Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[hopemax]

I am amazed that we are now pretending that these vaccines were not intended to prevent infection and were explained in that manner. Absolutely amazed.

I'm going back to this...

October 2020 - Transcript of interview with Dr. Fauci

Dr. Anthony Fauci: The vaccine won't be the end of the story

Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), discusses the purpose, development and timeline of COVID-19 vaccines in the United States and Europe.

www.yahoo.com

ANTHONY FAUCI: And that's the primary endpoint of most of the virus. It's to prevent clinical disease, to prevent symptomatic disease, not necessarily to prevent infection. That's a secondary endpoint. But the primary thing you want to do is that if people get infected, prevent them from getting sick. And if you prevent them from getting sick, you will ultimately prevent them from getting seriously ill.

So that's what we want to do. The first point, which we call a primary endpoint, is that. If the vaccine also allows you to prevent initial infection, that would be great. But what I would settle for, and all of my colleagues would settle for, is the primary endpoint to prevent clinically recognizable disease. And that's what we hope happens. And if we do, that will go a long way to diffusing this very difficult crisis that we're in.

*****

June 2020 - Bloomberg

The First Covid Vaccines May Not Prevent Covid Infection [It's like the actual article title]

Read more at: https://www.bloombergquint.com/coro...ccines-may-not-prevent-you-from-getting-covid

"Desperation for a way to keep economies from collapsing under the weight of covid-19 could mean settling for a vaccine that prevents people from getting really sick or dying but doesn’t stop them from catching the coronavirus.

Although a knock-out blow against the virus is the ultimate goal, early vaccines may come with limitations on what they can deliver, according to Robin Shattock, an Imperial College London professor leading development of an experimental shot.

“Is that protection against infection?” Shattock said. “Is it protection against illness? Is it protection against severe disease? It’s quite possible a vaccine that only protects against severe disease would be very useful.”"

later...

“Vaccines need to protect against disease, not necessarily infection,” said Dennis Burton, an immunologist and vaccine researcher at Scripps Research in La Jolla, California.

And also this prescient bit:

“My guess would be that the day after someone gets immunized, they’re going to think, ‘I can go back to normal. Everything will be fine,'” he said. “They’re not going to necessarily realize that they might still be susceptible to infection.”

***

When the vaccines were being rolled out, the "vaccines don't prevent infection" was being used as a talking point by anti-vaxers, to the point where FactCheck.org made a page about it in January 2021. In a December 2020 interview with CNN Dr. Fauci explained why mask wearing was still necessary.

Video Misinterprets Fauci’s Comments on COVID-19 Vaccine - FactCheck.org

A Facebook video distorts a CNN interview with Dr. Anthony Fauci to falsely suggest that a COVID-19 vaccine authorized in the U.S doesn’t “protect you from covid.”

www.factcheck.org

"The clip begins with Cuomo asking Fauci why it will still be necessary to wear a face mask even after a person is vaccinated. Fauci explains this is because while the vaccine does an excellent job at protecting people from falling ill, it might not prevent infection — and initially there will still be a lot of virus circulating in the population.

“You could be prevented from getting clinical disease, and still have the virus that is in your nasopharynx because you could get infected,” he said. “We’re not sure, at this point, that the vaccine protects you against getting infected.”"

We do know that the original clinical trials, against wild type COVID resulted in high levels of symptomatic disease protection. Which did not hold up against the newer variants. But that is not the same as "intention to prevent infection entirely", which these examples clearly demonstrate was considered an unknown, a bonus. So if you are absolutely amazed, well, so am I.

 

[Trauma]

Didn't say we.... I said I. And then do admit that if it's same stuff different day same poster regurgitation I put it on ignore. I'm not willing to play into trolls at all who don't actually discuss but just copy and paste so to speak and don't back up with facts. That's me though. Many people here I feel go on both extremes but talk kindly and with facts to back up.

I don’t know where I fall on this Helena.

