WDW during a Recession / Economic Downturn

[Club Cooloholic]

I don't have an issue with your math, but your analysis may be missing the forest for the trees.

WDW was not designed as a place where people pound rides from open until close. You're probably a long time visitor like me and have noticed the difference in the total experience between then and now. People were able to spend time at the resorts, water parks, theme parks, shopping venues and restaurants without feeling like they were wasting time and money.

I don't want to get into a chicken or the egg argument but a combination of poor management on Disney's part and a much faster-paced society has led to a worsening of the experience at WDW. If people are paying for rides, then rides have more value than walking through the Maharajah Jungle Trek or taking a boat ride from DS to POFQ to watch the entertainment. Ride capacity now becomes a serious problem when it never used to be that way and restaurants and other non-ride experiences are valued less and visited less often.

In the short term, Disney would rather have the money from selling LLs than the profit from TS restaurants. But people are not having the same type of experience they had back when they could take the time to enjoy the parks.

In my opinion, WDW is circling the drain and I don't know what if anything is going to stop that process. My family still enjoys the parks because we are fortunate enough to be able to absorb the type of uncharges that make that possible without feeling bad about it. From what I'm hearing and reading, though, we are likely in a small minority.

It's why Disney needs to invest in more street entertainment, and non paid experiences to create "lands" you want to walk around vs rides rides rides. Uni learned that with Potter. Getting rid of the rivers of America seems to me to be the opposite of what they are doing(unless they can make that into more than just rides rides rides..

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

It's why Disney needs to invest in more street entertainment, and non paid experiences to create "lands" you want to walk around vs rides rides rides. Uni learned that with Potter. Getting rid of the rivers of America seems to me to be the opposite of what they are doing(unless they can make that into more than just rides rides rides..

Their entire “strategy” is predicated on churning out more revenue per person each day to maintain a posted quarterly bump.

My slightly educated guess is they know that their customer pool is shrinking and that’s the only way they can stay ahead of the curve

The problem with what you’re proposing…and it is a key to crowd distribution and satisfaction…is it doesn’t support the upsell strategies. And they can’t move away from that now. Things without lines don’t serve them at all.

Maybe a sheik will float them some cash to bring the acts back to studios? We can dream, right?

 

[Kamikaze]

There was in fact a “real recession” in the 90’s…but I guess that was long ago that it’s the stuff of myth?

The 'Gulf War' recession? It wasn't even a year long officially. Hardly something you can use for theorizing how much it affected Parks.

Yeah…actually …I’ve been accused of being every age from 19 to 85 round here…so I’m somewhere on that spray chart

I’m aware of Disneyland’s ops history…not my side of land mass…but still understand what happened (more below)…
I was there a few weeks ago…it was “moderate” I’d say…not really packed by any stretch

I’m fully expecting I’ll find Florida in the same state I left it when last was…eerily light

Anecdotal evidence is only anecdotal.

Proportionally…the market has grown on roughly a 45 degree angle over their history…which is consistent with frequency of travel. Flights, hotel development, number of raw tourists traveling to “destinations” as opposed to local/regional spots. It correlates far more than you were mistakenly told…if not perfectly

Honestly, I can't make heads nor tails of what you're trying to say here.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

The 'Gulf War' recession? It wasn't even a year long officially. Hardly something you can use for theorizing how much it affected Parks.

You remember what that recession involved? It’s actually pretty fascinating because of who it hit and why…even if not prolonged.

The other one was very bizarre - in Orlando at least - that occurred in 2001. Often mistakenly labeled “9/11”…it wasn’t caused by that or matched to the date. Just prolonged it.

I find this kinda dynamic fascinating…most would rather watch paint dry.

Anecdotal evidence is only anecdotal.

Indeed. And patterns are patterns.

Honestly, I can't make heads nor tails of what you're trying to say here.

There is a correlation over the entire park history to how economic hiccups affect their crowds and strategies…moreso than you seem to believe.


By the way…I’m still trying to carbon date you…You hide your age well in your posting…not quite grounded/cynical enough for a hard X.:.not quite aggressive (except for this week) as a Y…so I’m guessing closer to that fringe border zone…like that 1980-86 range?

 

[monothingie]

Crazy-Good Ticket Deal for Disneyland's 70th! - Disney Tourist Blog

Disney has released a new deal for Disneyland & California Adventure admission that beats the current general public 70th Anniversary discount, and offers a ‘fully loaded’ Park Hopper ticket with Lightning Lane Multi-Pass & more for a crazy-good price. Here are dates & details about the special...

www.disneytouristblog.com

Everything is fine.

