Long term effects of WDC decision making, failure to innovate, and price gouging has caught up with WDW

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I’m feeling “civil” today…so let’s play:

There are three major expansions. That’s a fact. That one is further along than the others does not negate that. And once these expansions are complete, WDW will have added roughly the same number of major attractions as all of Epic. Another fact.

in your favor here…blowhard Bob has “hinted” that they’re gonna do a lot. What’s been announced is not…but it could increase.

As far as “major expansions”…that is incorrect. Expansion by definition is additional. That is not what’s going on. More on that below..

Look, I agree that Disney has made some really poor decisions over the years, but your claim that, because of those decisions, they are now suffering in some way that other parks are not is incorrect.

I’d agree with you…if they had ever suffered attendance declines or failures to increase during non-recessions prior. But it hasn’t happened UNTIL 2023-present. Nope. Not once. Less traffic to the Orlando parks (not just Disneys) when the public is spending is a bigger problem for those parks. As Disney has admitted by offering some really…really…pathetic excuses publicly.

As to your point that there are subtractions to go along with additions, you are absolutely correct about that at AK and HS. However, the additions far exceed the subtractions in terms of magnitude.

Not quite the same thing. If you’re saying the new will be more popular than the old…absolutely. But What is that for?
Upsells. Easy answer. More lightning lanes that’s aren’t even needed with the crowd levels as they sit.
The alternate is actually customer friendly: they could have put the monster Inc ride in the cast lot behind muppets. And they could have put the cars ride beyond the berm in the magic kingdom. So you get the new on the old…which is actual addition. The overlays and replacements is a Bob tactic. It doesn’t allow a more inviting environment. Just a more expensive one. “Value engineering”

 

[Goofyernmost]

It’s both…

There is economic/political uncertainty that is undoubtedly affects travel patterns…but there is no way to discount bad business decisions is having

The usual “no fault” excuse for Disney is “we’ve been hearing about this for years…and nothing happens”

Well now it is…and that’s a bad sign in of itself. The name on the door masks mistakes for a long time due to reputation and clout. So their mistakes dont show up next week or year…they have 5,10+ plus of good will that will shield it.

In the past that gives them time for course correction…this is the first time they have doubled down on bad ideas. 12 years at least. Now the crops aren’t growing

I agree, but not to an equal extent. Obsessed fans with money or credit card space to burn have been complaining about Disney's lack of awareness that they had to keep up and not just replace, but improve present attractions. It never showed up as an empty MK on July 4th before. Along with financial worries, the real threat of international as well as national terrorism is back on top of the table and that is going to have a bigger influence on someone going there than just that an attraction is old. At this point going there to remanence is the biggest driving influence in motivating the old timers and the current newbee's have the pleasure of having 4 theme parks that they have never seen so additions will mean nothing to them at all. It's all new and impressive to them. So I maintain that the world situation is the biggest, most concerning problem for all the theme parks in the country.

 

[Lilofan]

Universal is not bursting at the seams. Crowd levels are down as well. (IOA is only showing a minor boost in wait-times due to Hagrid offering Express now).

Epic Universe just opened, and they still have lots of hotel room availability and have just started offering decent FL resident deals.

Every price hike WDW has done, Universal has followed.... they just don't get the same level of attention since their fandom is a fraction of the size of Disney. I've been warning about Universal also reaching a price ceiling similarly to WDW.

Disney has always got the bullseye on their back for critics to hone in like vultures to do what they do. When it comes to layoffs Disney has more exposure by mainstream media and unions. Unions will fight tooth and nail to protect their dues paying cast. When it comes to layoffs in Universal, the crews can just get laid off , hours cut to the bone without any unions to help them in their situations and not much as newsworthy like when Disney goes through something similar.

 

[JusticeDisney]

I’m feeling “civil” today…so let’s play:
in your favor here…blowhard Bob has “hinted” that they’re gonna do a lot. What’s been announced is not…but it could increase.

As far as “major expansions”…that is incorrect. Expansion by definition is additional. That is not what’s going on. More on that below..


I’d agree with you…if they had ever suffered attendance declines or failures to increase during non-recessions prior. But it hasn’t happened UNTIL 2023-present. Nope. Not once. Less traffic to the Orlando parks (not just Disneys) when the public is spending is a bigger problem for those parks. As Disney has admitted by offering some really…really…pathetic excuses publicly.