I’m 100% pro vaccine but I’ve seen so many people called all sorts of nonsense for information that later turned out to be correct. ( I think I’m guilty of this myself)

The one thing that is ultimately clear is getting vaccinated is the best thing you can do to protect yourself and end this nonsense quicker.

 

[Andrew C]

I'm going back to this...

October 2020 - Transcript of interview with Dr. Fauci

Dr. Anthony Fauci: The vaccine won't be the end of the story

Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), discusses the purpose, development and timeline of COVID-19 vaccines in the United States and Europe.

www.yahoo.com

ANTHONY FAUCI: And that's the primary endpoint of most of the virus. It's to prevent clinical disease, to prevent symptomatic disease, not necessarily to prevent infection. That's a secondary endpoint. But the primary thing you want to do is that if people get infected, prevent them from getting sick. And if you prevent them from getting sick, you will ultimately prevent them from getting seriously ill.

So that's what we want to do. The first point, which we call a primary endpoint, is that. If the vaccine also allows you to prevent initial infection, that would be great. But what I would settle for, and all of my colleagues would settle for, is the primary endpoint to prevent clinically recognizable disease. And that's what we hope happens. And if we do, that will go a long way to diffusing this very difficult crisis that we're in.

*****

June 2020 - Bloomberg

The First Covid Vaccines May Not Prevent Covid Infection [It's like the actual article title]

Read more at: https://www.bloombergquint.com/coro...ccines-may-not-prevent-you-from-getting-covid

"Desperation for a way to keep economies from collapsing under the weight of covid-19 could mean settling for a vaccine that prevents people from getting really sick or dying but doesn’t stop them from catching the coronavirus.

Although a knock-out blow against the virus is the ultimate goal, early vaccines may come with limitations on what they can deliver, according to Robin Shattock, an Imperial College London professor leading development of an experimental shot.

“Is that protection against infection?” Shattock said. “Is it protection against illness? Is it protection against severe disease? It’s quite possible a vaccine that only protects against severe disease would be very useful.”"

later...

“Vaccines need to protect against disease, not necessarily infection,” said Dennis Burton, an immunologist and vaccine researcher at Scripps Research in La Jolla, California.

And also this prescient bit:

“My guess would be that the day after someone gets immunized, they’re going to think, ‘I can go back to normal. Everything will be fine,'” he said. “They’re not going to necessarily realize that they might still be susceptible to infection.”

***

When the vaccines were being rolled out, the "vaccines don't prevent infection" was being used as a talking point by anti-vaxers, to the point where FactCheck.org made a page about it in January 2021. In a December 2020 interview with CNN Dr. Fauci explained why mask wearing was still necessary.

Video Misinterprets Fauci’s Comments on COVID-19 Vaccine - FactCheck.org

A Facebook video distorts a CNN interview with Dr. Anthony Fauci to falsely suggest that a COVID-19 vaccine authorized in the U.S doesn’t “protect you from covid.”

www.factcheck.org

"The clip begins with Cuomo asking Fauci why it will still be necessary to wear a face mask even after a person is vaccinated. Fauci explains this is because while the vaccine does an excellent job at protecting people from falling ill, it might not prevent infection — and initially there will still be a lot of virus circulating in the population.

“You could be prevented from getting clinical disease, and still have the virus that is in your nasopharynx because you could get infected,” he said. “We’re not sure, at this point, that the vaccine protects you against getting infected.”"

We do know that the original clinical trials, against wild type COVID resulted in high levels of symptomatic disease protection. Which did not hold up against the newer variants. But that is not the same as "intention to prevent infection entirely", which these examples clearly demonstrate was considered an unknown, a bonus. So if you are absolutely amazed, well, so am I.

Geez. We back to this conversation. Do I need to pull quotes too that back my position? Pass.

 

[correcaminos]

I don’t know where I fall on this Helena.