No Problems

 

[Tha Realest]

Yeah, do you know why? The parks were a completely different animal before that. There wasn't a real recession in the 1990s to even consider.

If that were in any way true Bill Clinton would not be in The Hall of Presidents.

 

[Disstevefan1]

Crazy-Good Ticket Deal for Disneyland's 70th! - Disney Tourist Blog

Disney has released a new deal for Disneyland & California Adventure admission that beats the current general public 70th Anniversary discount, and offers a ‘fully loaded’ Park Hopper ticket with Lightning Lane Multi-Pass & more for a crazy-good price. Here are dates & details about the special...

www.disneytouristblog.com

Everything is fine.

No Problems

 

[networkpro]

I never said 'everything is fine'. Not even close.

Are they pricing people out? Do you have proof of that? Disneyland is screaming busy, among the busiest its ever been month after month, and its in one of the highest CoL areas in one of the highest CoL states.

There are other factors that affect WDW besides purely price.

There's something to be said about parks located in a Metropolitan area with 12.9 million residents. It only takes three tenths of the population to meet Disneyland's average 47,000 daily attendance. Don't forget the 22 acre size difference.

 

[Lilofan]

Yeah, do you know why? The parks were a completely different animal before that. There wasn't a real recession in the 1990s to even consider.

Then you're back in the 80s. Were you around in the 80s to look at what happened? No. But do you know why its also invalid? They weren't treated the same way. They weren't anywhere near as popular. Did you know that even into the mid 80s, Disneyland wasn't even open every day of the week during the slower months?

How the parks did during a recession 30+ years ago is completely irrelevant. And you 100% know that. But anything to try and make a bad point is fine with you.

In the early 1990-91 was a brief recession. At the firm I was at a number of staff were laid off. I survived that lay off and was rewarded with more work and no raise for 2 years.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

So dirt cheap tickets to Disneyland at Costco? And that’s the “crowded” location in its wheelhouse peak time?

…ok…cool, cool

 

[el_super]

According to you and others, everything is fine

Hi.

Yes the made 3 billion dollars profit but the bigger issue is that attendance is down a lot since 2019. You can't keep raising prices to keep increasing profits. They already are pricing people out now and it's going to get worse the more they increase prices.

It's OK if attendance is down because, as was part of the plan, if the guest experience is improving, people will be willing to come back. That's a far better scenario than a park that is cheap, packed with wall to wall people all fighting over a few free fastpasses and having a miserable time.

And now that they know the parks will support the higher prices, they open up more possibilities for new attractions. They're free to spend more now than they would have been if admission had stayed so cheap.

This is all going according to Iger's plan.

The parks were made for big crowds. It's how food and merch make their money. They need high volume of sales to make big profits.

The parks were made for 10 million people annually. Where are they now? 13 million? 15 million? Both things can be true: they can still be packed beyond what they were originally scoped for, and still less than what they saw in 2019.

2019 crowds were unsustainable.

Everything is fine.

No Problems

At $150 a day, still on the high side compared to some of the regular SoCal offerings. Those tickets have worked wonders converting people that were formally on Annual Passes (paying almost nothing per visit to get in) to admissions that, while still discounted, are still higher than they were paying before.

 

[Kamikaze]

If that were in any way true Bill Clinton would not be in The Hall of Presidents.

Oversimplification.

In the early 1990-91 was a brief recession. At the firm I was at a number of staff were laid off. I survived that lay off and was rewarded with more work and no raise for 2 years.

Correct, as I already said.

So dirt cheap tickets to Disneyland at Costco? And that’s the “crowded” location in its wheelhouse peak time?

…ok…cool, cool

Costco has offered discounted tickets for a while, just before it was part of a package. Costco no longer offers Disneyland packages.

Basically you get LL for free with the Costco ticket when compared to the current deal available direct from Disney. And as we already discussed, LL is pure profit for Disney.

You act like they don't do discounting and deals every single year.

There's something to be said about parks located in a Metropolitan area with 12.9 million residents. It only takes three tenths of the population to meet Disneyland's average 47,000 daily attendance. Don't forget the 22 acre size difference.

There's something to be said about Disneyland being in an area where there are unlimited other things to do as well. The battle for the entertainment dollar in the LA area is much bigger than Orlando.

You remember what that recession involved? It’s actually pretty fascinating because of who it hit and why…even if not prolonged.

The other one was very bizarre - in Orlando at least - that occurred in 2001. Often mistakenly labeled “9/11”…it wasn’t caused by that or matched to the date. Just prolonged it.

I find this kinda dynamic fascinating…most would rather watch paint dry.

