Long term effects of WDC decision making, failure to innovate, and price gouging has caught up with WDW

[Andrew25]

Sorry, but MK is expanding, not replacing. That’s a fact no matter what world you may be living in. To claim that the riverboat (which nobody ever rode) is a subtraction simply strains all credulity.

I will echo your statement and support that the MK is adding attraction capacity and guest-accessible areas.

The riverboat is a reduction in capacity, but that will certainly be eclipsed by the popularity of the Cars attraction... as much as I hate saying that.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I will echo your statement and support that the MK is adding attraction capacity and guest-accessible areas.

The riverboat is a reduction in capacity, but that will certainly be eclipsed by the popularity of the Cars attraction... as much as I hate saying that.

Popularity is not adding. It’s a silly claim to make. If they do all this ballyhooed “behind” stuff that had been kicked around in the ether…then the claim is valid. Not until then

 

[John park hopper]

It remains to be seen how popular the cars attraction will be in the long term

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

It remains to be seen how popular the cars attraction will be in the long term

That property has proven to be pretty resilient/safe…so that is a pretty solid decision

Except it should have replaced the speedway between Tomorrowland and fantasyland…

But sometimes these things are just too hard for the brain to comprehend

 

[Andrew25]

Popularity is not adding. It’s a silly claim to make. If they do all this ballyhooed “behind” stuff that had been kicked around in the ether…then the claim is valid. Not until then

Take Cosmic Rewind as an example, there's far more people experiencing it in a day than Energy adventure did. An in-demand attraction will always improve capacity at the park.

Assume that the Cars Road Rally (excluding the 2nd attraction for now) has an hourly capacity of 1,440 guests an hour. Operating at 85% efficiency, for 14 hours, we can see about 17K guests experience it in day. Whereas the Liberty Bell & Tom Sawyer we're bare operating at 50% efficiency due to lower demand, putting it at roughly 6.9K guests an hour.

I'm not saying that lower attended attractions don't add to a park's experience, but the Cars and Villains projects will definitely alleviate MK a bit.


Let it be known, I don't like the removal of Tom Sawyer/Liberty Belle and think it's a poor decision since both can coexist with new expansions.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Sorry, but MK is expanding, not replacing. That’s a fact no matter what world you may be living in. To claim that the riverboat (which nobody ever rode) is a subtraction simply strains all credulity.

As it stands…they are replacing…with “assumed” plans to then expand. As of 7/7/25. The basis of the assumption is a concept drawing and a “in the years to come” timeline…

we know what happens when we “assume”, don’t we?

But my word…didn’t it take them 3 years to move the railroad 10 feet for Tron? Actually going past it could take the better part of a century

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Take Cosmic Rewind as an example, there's far more people experiencing it in a day than Energy adventure did. An in-demand attraction will always improve capacity at the park.

Assume that the Cars Road Rally (excluding the 2nd attraction for now) has an hourly capacity of 1,440 guests an hour. Operating at 85% efficiency, for 14 hours, we can see about 17K guests experience it in day. Whereas the Liberty Bell & Tom Sawyer we're bare operating at 50% efficiency due to lower demand, putting it at roughly 6.9K guests an hour.

I'm not saying that lower attended attractions don't add to a park's experience, but the Cars and Villains projects will definitely alleviate MK a bit.


Let it be known, I don't like the removal of Tom Sawyer/Liberty Belle and think it's a poor decision since both can coexist with new expansions.

If they put those rides behind a $35 paywall…it’s not actually going to alleviate much in the way of the standard rides and queues…perhaps a few minutes over the course of the day

But two new rides over 1 replacement would actually provide an outlet to diffuse people.

Those parks were designed to distribute the crowds…every part of them. The street performers and little period shows did that…the gift shop dumps do that…the (now empty) sit down restaurants (which were unheard of prior but often replicated since) did that…those delays/dawdling spaces alleviate the strain on the rides. By design.

Now back to the subject of the thread: do they have problems? Yeah…and they are plentiful…and they are self inflicted.

 

[Goofyernmost]

There’s a direct correlation between the all in cost rising and the stagnation setting in these last five years

Hell…you can blame all the outside factors like education, real estate and grocery costs going up by 25-50% in a matter of years…and therefore Orlando is out…

Did Disney cause that? No. But the net result is the same: their prices are too high in the market they operate. Doesn’t matter if they made it that way…the market is dynamic and their only job is to course correct.

Increasing prices, shaving corners, rolling out new fees and limiting projects to bout one every 8 years per park if you’re lucky is not exactly prize winning business strategy. It’s cutting the air off your golden goose to temporarily prop it up.