I’m 100% pro vaccine but I’ve seen so many people called all sorts of nonsense of information that later turned out to be correct. ( I think I’m guilty of this myself )

The one thing that is ultimately clear is getting vaccinated is the best thing you can do to protect yourself and end this nonsense quicker.

It's one thing to say something backed by current knowledge but then find out it's wrong and it's another to keep repeating same wrong stuff that has been disproven. We all have said info that was right for the time but then proven wrong.

Like pushing ivermectin more than once right now... nah don't have much time for that.

Get vaccinated. Boost if ya can. That's all I can suggest to do.

 

[Lilofan]

It's one thing to say something backed by current knowledge but then find out it's wrong and it's another to keep repeating same wrong stuff that has been disproven. We all have said info that was right for the time but then proven wrong.

Like pushing ivermectin more than once right now... nah don't have much time for that.

Get vaccinated. Boost if ya can. That's all I can suggest to do.

Boost is great for all especially the elderly with or without underlying conditions. Two of my friends in this group are currently under the weather but both are so glad they got the three shots. It could have been worse like some I used to work with who did not get the vaccine and are in worse shape.

 

[Trauma]

It's one thing to say something backed by current knowledge but then find out it's wrong and it's another to keep repeating same wrong stuff that has been disproven. We all have said info that was right for the time but then proven wrong.

Like pushing ivermectin more than once right now... nah don't have much time for that.

Get vaccinated. Boost if ya can. That's all I can suggest to do.

Very good point.

There has also been some things that seemed like grey areas to me.

Let’s take infection providing as much or more protection than vaccination.

There was conflicting evidence about this for awhile, but people who provided contrary evidence too the mainstream narrative where shouted down here as anti vax.

Now the CDC is saying exactly what was once “anti vax rhetoric”.

I’m not saying your guilty of any of this Helena, I just enjoy discourse with you since you take all sides of a discussion into account

 

[CLEtoWDW]

I think it’s time we take a page from the UK’s playbook. No more COVID mandates and let’s just get on with our lives. If that makes you uncomfortable feel free to reside on your couch.

 

[Married5Times]

Repeating over and over that it is a pandemic of the unvaccinated doesn't make it so.

Mayor Demings with his staunch mask and protocol loving stance is now hosting. He is now a carrier. Conversely, I guess one could say he like thousands upon thousands of others is contributing to the battle cry of "pandemic of the unvaccinated and vaccinated"

I guess all of his rigid behaviors and policies did not help him. Such a waste.

 

[mmascari]

There has also been some things that seemed like grey areas to me.

Let’s take infection providing as much or more protection than vaccination.

There was conflicting evidence about this for awhile, but people who provided contrary evidence too the mainstream narrative where shouted down here as anti vax.

Now the CDC is saying exactly what was once “anti vax rhetoric”.

First, thank you for calling it "[prior] infection" and not "natural immunity". I always detest when people call it "natural immunity" like there's some large set of people that are just naturally immune with nothing to worry about ever.

Which also get's to the appropriation problem then. There are definitely some posters following the path of:
1 - natural immunity prior infection can provide as much protection as two vaccine doses.
2 - COVID isn't a big deal, it only kills like 1% of people, 1% is practically nothing. Other outcomes don't matter.
3 - Might as well get COVID, protection is just as good then, and who knows what's even in that vaccine.

Which makes it hard to talk about the protection provided by prior infection, since is that what you're discussing or are you discussing all of these?

It's good to see that prior infection of a sufficient quantity is as good as two vaccine doses. Of course the short, medium, and long term risks of prior infection are way worse than two vaccine doses. That study conveniently didn't include anyone who died from the prior infection. It was kind of self selecting for that.

However, getting a booster afterwards is still better than either prior infection or only two doses.
All this assumes you have a large enough dose of the prior infection too, which is hard to measure so individual results may vary.
Finally, getting vaccinated is clearly better than thinking you had a prior infection because you felt bad so it must have been COVID but you didn't actually test, you're just assuming, and if you happen to be wrong you're really neither prior infection or vaccinated which we know is no protection at all then.

