A Pinocchio ride in Storybook Circus?

[mharrington]

I've been pondering constantly how to put a Pinocchio ride in the Magic Kingdom. One thing I've thought of was to put it in Storybook Circus (as opposed to the Mickey ride I've also constantly thought of), sort of like how a Pinocchio ride was to have been put in the never-built Dumbo's Circusland before built in Fantasyland instead.

I'm not sure, though, how to do it. For one thing, how would it be geographically appropriate to put a ride themed around an Italian (or Germanic Italian) fairy tale in a land themed around a circus that is supposedly set in what looks like America? Also, assuming a dark ride gets put in, I'm not sure if a clone of the Disneyland ride would work here. It works in Fantasyland, but not necessarily in Storybook Circus. A better-case scenario may be a spinner of some kind, which I know a lot of people are madly in love with.

Any ideas?

 

[mharrington]

Pinocchio would be interesting as an animatronic show like Country Bears. There could be other characters as well like the dancing girls and Jiminy Cricket.

I don't know, I think they've been leaning away from animatronic shows as of late. I don't think they do new shows anymore. I want it to be a ride of some kind. What, though, I don't know.

The best I can think of is a swing ride of some kind. One of them is wave swinger like the Silly Symphony Swings. In fact, they could revive the old swing ride concept that was considered before Silly Symphony Swings. I can't find the concept art right now, but I know it's out there.

The other concept is maybe something like the balloon swing ride like Flik's Flyers/Inside Out Emotional Whirlwind:

Regardless, however, I'm having trouble trying to figure out how a Germanic Italian fairy tale about a puppet can fit within the theme of an American circus, which I really don't think fits the theme of Fantasyland at all if the train station is an indication. Any ideas there? Or about the ride itself?

 

[mharrington]

If it was just one attraction I think it would need to be near Village Haus. But it is possible to go bigger and give Pinocchio his own land.

On the other side of the tracks near Storybook Circus there's plenty of land. Dumbo's section could be themed to the good side and Pinocchio's the evil side. Also if more land is needed they could always create a bridge/road tunnel. Like they've done for Downtown Disney in California.

It is just one attraction. Unfortunately, there's no room for even a small balloon-type swing ride over by the Village Haus, even if we took out the bathrooms. It so happens that is right over where the entrance to the Utilidors is.

I'd rather conform my ideas to the real world than just go pure blue sky where there are no limits, as you seem to be suggesting I do.

For those reasons, I had thought of doing a ride over in the Speedway area, but that juts into Tomorrowland a bit. I had thought of doing something related to Monstro, either a small water thrill ride, courtesy of Mack Rides, or a spinning teacup ride but with water.

You also never answered my question about how Pinocchio can fit in an American circus.

 

[mharrington]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's more blue sky to say Disney would replace half of Speedway with Pinocchio. Rather then use land that's just over the tracks from Storybook.

At least it's within the boundaries of the park. Besides, the Speedway is not very popular anyway. I'm also sure there's a reason the space behind the tracks isn't more utilized. And it's also super pricey, I'm sure.

But you still didn't explain how an Italian puppet fits a seemingly American circus. Can you please explain?

 

[mharrington]

Even the land you are adding to already has characters and themings which are different. Some people would say Mickey and his friends don't belong in the same area as Dumbo. Because they are human sized animals in a land with more natural and realistic sized animals.

I'm not talking about characters, I'm talking about setting, how it seems incongruous to have Italian themes in an otherwise American circus. And yes, I was thinking about the modern way of doing lands.

 

[mharrington]

I don't think it matters if the whole land is made up of tents and circus related items.

View attachment 627761
View attachment 627760

How can a ride be done themed just to Pleasure Island?

 

[mharrington]

The land is called Storybook Circus, not Dumbo's Circusland. Disney probably did this so they can have other characters besides the Dumbo ones. Besides Pinocchio would fit the section more than daredevil Goofy does.

It makes no difference at all what country the books were written in. Especially it's if based on the Americanized Disney version. Where many of the characters look like they're straight out of 1940's Chicago.

But even Dumbo's Circusland would have had other characters besides those from "Dumbo". In fact, that was where the Pinocchio ride would have gone, had it been built, rather than in Fantasyland. Frankly, daredevil Goofy would have gone there, too.

But how can a Pinocchio ride here be themed just to Pleasure Island without being a direct lift of the ride in Disneyland? I don't want to end it with Geppetto's workshop, as that would really be out of place.

 

[mharrington]

If Disney was going to put it into Circusland. Then I see no problem with putting it into your version of Storybook Circus.