I do not mean to imply that it isn't playing a roll in it, but that is a gradual thing over many years. Yes, I know it has been happening over many years, but the end result has happened to quickly to just be that being the leader. A couple months ago the crowd were overwhelming and now the 4th of July finds it quiet like it once was in February. I can also accept that the weather has had a bigger influence on that happening (heat) than any long range event.

Your statement is (bolded) exactly what I am referring to when I say outside causes are primary and that an over time diminished experience caused by Disney themselves is not the direct reason. As everything else started happening that company mission no longer could stand up to outside world pressure and there you have the reasons, all involved but not equally. I believe that even if Disney cut pricing in half, right now, the attendance would still be much lower. Fear of the future is a much bigger influence than quality to the human psyche! Just about anyone that spends money on expensive vacations, still have money coming in, but uncertainty will change the thinking of how and when to spend it. Those that couldn't afford Disney before, still can't and those that do are being careful about how much non-essential spending they do.

Those of us that have been going for years see and understand the decline in quality and lower "bang for the buck" that Disney now offers. New visitors don't have a clue about the past and therefore are not influenced in that way. That is why Disney has managed to continue to grow in spite of lowered standards. Old audiences die off and new ones take over. They are not motivated like we were earlier and find the program lacking. What was does not influence those that never saw it before but do see enough quality to be the new audience now are influenced by other thing happening around them not by some fantasy kingdom.

Another influence is that during Disney's growth the largest generation (boomers) where the driving force that supported and were active in the concept that Disney presented. Their children also had an interest but not to the extent that their parents had. Subsequently, their children's children had even less. There are other things to do to entertain themselves with electronics being a huge one. Case in point, I was an avid fan for almost 40 years, a total of 50 visits to Disney parks in the USA and Europe. The most my children did on their own was 4 and one of those when they went with me in the past 20 years. And that one time, I paid for everything. Three of my grandchildren, now in their early to mid 20's, have gone twice and one 16 year old that has never been. I'm positive that if she were to go now she would be gobsmacked like we were and she would enjoy it and be amazed but within a few days she would just pick up her iPad and decide that as far more fun with a lot less walking.

The recent past history of park attendance signifies that what we perceive as lower quality has had no real influence on park attendance. That, like Disney figured, doesn't matter over time. Cost does and what the public focuses on is the only influence but when fear or need enters only fear influences a non-essential expense like WDW.

 

[John park hopper]

Goofer you are right on my grandkids have been once and express no desire to return. They are older now and vacation in other places. My son's family just got back from Hawaii.

 

[mysto]

Sacrebleu! I think the state and direction of the parks is being driven by the state of the outside world more than management. Management is just "doing what we are supposed to do" and being paid well for it. Sure they are uninspired, but that is just another aspect of the current state of the world.

Central bank emission causes rising prices, not <insert excuse here>. It is fully intentional and always has been. Some will benefit and many won't, that is the intent.

The dominance of behemoth corporations makes competition increasingly unlikely. If they build it we will come and pay because there is nothing else. We look at Universal as competition, but it isn't enough as a few here sometimes point out.

In the context of a rapidly rising population there are fewer places in the sun for those looking for one. Throwing the bums out will have little effect, sorry.

 

[KDM31091]

MK is replacing, not adding, in terms of pure attraction count since we are losing TSI and Riverboat and gaining the main Cars attraction and one other, so yes, subtract 2 and add 2. It is a wash in that sense. Now, will the new attractions draw more guests? Of course. But one or both will be behind a $35 paywall as mentioned, unless you want to stand in the sun for 2 hours waiting. Current management is obsessed with monetizing every inch of the park and realistically I see very few if any non LL attractions coming any time soon. Possibly the carousel at AK but even that is not a given since things like the Mad Tea Party have LL for no reason.

AK is also not "expanding" since we lost Primeval, Triceratops, Boneyard, the games, and Dinosaur, and gained Encanto, Indy, and a Carousel. Even if you believe them when they say the new land will have a playground it's still essentially a wash, and beyond the initial hype I don't see Indy attracting a ton more people than Dinosaur did as it is still the same ride so those who did not like it due to the motion or such will still not like it.

Won't even get into the horrid decisions made at Epcot, namely the central gardens that are a downgrade which is almost unanimously agreed on.

DHS at least finally reopened Mermaid and added the Villains show, as that park desperately needed and still needs some filler attractions.

Disney left areas like TSI and Dinoland to rot and then gets rid of them saying they are under utilized when they could have just improved them. Then they tell us we are getting "expansions" when in fact it's just repurposing existing space, even with the "blessing of size" meaning they really don't have to always remove something to add something, especially in a park like DAK with a paltry attraction count to begin with.