Not quite the same thing. If you’re saying the new will be more popular than the old…absolutely. But What is that for?
Upsells. Easy answer. More lightning lanes that’s aren’t even needed with the crowd levels as they sit.
The alternate is actually customer friendly: they could have put the monster Inc ride in the cast lot behind muppets. And they could have put the cars ride beyond the berm in the magic kingdom. So you get the new on the old…which is actual addition. The overlays and replacements is a Bob tactic. It doesn’t allow a more inviting environment. Just a more expensive one. “Value engineering”

You make great points, and I don’t disagree with what you are saying. I guess my main point was just that Walt Disney World is not suffering in any way that other parks are not also suffering, so to blame that totally on missteps that Walt Disney World has made, as some on here are attempting to do, is incorrect.

 

[John park hopper]

There are three major expansions. That’s a fact. That one is further along than the others does not negate that. And once these expansions are complete, WDW will have added roughly the same number of major attractions as all of Epic. Another fact.

Look, I agree that Disney has made some really poor decisions over the years, but your claim that, because of those decisions, they are now suffering in some way that other parks are not is incorrect.

As to your point that there are subtractions to go along with additions, you are absolutely correct about that at AK and HS. However, the additions far exceed the subtractions in terms of magnitude.

You are confusing expansion (getting larger) with remove and replace which is what Disney has been doing for years

 

[Disstevefan1]

Most of these attractions you mention replace existing attractions and/or do not expand the physical park footprint in any meaningful way.

EU has 19 new attractions and shows. None of these replaced any rides or attractions, unless you count Lockheed Martin’s on-site simulators (if they had any).

I totally agree with you.

But we must remember, there is math and there is "Disney math", just look at their highly successful streaming business and movie business.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I agree, but not to an equal extent. Obsessed fans with money or credit card space to burn have been complaining about Disney's lack of awareness that they had to keep up and not just replace, but improve present attractions. It never showed up as an empty MK on July 4th before. Along with financial worries, the real threat of international as well as national terrorism is back on top of the table and that is going to have a bigger influence on someone going there than just that an attraction is old. At this point going there to remanence is the biggest driving influence in motivating the old timers and the current newbee's have the pleasure of having 4 theme parks that they have never seen so additions will mean nothing to them at all. It's all new and impressive to them. So I maintain that the world situation is the biggest, most concerning problem for all the theme parks in the country.

There’s a direct correlation between the all in cost rising and the stagnation setting in these last five years

Hell…you can blame all the outside factors like education, real estate and grocery costs going up by 25-50% in a matter of years…and therefore Orlando is out…

Did Disney cause that? No. But the net result is the same: their prices are too high in the market they operate. Doesn’t matter if they made it that way…the market is dynamic and their only job is to course correct.

Increasing prices, shaving corners, rolling out new fees and limiting projects to bout one every 8 years per park if you’re lucky is not exactly prize winning business strategy. It’s cutting the air off your golden goose to temporarily prop it up.

 

[JusticeDisney]

You are confusing expansion (getting larger) with remove and replace which is what Disney has been doing for years

Actually, I am not doing that at all. What is happening in MK is a true expansion by any definition. What is happening at AK and HS involves both subtractions and additions, which I have clearly acknowledged multiple times in this thread. Where it gets a bit nuanced in my estimation, is when for example you replace a garbage Dinoland ride with a major Encanto attraction. While technically, that is a one for one deal, I view it as a major upgrade. Same thing goes for replacing an outdated 3D movie with a suspended coaster. Thus, while those things don’t necessarily make the parks “bigger,” they do make them better, at least IMHO, and that’s the larger point I was attempting to make.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

You are confusing expansion (getting larger) with remove and replace which is what Disney has been doing for years

Indeed…
“Improvement” is not the same as “expansion”

There are a finite amount of seats to put the butts in…

On a day like today when it’s dead and the capacity that was built by Eisner, Inc for the 44 mil they got in 2000 to maybe high 40’s with flex is fine. And since they have done minimal such actual additions since…I’ll give Bob maybe to the lower 50s as manageable now.