Which leads to the final outcome, in all of these scenarios, it's best to just get vaccinated and boosted even if you've had a prior infection for the best possible protection.

 

[hopemax]

Geez. We back to this conversation. Do I need to pull quotes too that back my position? Pass.

Is there some time limit I am unaware of?

And my point is not to deny what you might have seen. (Edit to add: so you posting your own links is unnecessary, as what you saw doesn’t disprove what I and others saw.). But you are amazed that anyone could have thought differently than you. Reading the things I posted, you still can’t see how it’s possible? Don’t those imply that “infection prevention” was a secondary consideration in vaccine development?

 

[DisneyDebRob]

It's one thing to say something backed by current knowledge but then find out it's wrong and it's another to keep repeating same wrong stuff that has been disproven. We all have said info that was right for the time but then proven wrong.

Like pushing ivermectin more than once right now... nah don't have much time for that.

Get vaccinated. Boost if ya can. That's all I can suggest to do.

Agree. The easiest thing to do and it happens here way to much is play the gotcha game.
Things said 2years ago are being brought up now as they were lying or trying to fool us. When I read certain posts with quote’s from “ leaders” or “ scientists “ made that far ago, or heck even a few months ago, that claim “ they told us something different “ obviously have no idea how science works. You put out the best decision and advice at that certain time in. It’s going to change and always has for millennia. With everything. What we are hearing now will be different most likely then what we hear in a few months. No one lied to us, it’s science working as it should.

 

[Andrew C]

Is there some time limit I am unaware of?

And my point is not to deny what you might have seen. But you are amazed that anyone could have thought differently than you. Reading the things I posted, you still can’t see how it’s possible? Don’t those imply that “infection prevention” was a secondary consideration in vaccine development?

It doesn’t align with past CDC comments, leader comments, or even some past comments from Fauci himself. I’ll leave it at that because I think the discussion has run it’s course.

 

[DisneyFan32]

I heard Spain is ready to go into endemic mode. No more treating it like an emergency.

is New Jersey is ready to go into endemic mode as NYC too by March or April. I'm ready NJ Transit to lose masks for trains and buses soon.

 

[MaryJaneP]

Awww. Does this mean an ending to this very entertaining keyboard cowboy battle?

 

[correcaminos]

1st record of animal to human transmission....
Don't kiss your hamster

Dang I missed some pages earlier. This post made my day

 

[Trauma]

First, thank you for calling it "[prior] infection" and not "natural immunity". I always detest when people call it "natural immunity" like there's some large set of people that are just naturally immune with nothing to worry about ever.

Which also get's to the appropriation problem then. There are definitely some posters following the path of:
1 - natural immunity prior infection can provide as much protection as two vaccine doses.
2 - COVID isn't a big deal, it only kills like 1% of people, 1% is practically nothing. Other outcomes don't matter.
3 - Might as well get COVID, protection is just as good then, and who knows what's even in that vaccine.

Which makes it hard to talk about the protection provided by prior infection, since is that what you're discussing or are you discussing all of these?

It's good to see that prior infection of a sufficient quantity is as good as two vaccine doses. Of course the short, medium, and long term risks of prior infection are way worse than two vaccine doses. That study conveniently didn't include anyone who died from the prior infection. It was kind of self selecting for that.

However, getting a booster afterwards is still better than either prior infection or only two doses.
All this assumes you have a large enough dose of the prior infection too, which is hard to measure so individual results may vary.
Finally, getting vaccinated is clearly better than thinking you had a prior infection because you felt bad so it must have been COVID but you didn't actually test, you're just assuming, and if you happen to be wrong you're really neither prior infection or vaccinated which we know is no protection at all then.

Which leads to the final outcome, in all of these scenarios, it's best to just get vaccinated and boosted even if you've had a prior infection for the best possible protection.

Of course it’s a slippery slope.