The destruction of the Rivers proves to me that current management sees most if not all quiet, non LL sale generating attractions as a waste of space. I fully anticipate in the future we will lose things like the Railroad, the Tiki Room, Carousel of Progress, even the Peoplemover (though its space couldn't really be used for anything else anyway). These attractions aren't IP and don't generate LL sales so they are guaranteed on the chopping block IMO at some point unless there is a drastic change in management.

Now, attendance in the summer is a hard metric to judge by as summer is the new "slow" season in WDW, replacing what used to be in Jan/Feb. I would imagine people are more willing to pull kids out of school for a week these days vs suffer in the oppressive heat of summer.

 

[JusticeDisney]

MK is replacing, not adding, in terms of pure attraction count since we are losing TSI and Riverboat and gaining the main Cars attraction and one other, so yes, subtract 2 and add 2. It is a wash in that sense. Now, will the new attractions draw more guests? Of course. But one or both will be behind a $35 paywall as mentioned, unless you want to stand in the sun for 2 hours waiting. Current management is obsessed with monetizing every inch of the park and realistically I see very few if any non LL attractions coming any time soon. Possibly the carousel at AK but even that is not a given since things like the Mad Tea Party have LL for no reason.

AK is also not "expanding" since we lost Primeval, Triceratops, Boneyard, the games, and Dinosaur, and gained Encanto, Indy, and a Carousel. Even if you believe them when they say the new land will have a playground it's still essentially a wash, and beyond the initial hype I don't see Indy attracting a ton more people than Dinosaur did as it is still the same ride so those who did not like it due to the motion or such will still not like it.

Won't even get into the horrid decisions made at Epcot, namely the central gardens that are a downgrade which is almost unanimously agreed on.

DHS at least finally reopened Mermaid and added the Villains show, as that park desperately needed and still needs some filler attractions.

Disney left areas like TSI and Dinoland to rot and then gets rid of them saying they are under utilized when they could have just improved them. Then they tell us we are getting "expansions" when in fact it's just repurposing existing space, even with the "blessing of size" meaning they really don't have to always remove something to add something, especially in a park like DAK with a paltry attraction count to begin with.

The destruction of the Rivers proves to me that current management sees most if not all quiet, non LL sale generating attractions as a waste of space. I fully anticipate in the future we will lose things like the Railroad, the Tiki Room, Carousel of Progress, even the Peoplemover (though its space couldn't really be used for anything else anyway). These attractions aren't IP and don't generate LL sales so they are guaranteed on the chopping block IMO at some point unless there is a drastic change in management.

Now, attendance in the summer is a hard metric to judge by as summer is the new "slow" season in WDW, replacing what used to be in Jan/Feb. I would imagine people are more willing to pull kids out of school for a week these days vs suffer in the oppressive heat of summer.

You are incorrect about MK. It is 100% an expansion, even if you count the Riverboat and TSI as attractions (which essentially nobody does). Piston Peak and Villains land add more than is being removed.

In any event, who cares if it is called expansion or replacement? All that matters to most is whether the park is being improved, and in this instance that is most certainly the case.

 

[iamgroot61]

Well, everybody's got an opinion, including me. I have watched the "evolution" of the US Disney parks with mixed feelings.

I'm fortunate enough to have been able to visit the CA parks for many years and seen the development and growth/change of DCA as well as many of the updates/enhancements of attractions at DL. Now living in FL, I'm about to witness probably the single largest "expansion" at WDW since it was first built apart from the opening of new gates.

I don't disagree with those who lament the price increases. I'm in the camp of people with limited resources. I'm a passholder, but of the lowest tier. I watched APs for DL/DCA skyrocket, peaking out at around $2200PP for their top-tier pass (back then it was the Premiere Pass). I think with the revision of the APs those prices actually came down a bit but I haven't looked at them, to be honest.

I have no problem with Disney trying to capitalize on the popularity of its IPs (and let's face it, when you get right down to it, it's ALL IPs), but I disagree with removing the most iconic attraction in MK to replace it with a newer IP, especially when you own space equivalent in size to San Francisco and could easily park a Cars attraction elsewhere (IMHO, it belongs in HS where Pixar has a large presence already).

On the flip side, I love some of the other changes coming. I think re-theming the Dinosaur area is going to be a big win. This may be my DL heartstrings tugging at me, but the Indiana Jones Adventure, Temple of the Forbidden Eye is FAR superior to the Dinosaur ride and I welcome the change. Adding Encanto to AK is also good.

I think another misstep was the re-theming of Splash Mtn. Don't get me wrong, I loved Princess and the Frog, and the idea itself wasn't bad, but I think they botched the job and should have just followed the film more closely. They totally missed the boat (so to speak) with the ride climax. They should have incorporated Dr. Facilier into the buildup leading to the splashdown. Completely wasted opportunity.

