Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

[JD80]

simple really ... all Disney needs to do is add 25% more capacity to each park via additions, add a 5th gate ... slowly increase attendance to show they are growing - but keep capacity limits at the parks so they aren't too crowded - while eliminating park reservations, cut all add-ons, bring back magical express and cut all pricing by 30%

really not that hard

The balancing problem for Disney is filling both the parks and the hotels. If you increase costs, less people go but you may have a higher spending point per guest. But with less people going, you have less hotels filled. I wish we could track hotel occupancy per resort.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

It's funny cause while Orlando parks are suffering, parks like Cedar Point and Kings Island are up in attendance. I know they aren't the same but people are obviously still going to parks just not destination ones.

Some are for sure, not sure about all ... but I do think people are staying more local ... just for costs and I think the pandemic sort of forced people to take a look at what was available more locally and found they enjoyed it (or at least, enough to not feel like the *have* to go to Orlando every year for their vacation)

 

[DisneyDebRob]

Blame poor and incompetent management. It doesn't have to be a zero sum game. Disney has the ability to expand to address many issues with guest satisfaction, but is choosing not to because it increases their operational costs.

You wonder why they sunk all that money into Next Gen, MDE, G+ etc. instead of building a new gate? Because it contributed minimally to their operational cost and served as a driver to extract more revenue from each guest.

Their competitors up the road are quickly building a new gate. Disney can't even finish a scaled back central spine renovation at EPCOT in the same amount of time. We'll see who's right.

Forget the 5th gate. They can’t keep what they do have up and running. Just keep maintenance up on the rides they do have. Keep the parks clean, unlike what I have be seeing the last few years. Stop nickel and dining me for everything. That might get me back.

 

[el_super]

The balancing problem for Disney is filling both the parks and the hotels. If you increase costs, less people go but you may have a higher spending point per guest. But with less people going, you have less hotels filled. I wish we could track hotel occupancy per resort.

They don't really need to fill either to make more money. 2022 proved that.

If attendance is down, but spending per guest is up, they can always start shuttering hotels and reducing park hours to make more money.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

They are not really offering more promotions than they normally do. Maybe some of them are 5% more than in previous years or they are coming out earlier. But we've always had rack rate discounts and bounce back offers and special ticket packages. Let me know when they start offering weird new offerings like how Free Dining was when it first came out decades ago.

That is incorrect…

Not only the amount…the degree. Also a notable shift away from their 3 year Covid gravy train policies.

 

[Disstevefan1]

Some are for sure, not sure about all ... but I do think people are staying more local ... just for costs and I think the pandemic sort of forced people to take a look at what was available more locally and found they enjoyed it (or at least, enough to not feel like the *have* to go to Orlando every year for their vacation)

Agreed. Instead of folks going to WDW twice a year, maybe only once a year because of the costs involved.

 

[JD80]

Disney fans: The parks are too expensive, we're not going.

Also Disney fans: Gotta buy tickets for all those upsell After Hours and Party events before they sell out!!!

I speculated that we may get to the point where people don't buy park tickets any more and just go down and do after hour parties/events only. Think of it this way, you no longer get decent discounts the more park tickets you buy. You used to get a huge discount once you bought 4/5+ tickets, now that number is at like 7.

So if you're spending that $150+ already on a park ticket, why not do it after hours - out of the sun, reduced crowds, classic Disney entertainment that is now behind an after hours paywall, no G+ costs or ILLs.

Just imagine - sleep in, have a great breakfast/brunch, swim at the pool, take a nap and freshen up for an evening at the parks starting at 4/8pm and you never have to worry about all the other nonsense hoops you have to jump through.

With special events happening every day, you could do something like this. Toss in a day at EPCOT for the festival stuff and you're literally missing out on nothing.

If I was doing a solo/adult only trip without my small kids this is what I would do.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

The balancing problem for Disney is filling both the parks and the hotels. If you increase costs, less people go but you may have a higher spending point per guest. But with less people going, you have less hotels filled. I wish we could track hotel occupancy per resort.

It will never make money with “whales”…that was an Iger lie that sycophants bought - contrary to all human brain function - and now we are seeing why? It was slow burn. People have no patience and therefore don’t believe anything beyond their attention span

They don't really need to fill either to make more money. 2022 proved that.

If attendance is down, but spending per guest is up, they can always start shuttering hotels and reducing park hours to make more money.

Incorrect. It’s a public company with a stock price problem. That is their “reality”. It’s never about breaking even in the parks. Since day 1

 

[Touchdown]

Exactly, MNSSHP I get 8 hours at MK, better entertainment, better weather, no G+, lower crowds and extra meet and greets/treats. Infinitely easier.

