reporting. No one who actually runs high speed rail wants anything to do with this project because the route makes no sense.

The gang in Sacramento got together and started divvying up favors and credits to each other, and they ended up with a route that serves small unimportant cities (Sorry, Bakersfield) and overgrown farm towns like Merced. Which makes the entire premise of getting from LA to San Francisco quickly and efficiently impossible to pencil out.

If I were King Of California, I would have sent the train out of Union Station right up the coast on the current Coast Starlight route to Santa Barbara, then shot slightly inland on a beeline to San Jose and up the peninsula. With a stop at San Luis Obispo.

Phase 2 in the 2030's would be an expansion of that main line from San Francisco across the bay to Oakland and on to Sacramento. And south from Anaheim to Irvine and San Diego, going right downtown in an expanded Santa Fe Depot complex.

Finally... in some mythical Phase 3 during the 2060's, you could then build a spur line south of Sacramento to Bakersfield. Basically upgrading the existing San Joaquin Amtrak route to 220mph service. For those few dozen people per day who want to get from Fresno to Bakersfield in a hurry, for some reason.

Would that follow the 101?

It’s crazy when you look at a map how there’s 2 OBVIOUS paths the CAHSR could have easily gone, along the 101 or along the 5, but they chose to run it through 200 miles of built up cities and towns that probably increased the price and complexity 1000%.

Had they just built it along the obvious roads, like Brightline is doing, it would probably be open already.

 

[TP2000]

I’ve said this dozens of times but I inevitably end up driving anyway.

This is how it pencils out for most families doing something like going to Disneyland. By the time you get a family of four into the average American car that gets 25mpg, drive them from home to Mickey & Friends and pay $30 to park, it's always cheaper than the train. Always.

The train can often pencil out for a solo traveler, or maybe two people. But a family of 3 or more? It's cheaper to take the car.

La Jolla to Disneyland Main Entrance for Happy Family of Four
Car = $92 and 4.5 Hours Travel Time Round Trip
Trolley/Train/Bus = $228 and 7.5 Hours Travel Time Round Trip

Late Model Toyota Camry at 25mpg combined city/highway, gas $4.50 per gallon. 85 Miles each way = $32 gas
Mickey & Friends Parking = $35
Daily cost of car loan, insurance, maintenance = $25
2 Hours Each Way with moderate traffic and 30 minutes spent transiting at Resort

MTS 1 Day Adult Pass $6, MTS 1 Day Child Pass = $18
Pacific Surfliner Round Trip Coach Tickets from Old Town Station to ARTIC, 2 Adults, 2 Children = $210
ART Bus Free With Amtrak Ticket = $0
3 Hours 34 Minutes Each Way, with 15 minutes spent transiting at Resort

 

[TP2000]

Would that follow the 101?

Fairly close, but often not directly alongside like Brightline is doing with I-15.

The Coast Starlight is a gorgeous route, along the old Southern Pacific Coast Daylight route from the 1930's. It goes north out of LA across the San Fernando Valley and over the Vasquez Rocks, then shoots down into Ventura and hugs the coast all the way to Vandenberg Space Force Base. In the Lounge Car, the bartender gets on the PA and points out the various rockets you can see on their launch pads as you traverse Vandenberg. It stops in Ventura, Santa Barbara, etc. and then finally heads inland just south of San Luis Obispo up to San Jose.

On the Coast Starlight timetable, you generally are having lunch in the dining car as you roll along the ocean through Santa Barbara on the northbound trip, and on the southbound trip from Seattle you are having your last dinner in the dining car as the sun sets into the ocean along this stretch. It's one of the prettiest routes in America!

Obviously the route would need upgrading, and may have to diverge from the old Southern Pacific tracks in places. But the concept is solid and would make the LA to SF journey far more efficient and thus profitable.

It’s crazy when you look at a map how there’s 2 OBVIOUS paths the CAHSR could have easily gone, along the 101 or along the 5, but they chose to run it through 200 miles of built up cities and towns that probably increased the price and complexity 1000%.

Had they just built it along the obvious roads, like Brightline is doing, it would probably be open already.

Exactly. Our tax dollars at work.

 

[DarkMetroid567]

The wish that if different / private leadership had taken control of CAHSR it would exist is just that — wishcasting. Whether the route proposed by SNCF was better or whether the train should have just gone down the 5 wouldn’t have fixed most of the issues plaguing CAHSR today. The Central Valley route is a good route. But it is astoundingly difficult to build any infrastructure (including highways) in the US and that’s become very clear now with Brightline West’s “any day now!” groundbreaking.

I would love Brightline West to happen. But even with the amount of support they’ve gotten in the last five years they’re no closer to building it than when they had Reid’s support for DesertXpress. And even the current Brightline operations are not exactly making bank, and they only had to build a little spurt of track on the flattest land in the country.

But if you live in Los Angeles, your sidewalks often look like this now. It's not safe to walk, and there is no sidewalk left anyway. Pedestrians are now forced to walk in the gutter and/or street.

I just walked down that sidewalk in the second photo on Saturday! It’s looking a lot better, just saw a single tent. DTLA in general looked significantly better than it did my last visit — still not my favorite place by any means, though.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

I would love Brightline West to happen. But even with the amount of support they’ve gotten in the last five years they’re no closer to building it than when they had Reid’s support for DesertXpress.

Totally disagree, the environmental studies were completed in 2023, the soil studies are more or less done, the financing is essentially done (something CAHSR can’t say), the right of way is acquired (something CAHSR can’t say)… they are in the end stages of the bureaucratic red tape to actually begin construction, which is unfortunately 50% of building anything in America. None of the other proposals ever got beyond the talking stage, Brightline has actually finished all the tedious pre-construction bureaucracy and has finally reached the shovels in the ground stage.

They’ve been doing realignment work along the 15 in Vegas for a year already, they started foundation work at the Vegas station location a couple months ago, they’ve been doing 200 miles of core samples along the 15 for a couple years already… that’s no guarantee it will actually reach completion but I’d say Brightline is 99% more likely to be completed than any other high speed (or near high speed) rail project anywhere in America right now.

I hope it actually reaches completion, I think it’s the perfect project to expose the benefits of HSR to Americans, I think the same of an extension of Brightline east to Uni/WDW, most Americans have never experienced a real HSR and until they do I don’t think HSR will ever see general support in America.