But that rendering of the tent doesn't really say anything about what's inside. As with Mickey's Madhouse, I've tried to do some research on what they might have done, including posting about it here, but I got nothing of any meaningful substance. As such, this means (again as with Mickey's Madhouse) I felt like I might just have to do something from scratch, with only the barest inspiration to go on.

I don't want to just duplicate the Disneyland dark ride. If the ride were to go into Storybook Circus, then it needs to have a reason to exist there, and that means it should begin and end in that type of circus setting. More to the point, Geppetto's workshop and the little village it's set in do not fit there at all. It's like when people complain about the Frozen boat ride being in the Norway pavilion, even though it has little to do with the real Norway, or people complaining about how the upcoming retheme of Splash Mountain to "The Princess and the Frog", even though the setting is geographically incorrect, as Frontierland is all about the westward expansion from New England (as represented by Liberty Square) to way out west (Big Thunder). I'm trying to mitigate such objections here.

And yes, we are in the days of Galaxy's Edge, where the ride and the land should be a seamless blend of one another as much as possible. And that's what I'm trying to do here. If it's going into a circus area, then it should try and minimize (if not outright eliminate) any contradictions or shocks as much as possible.

So, with that in mind, how could a Pinocchio dark ride (since that's the impression I'm getting from you) work here without being an outright duplicate of the ride in Disneyland?

 

[Evilgidgit]

If I may jump in, this may be a deciding factor in whether or not Pinocchio would fit within Storybook Circus, if the land's storyline and details are taken into account:

This implies the circus is run by and features exclusively animal performers, with no humans in sight -- though this canon rule is a little dubious when you have human cast members acting as members of the show. Of course, Pinocchio is set in late 19th century Italy when compared to the contemporary setting of the circus. Yet, Storybook Circus is considered a part of New Fantasyland, which has clashing historical themes of European eras, whilst the circus has a steam train and airplanes (make that crashed airplanes), so how and where does Pinocchio fit into the theme.

Pinocchio has theatrical and circus/funfair elements throughout in relation to Stromboli and Pleasure Island, but both are actually locations that are secretly dangerous and threatening to the character. So, you have to wonder and ask why would Pinocchio be a part of a semi-modern day circus that is apparently run by animals? Mickey's Madhouse can work because he and his friends are a part of the circus and live in a modern setting (whilst able to be placed elsewhere in time). Pinocchio is a little more grounded in his setting and world. Unless New Fantasyland and Storybook Circus exist in a more Kingdom Hearts type universe where such places can all co-exist without issue. I believe the overall idea for NF was for it to be a magical location where fairy tales and storybooks merge together as one, regardless of temporal displacement.

Pinocchio has always been associated with the circus/funfair/theatre aesthetic, as seen in his dark ride, in parades and shows, etc. Placing Geppetto's workshop in a circus would make no sense. The Disney attractions tend to present what could be considered alternate takes on the films, or at a point where the characters exist before or after their happy endings. Pinocchio would likely be a puppet as that is how most people recognise him or visually imagine him. It would be a bit contradictory setting an attraction after the film's ending, as it would neutralise Pinocchio's happy ending by turning him back into a puppet. Frozen Ever After and Splash Mountain 2.0 follow the "set after the film" narrative, but that can't really be done with Pinocchio, since the character undergoes a life changing transformation.

So, you either find a way to incorporate the need for Pinocchio to be within the circus as a puppet or alternatively do it as a "after the film" step where he is human and has joined the circus for a reason - perhaps to present his father's puppets to a large audience, or he is getting up to mischief, or has merged the better traits of Pleasure Island into Storybook Circus. Maybe Honest John and Gideon turned over a new leaf and joined the circus, or in a "what if" scenario, didn't take Pinocchio to the theatre and instead the trio joined the circus. I'm spitballing here, but laying down the foundation of the story and how it ties in with Storybook Circus is a good place to start, if the option to add a Pinocchio ride is considered.

 

[mharrington]

Mickey's Madhouse can work because he and his friends are a part of the circus and live in a modern setting (whilst able to be placed elsewhere in time). Pinocchio is a little more grounded in his setting and world. Unless New Fantasyland and Storybook Circus exist in a more Kingdom Hearts type universe where such places can all co-exist without issue. I believe the overall idea for NF was for it to be a magical location where fairy tales and storybooks merge together as one, regardless of temporal displacement.

Are you saying that Mickey and the gang are not grounded in reality?

 

[Evilgidgit]

Are you saying that Mickey and the gang are not grounded in reality?