However it’s also great news. It does mean that a portion of the populous who was never going to vaccinate now has protection if they survived.

That means we have an overall larger percentage of people who are protected.

When I was under the impression that prior infection did not protect nearly as much as vaccination, it seemed to me hopeless to find an endpoint in all of this.

Maybe it means that family’s who have been separated over vaccines are able to once again see each other.

Im just trying to find the good in things, and I certainly perceive the fact that prior infection does provide strong protection as a positive development.

 

[seascape]

is New Jersey is ready to go into endemic mode as NYC too by March or April. I'm ready NJ Transit to lose masks for trains and buses soon.

Who cares if there is a mask requirement or not. I will never ride public transportation again. I know in November 2020 I was infected with Covid somewhere between Penn Station Newark and Staten Island. It could have been in Newark Penn Station, on the PATH Train or the Ferry or even the SI MTA bus. It doesnt matter where because I wore an N95 mask, wore protective gloves and sat on 3 different plastic seat covers. I did everything I could and so I don't care anymore, no more public transit. People who are sick ride it and it doesn't have to be just with Covid19. I will also never go into a drug store again without a N95 mask. Life is too short to not take reasonable steps to protect my health. Everyone should learn from this and take reasonable steps to protect their health. Take vaccines, wear masks where reasonable wash your hands and just be as safe as you can be.

 

[DisneyFan32]

Who cares if there is a mask requirement or not. I will never ride public transportation again. I know in November 2020 I was infected with Covid somewhere between Penn Station Newark and Staten Island. It could have been in Newark Penn Station, on the PATH Train or the Ferry or even the SI MTA bus. It doesnt matter where because I wore an N95 mask, wore protective gloves and sat on 3 different plastic seat covers. I did everything I could and so I don't care anymore, no more public transit. People who are sick ride it and it doesn't have to be just with Covid19. I will also never go into a drug store again without a N95 mask. Life is too short to not take reasonable steps to protect my health. Everyone should learn from this and take reasonable steps to protect their health. Take vaccines, wear masks where reasonable wash your hands and just be as safe as you can be.

Calm down. Everything's going to be okay. We're almost ending the pandemic. COVID-19 will be no more problems anymore so I don't wear mask when I'm vaccinated anymore.

 

[Lilofan]

Who cares if there is a mask requirement or not. I will never ride public transportation again. I know in November 2020 I was infected with Covid somewhere between Penn Station Newark and Staten Island. It could have been in Newark Penn Station, on the PATH Train or the Ferry or even the SI MTA bus. It doesnt matter where because I wore an N95 mask, wore protective gloves and sat on 3 different plastic seat covers. I did everything I could and so I don't care anymore, no more public transit. People who are sick ride it and it doesn't have to be just with Covid19. I will also never go into a drug store again without a N95 mask. Life is too short to not take reasonable steps to protect my health. Everyone should learn from this and take reasonable steps to protect their health. Take vaccines, wear masks where reasonable wash your hands and just be as safe as you can be.

If one chooses not to ride public transportation in NYC and decides to drive instead , pack a lot of patience in driving and trying to find a place to park.

 

[G00fyDad]

If one chooses not to ride public transportation in NYC and decides to drive instead , pack a lot of patience in driving and trying to find a place to park.

No kidding! I was completely dumbfounded at the cab drivers in New york. God bless them! There's no way I could drive in Manhattan. Period. You always see TV shows and movies set in New York with a bunch of honking horns all the time. They're not being angry about it when they honk their horn. It's more of a way of letting the person near them know that they're sitting right there and to be careful. Our cab driver took us from the train station to our hotel in lower Manhattan in record time and he must have buzzed two dozen vehicles by a mere inch. I was white knuckling it in the backseat ready to puke. I thought my wife was going to pass out. Once I got out of the van at our hotel I started laughing because I suddenly realized that this guy does this every single day and his van was in immaculate condition. There's no way I could drive in New york. On top of the fact that I have no patience.