I think Disney is generally good at managing their cash cows and we will always see things we like, dislike, love, hate, or are indifferent to. It's been a few years since I visited any Universal park, but I think Disney still sits atop the heap in all aspects. One thing I have always appreciated is the cleanliness of the parks and the magic CMs bring to the experience. I do hope I don't get completely priced out of it.

 

[KDM31091]

You are incorrect about MK. It is 100% an expansion, even if you count the Riverboat and TSI as attractions (which essentially nobody does). Piston Peak and Villains land add more than is being removed.

In any event, who cares if it is called expansion or replacement? All that matters to most is whether the park is being improved, and in this instance that is most certainly the case.

Well, Disney certainly counts them, since they were both listed on the maps as attractions, so it is a lose 2, gain 2 situation. I don't discredit that the Cars things will be more popular and draw more guests so capacity wise yes it's an expansion. But in raw numbers, no it is not. Until the villains land opens in 10 years anyway lol

 

[JusticeDisney]

Well, Disney certainly counts them, since they were both listed on the maps as attractions, so it is a lose 2, gain 2 situation. I don't discredit that the Cars things will be more popular and draw more guests so capacity wise yes it's an expansion. But in raw numbers, no it is not. Until the villains land opens in 10 years anyway lol

Fair point about how slow Disney moves with these types of things, lol! But at the end of the day, there are going to be two new lands with more new attractions than those being replaced. Anyway, your overall point is well taken.

 

[MaryJaneP]

(and let's face it, when you get right down to it, it's ALL IPs)

And here we thought Pirates and Haunted Mansion, for example, existed PRIOR to any movies based on those attractions.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I'm convinced that the only reason Cars is going in MK is because they wanted to end the expense of the Riverboat and those rafts and they could only do that with the least backlash is to decide to close TSI leaving that location empty and needing to connect the place behind BTMR. So they get away with losing a huge expense that isn't much of a pull anymore and an Island that isn't really pulling anything at all. At least once they had a food service there. TSI will not be terribly missed so to me that is just a distraction for kids not really an liget attraction, but Cars will be a huge draw for both adults and children and might help balance off MK a little, Villians will just increase that, but to get rid of the Riverboat, it had to go down like the rest of the ships. but hopefully not completely eliminate the scenic presence of RoA in that location running up at least to BTMR, on one side and HoP on the other. That would provide entry from two different directions.

That means that they can close TSI with little to no pushback and then wave the carrot of Cars and Villians to ease pushback for the Riverboat. Without TSI the Riverboat is not really connected to any theme anymore like TSI did and the land used by Car's/Villians will be available to soak up way more people than TSI or the Riverboat were presently drawing combined.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I'm convinced that the only reason Cars is going in MK is because they wanted to end the expense of the Riverboat and those rafts and they could only do that with the least backlash is to decide to close TSI leaving that location empty and needing to connect the place behind BTMR. So they get away with losing a huge expense that isn't much of a pull anymore and an Island that isn't really pulling anything at all. At least once they had a food service there. TSI will not be terribly missed so to me that is just a distraction for kids not really an liget attraction, but Cars will be a huge draw for both adults and children and might help balance off MK a little, Villians will just increase that, but to get rid of the Riverboat, it had to go down with the rest of the ships. but hopefully not completely eliminate the scenic presence of RoA in that location running up at least to BTMR, on one side and HoP on the other.

That means that they can close TSI with little to no pushback and then wave the carrot of Cars and Villians to ease pushback for the Riverboat. Without TSI the Riverboat is not really in any theme anymore and the land used by Car's/Villians will be available to soak up way more people than TSI or the Riverboat is presently drawing combined.

I can see a few angles

Eliminating expense on older stuff is a
Notorious tactic they do today

Just did it with splash…doing it with CTX…did it in studios several times…notably the movie ride…

Not a foreign concept

Cars is a popular merch franchise…that’s a big part of this

It also should not go unnoticed that it serves as a “boy centric” counter facing the splash overlay…

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

A less crowded WDW isn't the end of the world.

For years they've used every trick in the book to bump attendance, and that impacts desire and value when it comes to vacationing.

I imagine a lot of people would have no problem with paying more for a better experience.

 

[Jrb1979]

A less crowded WDW isn't the end of the world.

For years they've used every trick in the book to bump attendance, and that impacts desire and value when it comes to vacationing.

I imagine a lot of people would have no problem with paying more for a better experience.

As a guest, a lower attendance is great. Unfortunately parks aren't built for thar. The profit margins on food and merch isn't high. They are built for high volume to make high profits.

The only solution is more attractions and to get people to visit the other parks over ML more.