As in Mickey and friends can appear in just about any setting or period, whilst Pinocchio is more tied to his Italian setting.

 

[mharrington]

As in Mickey and friends can appear in just about any setting or period, whilst Pinocchio is more tied to his Italian setting.

So then Mickey and the gang are not tied to reality, right? If that's the case, why is there a Toontown in Disneyland? Or a Mickey ride at the Studios (soon to be at Disneyland)? Those seem tied to a single setting to me.

 

[Evilgidgit]

So then Mickey and the gang are not tied to reality, right? If that's the case, why is there a Toontown in Disneyland? Or a Mickey ride at the Studios (soon to be at Disneyland)? Those seem tied to a single setting to me.

Mickey and co. are less tied to a particular time or setting, and are more prone to being featured in different periods and locations, whilst as you said, Pinocchio is more closely tied to his Italian setting. Frankly, Storybook Circus could probably be its own land despite its small size as it is thematically different enough from New Fantasyland. Whether or not you decide to put a Pinocchio attraction of any kind within the circus is up to you and what is necessary to warrant its inclusion, what type of attraction it should be, and what story to tell.

 

[mharrington]

Mickey and co. are less tied to a particular time or setting, and are more prone to being featured in different periods and locations, whilst as you said, Pinocchio is more closely tied to his Italian setting. Frankly, Storybook Circus could probably be its own land despite its small size as it is thematically different enough from New Fantasyland. Whether or not you decide to put a Pinocchio attraction of any kind within the circus is up to you and what is necessary to warrant its inclusion, what type of attraction it should be, and what story to tell.

As I've said, I've never really felt that Pinocchio fit the Storybook Circus theme. I hadn't thought about the characterization, though. I was just focused on the setting, with mainly just the Disneyland ride to go off of. As I also said, it was planned to go in what would have been Dumbo's Circusland back in the 1970s, but it never happened, and I've tried to find some information about it might have fit, only to find nothing of meaningful.

Instead, since I didn't want to get rid of the Village Haus, but since also there's no room for a ride over in that area without creating some major headaches, I had tried to use part of the Speedway area to do something related to Monstro the Whale, since I figured the ocean was far enough away from the village to not be a problem.

I had kicked around various ideas from a spinning water ride with squirting guns to a small water thrill ride where you escape from Monstro, which would utilize a new boat technology from Mack Rides. But nothing seemed to work without creating a lot of logistical headaches.

But now, I think I may have finally found something: a variation of the spinning tugboat ride (from Zamperla) that has appeared in various parks throughout the world, often as part of a traveling fair:


The only problem is it's too small. I've thought of extending the track a bit beyond the simply U-shaped track and adding some bumps in between (like a Zamperla Disko (kinda) coaster), but I don't think it's ever been done before. Maybe it could be like the Surf Dog ride at Kings Island in Ohio:

 

[mharrington]

You'd have to definitely retheme Village Haus. If Pinocchio was getting his own land or even just an attraction somewhere else in the park.

As is, Rapunzel and Snow White fit the German appearance. But I'm sure they could easily change it to something else. Like what they did over in Disneyland, but hopefully with a bigger budget.

Why would the Village Haus need a retheme if the ride isn't going near it? Does the ride have to connect to the restaurant?

 

[mharrington]

It would feel really strange to have a Pinocchio restaurant no where near the attraction or land. That would be like Disney keeping Pizza Planet in Grand Avenue even though they have Toy Story Land.

That's not true. There are many examples of matching things that are nowhere near each other. For example, Alien Pizza Planet in Disneyland's Tomorrowland is nowhere near the Buzz Lightyear ride, nor is Star Tours (either in Disneyland or the Studios) anywhere near Galaxy's Edge.

While on the subject of Buzz Lightyear, you would think they would put the Buzz Lightyear in Toy Story Land and not Tomorrowland, but they didn't. Several resorts have a Buzz Lightyear ride and a Toy Story Land, sometimes in the same park, and yet they are nowhere near close to each other. And then there's the Peter Pan flight simulator deal being added to Tokyo DisneySea, even though the Peter Pan ride in Tokyo Disneyland is not going anywhere, as far as I know.

Speaking of, Disneyland once had and Disneyland Paris still does have Captain Hook's pirate ship and Skull Rock as explorable places, but they were/are nowhere near the Peter Pan ride in either park.

And let's not forget the Little Mermaid stage/puppet show at the Studios, even though there is a dark ride in the Magic Kingdom.