But it’s guesstimated that they got 58-59 in 2018 and 19. That’s overrun and it completely sucked. There is really no one on any of these boards…either “pro” or “anti” who doesn’t say it sucked.

If they manage to get back there (the fact they haven’t come close is a problem nobody ever explained…) then it’s a mess again.

More lighting lane fees won’t and cannot fix that…it will just pi$$ everyone off more and drive them backwards again

 

[JusticeDisney]

Indeed…
“Improvement” is not the same as “expansion”

There are a finite amount of seats to put the butts in…

On a day like today when it’s dead and the capacity that was built by Eisner, Inc for the 44 mil they got in 2000 to maybe high 40’s with flex is fine. And since they have done minimal such actual additions since…I’ll give Bob maybe to the lower 50s as manageable now.

But it’s guesstimated that they got 58-59 in 2018 and 19. That’s overrun and it completely sucked. There is really no one on any of these boards…either “pro” or “anti” who doesn’t say it sucked.

If they manage to get back there (the fact they haven’t come close is a problem nobody ever explained…) then it’s a mess again.

More lighting lane fees won’t and cannot fix that…it will just pi$$ everyone off more and drive them backwards again

Had no idea you were such a masterful cherry picker.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Had no idea you were such a masterful cherry picker.

Now now…we were having a nice exchange here…don’t get “heightened”

Quoting historical statistics and trends is a reasonable way to make a case…since like…papyrus or something?

That doesn’t mean you or anyone has to agree with the conclusions I make…but it’s not cherry picking…and I do love me some
Cherries

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Universal is not bursting at the seams. Crowd levels are down as well. (IOA is only showing a minor boost in wait-times due to Hagrid offering Express now).

Epic Universe just opened, and they still have lots of hotel room availability and have just started offering decent FL resident deals.

Every price hike WDW has done, Universal has followed.... they just don't get the same level of attention since their fandom is a fraction of the size of Disney. I've been warning about Universal also reaching a price ceiling similarly to WDW.

And that’s actually the most compelling case to be made the price is the whole problem

Both are at the same spot…and neither is jumping at all.

Anyone paid attention to the “mobs” descending on Epic Universe? There’s just one little problem…

 

[JusticeDisney]

Now now…we were having a nice exchange here…don’t get “heightened”

Quoting historical statistics and trends is a reasonable way to make a case…since like…papyrus or something?

That doesn’t mean you or anyone has to agree with the conclusions I make…but it’s not cherry picking…and I do love me some
Cherries

I’m just busting your chops! And what I was jokingly referring to was where you said “improvement is not the same as expansion,” which of course is correct. That statement, however, glosses over the fact that what is happening at MK is a true expansion. Anyway, it’s very refreshing to play nice with you!

 

[John park hopper]

There’s a direct correlation between the all in cost rising and the stagnation setting in these last five years

Hell…you can blame all the outside factors like education, real estate and grocery costs going up by 25-50% in a matter of years…and therefore Orlando is out…

Did Disney cause that? No. But the net result is the same: their prices are too high in the market they operate. Doesn’t matter if they made it that way…the market is dynamic and their only job is to course correct.

Increasing prices, shaving corners, rolling out new fees and limiting projects to bout one every 8 years per park if you’re lucky is not exactly prize winning business strategy. It’s cutting the air off your golden goose to temporarily prop it up.

Grocery stores don't make a ton of money off of food where they make their money is in the number of shoppers. High volume moderate prices = profit. If Disney is suffering from low volume decrease prices and volume (guests) will increase thus profits will increase. Disney would rather gouge those who come and complain attendance is down

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

What do you think will fix our beloved company and Theme Park?

I think the theme parks are going to take years, maybe even decades, to fully recover from today’s bad leadership, it goes back to the old business adage that it’s 7x cheaper to retain a customer than to attract a new one, Disney had a die hard fan base that they’ve been driving away, due to bad decisions, for a decade now. It’s not going to be as easy as just slapping up a couple new rides, they need to rebuild their reputation, and that takes time.