There were a lot of factors in whats called the 'Gulf War recession' because although oil price had a lot to do with it, a lot of things we're struggling with in 2025 were more problematic.

Indeed. And patterns are patterns.

Patterns don't mean anything until you can put a fact behind it.

There is a correlation over the entire park history to how economic hiccups affect their crowds and strategies…moreso than you seem to believe.

Or maybe its less than you believe.

By the way…I’m still trying to carbon date you…You hide your age well in your posting…not quite grounded/cynical enough for a hard X.:.not quite aggressive (except for this week) as a Y…so I’m guessing closer to that fringe border zone…like that 1980-86 range?

Yes, I was born at some point in the past.

 

[Disstevefan1]

According to you and others, everything is fine at the House of Mouse. Yes the made 3 billion dollars profit but the bigger issue is that attendance is down a lot since 2019. You can't keep raising prices to keep increasing profits. They already are pricing people out now and it's going to get worse the more they increase prices.

The parks were made for big crowds. It's how food and merch make their money. They need high volume of sales to make big profits.

They need to keep offering ticket specials. That will get folks in, then they can fleece them for LL, food and merch.

The great thing about ticket specials, they are specials, no need to change the regular prices.

 

[networkpro]

Oversimplification.


There's something to be said about Disneyland being in an area where there are unlimited other things to do as well. The battle for the entertainment dollar in the LA area is much bigger than Orlando.


Yes, I was born at some point in the past.

10 million fewer locals in Orlando competing for anything. That's pretty simple.

 

[Kamikaze]

10 million fewer locals in Orlando competing for anything. That's pretty simple.

30 million more yearly tourists in Orlando area than LA area. (based on 2023)

Are you just ignoring the fact that there's a lot more to do in SoCal than in Orlando?

 

[networkpro]

30 million more yearly tourists in Orlando area than LA area. (based on 2023)

Are you just ignoring the fact that there's a lot more to do in SoCal than in Orlando?

THe fact you listed that LA isn't the vacation destination that Orlando has become. It's a locals market.

 

[Kamikaze]

THe fact you listed that LA isn't the vacation destination that Orlando has become. It's a locals market.

LA does about 50m yearly tourists, Orlando does 80m. Even if you combine them (tourists and locals), you're looking at ~62m potential visitors (LA) vs ~82m (Orl). There are more daily potential visitors to a WDW park than DLR.

Disneyland is a locals park. It just isn't as much of a locals park as it was 10 years ago.

 

[UNCgolf]

LA does about 50m yearly tourists, Orlando does 80m. Even if you combine them (tourists and locals), you're looking at ~62m potential visitors (LA) vs ~82m (Orl). There are more daily potential visitors to a WDW park than DLR.

Disneyland is a locals park. It just isn't as much of a locals park as it was 10 years ago.

I wonder how those tourist numbers actually break down. While I know some people go for long trips and do multiple things in/around Orlando (and I think that's maybe the standard trip for visitors from Europe), I think the vast majority of Orlando visitors from the US (and probably Canada too) are going for one specific thing. They're either going there for WDW, they're going there for Universal, or they're doing some kind of split trip between the two. In other words, it's really that WDW and Universal are getting tourists instead of Orlando in general.

I think the vast majority of LA tourists are there just to visit the LA metro in general and do a wide variety of things, which may or may not include Disneyland. I've been to LA a few times, e.g., and have never been to Disneyland. I've always been too busy with other things I wanted to see/experience, although I would like to visit Disneyland eventually.

 

[Kamikaze]

I wonder how those tourist numbers actually break down. While I know some people go for long trips and do multiple things in/around Orlando (and I think that's maybe the standard trip for visitors from Europe), I think the vast majority of Orlando visitors from the US (and probably Canada too) are going for one specific thing. They're either going there for WDW, they're going there for Universal, or they're doing some kind of split trip between the two. In other words, it's really that WDW and Universal are getting tourists instead of Orlando in general.

I think the vast majority of LA tourists are there just to visit the LA metro in general and do a wide variety of things, which may or may not include Disneyland. I've been to LA a few times, e.g., and have never been to Disneyland. I've always been too busy with other things I wanted to see/experience, although I would like to visit Disneyland eventually.

That was my exact point.

 

[Eric Graham]

I honestly don't feel like it's very appealing at all to wait for 5 hours for a ride at Universal, but that's just my take:

Blockbuster new theme park is already seeing 5-hour wait times

Thursday marks the official opening of Universal Orlando Resort's Epic Universe, the first major new theme park in the United States in over a decade.

www.sfgate.com