 

[JD80]

They don't really need to fill either to make more money. 2022 proved that.

If attendance is down, but spending per guest is up, they can always start shuttering hotels and reducing park hours to make more money.

Yeah but they are different business groups. Bonuses are on the line for both separately.

 

[GhostHost1000]

Disney fans: The parks are too expensive, we're not going.

Also Disney fans: Gotta buy tickets for all those upsell After Hours and Party events before they sell out!!!

This. Exactly. Disney creates a problem then Disney makes bank on that problem

Crowded? - more after hour events
Inflated wait times? - sell more genie+
Most Popular attraction - pay again to ride it quicker

 

[Smugpugmug]

I speculated that we may get to the point where people don't buy park tickets any more and just go down and do after hour parties/events only. Think of it this way, you no longer get decent discounts the more park tickets you buy. You used to get a huge discount once you bought 4/5+ tickets, now that number is at like 7.

So if you're spending that $150+ already on a park ticket, why not do it after hours - out of the sun, reduced crowds, classic Disney entertainment that is now behind an after hours paywall, no G+ costs or ILLs.

Just imagine - sleep in, have a great breakfast/brunch, swim at the pool, take a nap and freshen up for an evening at the parks starting at 4/8pm and you never have to worry about all the other nonsense hoops you have to jump through.

With special events happening every day, you could do something like this. Toss in a day at EPCOT for the festival stuff and you're literally missing out on nothing.

If I was doing a solo/adult only trip without my small kids this is what I would do.

This is already happening, albeit not on a large scale. I've seen people say that they've done this and will do this in the future.

My sister is actually doing this this fall. She's going in for MNSSHP and that's it.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Disney fans: The parks are too expensive, we're not going.

Also Disney fans: Gotta buy tickets for all those upsell After Hours and Party events before they sell out!!!

definitely shows that guest behavior is changing ... still demand for "Disney" but the base offering feels devalued.

people doing "normal days" less but then willing to pay for special events. Get those special parades and fireworks, rare characters, etc.

Why when people complain about "spending more to get less", while the "spending more" is annoying I think the feeling of "getting less" is a bigger issue for Disney

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Agreed. Instead of folks going to WDW twice a year, maybe only once a year because of the costs involved.

That would be catastrophic to their bottomline

I don’t have to convince anyone. Just watch the second half

 

[Nubs70]

That's pretty common in many industries, my chemical company always puts out statements like "we had a poor year" we only brought in 800 million. Lol usually it's used as an excuse why we weren't getting raises

My chemical company has you beat. This year it was "We had the best year in history, here is standard 3.5% salary bump plus the same 1.5% into your 401K (the same as when we had the worst year in history).

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

This is already happening, albeit not on a large scale. I've seen people say that they've done this and will do this in the future.

My sister is actually doing this this fall. She's going in for MNSSHP and that's it.

Which causes a significant gap in covering ops costs.

 

[el_super]

Why when people complain about "spending more to get less", while the "spending more" is annoying I think the feeling of "getting less" is a bigger issue for Disney

It depends on how you measure the "getting less" part.

The special parties and extra-ticket events keep selling out, even though they are priced higher and with fewer hours operating than the regular park tickets. You can look at that and say "you're only getting five hours" but when you're getting more entertainment, and fewer crowds, and able to get more done in that five hours, the value is there.

So when it comes to why the value is missing from the regular operating day, it always comes back to overcrowding....
...and the weather.

 

[Smugpugmug]

Which causes a significant gap in covering ops costs.

What about people who do resort only stays? Same results?

 

[JD80]

That is incorrect…

Not only the amount…the degree. Also a notable shift away from their 3 year Covid gravy train policies.

From: https://www.mousesavers.com/historical-information-on-walt-disney-world-resort-discounts/

I see better discounts in 2019 if you ask me for the general public. You had more - especially with Free Dining right there.

2023:

2019

 

[Disstevefan1]

Forget the 5th gate. They can’t keep what they do have up and running. Just keep maintenance up on the rides they do have. Keep the parks clean, unlike what I have be seeing the last few years. Stop nickel and dining me for everything. That might get me back.

Agreed, forget the 5th gate for many reasons.

Unlike their movie business, TWDC HATES to spend money on their domestic parks and also unlike their movie business, their parks business MUST hit targets.

Also, look how long the walls have been up in EPCOT, whatever they are doing will take over 4 years if/when they are done.

How long would it take them to build a 5th gate?

We are not talking about Universal you know.