Personally I think back to how my girlfriend and I missed the parks so much during Covid we’d talk about old trips, speculate about when they’d reopen, talk about what we’d do when they finally reopened, and literally dreamt of the day we could go back, now we simply don’t care, we haven’t been since Feb and care so little we haven’t even talked about the parks in a few months, we’re too busy planning our Yellowstone trip, planning our Alaska trip, planning our DCL cruise, planning our Viking River cruise… the parks have more or less lost us through their bad policies, we’ve moved on, outside of occasionally posting here Disney has become a wonderful nostalgia we look back on rather than a place we look forward to.

We’ve seen the same thing happen with Disney, Pixar, Star Wars, and Marvel movies… once you lose your customers trust it’s a huge uphill battle to regain it, and if people don’t trust your product they tend not to pay for it.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Grocery stores don't make a ton of money off of food where they make their money is in the number of shoppers. High volume moderate prices = profit. If Disney is suffering from low volume decrease prices and volume (guests) will increase thus profits will increase. Disney would rather gouge those who come and complain attendance is down

Because the idiocy of the blue ocean strategy Bob apparently read on his yacht sailing counterclockwise with the kiwis…

A redonkulous batpoop theory that doesn’t work in a common sense scenario

Fine…trickle down it all you want…but the problem is the corporate climate of hubris that they have adopted as well.

“…trust us…we know what we’re doing”

If you have pretty obvious/embarrassing mistakes…you can’t back your attitude up. The instances of this are on the rise.

 

[Lilofan]

Grocery stores don't make a ton of money off of food where they make their money is in the number of shoppers. High volume moderate prices = profit. If Disney is suffering from low volume decrease prices and volume (guests) will increase thus profits will increase. Disney would rather gouge those who come and complain attendance is down

Grocery stores got smarter. The shopping carts today are enormous compared to back in the day. Guest mentality is the bigger the shopping cart the more stuff we can buy to fill it to the top.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I’m just busting your chops! And what I was jokingly referring to was where you said “improvement is not the same as expansion,” which of course is correct. That statement, however, glosses over the fact that what is happening at MK is a true expansion. Anyway, it’s very refreshing to play nice with you!

Currently…there is no expansion at magic kingdom…

There is a replacement of fairly unpopular areas in a 2 for 1…as it stands.

Now that could change…but anyone who hasn’t learned my TOTS credo from a former life needs to be aware.

Shovels are moving on 1 change there as it stands

 

[JusticeDisney]

Currently…there is no expansion at magic kingdom…

There is a replacement of fairly unpopular areas in a 2 for 1…as it stands.

Now that could change…but anyone who hasn’t learned my TOTS credo from a former life needs to be aware.

Shovels are moving on 1 change there as it stands

Sorry, but MK is expanding, not replacing. That’s a fact no matter what world you may be living in. To claim that the riverboat (which nobody ever rode) is a subtraction simply strains all credulity.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

And by the way, let’s not forget that the combined ongoing expansions of MK, AK and HS result in essentially the equivalent of all of Epic in terms of the number of major new attractions.

No no no…that’s such a Hail Mary prediction

You’re absolutely delusional. Most of these attractions you mention replace existing attractions and/or do not expand the physical park footprint in any meaningful way.

EU has 19 new attractions and shows. None of these replaced any rides or attractions, unless you count Lockheed Martin’s on-site simulators (if they had any). Your math ain’t mathing, dude.

The way TWDC operates…it would 20 years at a minimum to add 19 new attractions: because reskins are not adds…again

There hasn’t been a new domestic park since California adventure…that’s 24 years…26 since IOA…27 since DAK. That’s it…that’s the entire list for the whole country.

So there’s no way to make the claim you are “equaling” a new park. Just stop that one in its tracks.

We scream for more investment in the parks and that’s the announced plan. Perfect.

But it cannot equal a new park. They have added a ground total of ADDED rides since 2000 - net total - of NINE In four parks. All other actions have been cancelled out by replacements. And I may…just maybe…be generous in that assessment?

It will take to the apocalypse to get to 19 at that pace.

This is where I get scoffed and say: “you just have a thing against Iger (and his real persona: the entire essence and history of the Walt Disney company…his thoughts, not ours )”

Yes I do have something against him…the track record. And that is very much analytical. It’s not a matter of opinion.

Actually I’m way over on the adds…forgot about wonders of life. That’s -3