One last example: Goofy's Sky School, which should be in Mickey's Toontown, it seems, is instead in the Paradise Pier/Park area of the CA Adventure.

Anyway, I think I've made my point. You may think it's strange, but it's actually pretty common. And what's more, I'm not interested in doing a whole land for Pinocchio, just one ride, and not even a major E-ticket ride at that. Maybe a C-ticket, D tops.

 

[mharrington]

Wrong, Buzz Lightyear is in a different park than Toy Story Land. So it falls under different rules than Pinocchio. In fact many IP's have different rides and shows throughout Disney World like Finding Nemo, which is at both Epcot and Animal Kingdom. Frozen, which is at Epcot and Hollywood Studios. And Beauty and the Beast and The Little Mermaid, which are both in Hollywood and Magic.

Those are all derivative of the same IPs, however. And I was referring to ALL Disney parks, not just WDW. Also, in Shanghai, there's a Buzz Lightyear ride in Tomorrowland, separate from Toy Story Land. The same thing with Hong Kong before Buzz was redone as Ant-Man.

Star Tours and Galaxy's Edge are both Star Wars, but different parts of the series. But even though they are different parts, both still do feel a bit strange being in different areas. This is why many fans of come up with ideas to connect them. Star Tours is also a remnant of the past version of Hollywood. Before Galaxy's Edge was even a dream in some imagineers' little minds. It is also an expensive attraction and not a quick service like Pinocchio's Village Haus. So getting rid of it or moving it would be expensive as well.

Star Wars is Star Wars, no matter how you slice it. Again, I was talking about all Disney parks, not just WDW. And it would be beyond impossible to connect one to the other in Disneyland.

More importantly, I want to preserve the Village Haus theme, because they already changed it at Disneyland. If it got rethemed here, then Paris and Shanghai would be the only parks in existence with Pinocchio-themed eateries. There's a reason I'm trying to minimize the setting connection here, beyond the characters, with a Monstro theme, which is set in the sea and not in the village.

 

[mharrington]

Another potential place for a Pinocchio-themed flat ride MIGHT be in the space for Mickey's PhilharMagic, which is so much closer to the Village Haus that you think should be taken into account when considering a Pinocchio ride, but the footprint for that seems pretty small there, too.

The only other place where a ride MIGHT go is over where the bathrooms are near the Village Haus, but that's a problem because it's right close by to the entrance to the all-important Utilidors, as seen on Google Maps.

As you can see, I'm trying to take realism into account and not just going all blue sky, where real-world constraints mean nothing. That's why I'm focusing on the Speedway area, which at least takes up a lot of space and which is not particularly popular anyway.

 

[mharrington]

Pinocchio has always been associated with the circus/funfair/theatre aesthetic, as seen in his dark ride, in parades and shows, etc. Placing Geppetto's workshop in a circus would make no sense. The Disney attractions tend to present what could be considered alternate takes on the films, or at a point where the characters exist before or after their happy endings. Pinocchio would likely be a puppet as that is how most people recognise him or visually imagine him. It would be a bit contradictory setting an attraction after the film's ending, as it would neutralise Pinocchio's happy ending by turning him back into a puppet. Frozen Ever After and Splash Mountain 2.0 follow the "set after the film" narrative, but that can't really be done with Pinocchio, since the character undergoes a life changing transformation.

What about the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train, though? That isn't "set after the film", is it? It's set DURING the film (i.e., the Dwarfs working in the mine, coming home and then having their party with Snow White in the cottage while the Queen-turned-Witch looks on from outside). Or what about the Little Mermaid ride? That's a retelling of the movie.

However, you're right in that Geppetto's workshop would make no sense here, which is one reason why I had brought up how the Pinocchio ride might have worked in Dumbo's Circusland (before it was added to Fantasyland proper instead), as I have no information to go on there and thus nothing to compare it, too. It would just basically the trip through Pleasure Island (and maybe Stromboli's puppet show before that), and that's it. It would have to be drastically different than the ride in Disneyland.

 

[mharrington]

Yep, that's the area I said in the other thread. There's plenty of space and it doesn't have to fit into a section it may not belong. I don't think the utilidors matter much either because it's mostly wide open.

I tried fitting, say, a copy of the swinging balloons (like Emotional Whirlwind) over there, but even that requires a decent-sized footprint that, in this case, is too big for this space. You have to take the queue, which here would be themed to Geppetto's workshop, into account, as well as the ride mechanism. It just seems too small of a space for back there.

Unlike a lot of people here, I try to be ultrarealistic and not just pure blue sky.