Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[Angel Ariel]

Our delta surge happened when vaccinations were still consistently climbing and it was hot as all hell this year…

who knows at this point?

To be fair, when it’s hot as hell people also tend to spend more time indoors in air conditioning..and when it’s cold they spend more time indoors for heat.

My understanding has always been that the seasonality of it is not about the weather itself, but rather more about how much time people are spending indoors.

 

[DisneyCane]

I put the “caveat” before and after, and in every post. So yes… important to read the entire thing.



See… I do care. No person should pass on a vaccine without talking to a doctor. It’s a free world, not going to force anyone to get a vaccine. But it is very foolish to pass on a vaccine without medical advice.




So doctors shouldn’t push boosters?

See.. I don’t believe all opinions are equal. And when it comes to medical advice, I’ll give doctors far greater weight than I will random opinions.

So I’ll stand by my “opinion” — listen to your doctor. Don’t avoid a booster or vaccine because you’re afraid of side effects, speak to a doctor about your concerns. And for 99.99% of people, the doctor will assure you the vaccine is safe.



That’s your opinion. Again, I’ll take scientists and doctors over it. There is significant dispute in the medical community about whether boosters are necessary. But there isn’t much dispute about whether they are helpful or hurtful. The overall consensus is that they are helpful — the dispute is whether they are helpful enough to be “necessary.”

At @helenabear posted, the need for a booster is not remotely settled science. In fact, the rationale that was submitted by Moderna to the FDA doesn't even make a strong case. The following quoted passage is directly from the FDA meeting briefing document.

3. Rationale For COVID-19 Vaccine Booster Doses

Concerns have been raised that declining neutralizing antibody titers or reduced effectiveness against symptomatic disease may herald significant declines in effectiveness against severe disease. The recent emergence of the highly transmissible Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2 resulted in a new wave of COVID-19 cases in many parts of the world and has led to considerations for administration of booster doses to individuals who received primary series of vaccines in an effort to enhance immunity, and thus sustain protection from COVID-19.

The expected benefit of booster vaccination will depend on the impact that booster vaccination has in reducing disease relative to the primary series. If the primary series of Moderna COVID19 Vaccine is still effective in preventing important COVID-19-related outcomes, then the benefit of booster vaccination is likely to be more limited than if effectiveness following the primary series has waned substantially. Factors supporting authorization of a booster dose should consider the effectiveness of primary vaccination with Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine over time and against circulating variants, the effectiveness (and its duration) of booster vaccination in preventing important COVID-19-related outcomes (including death, hospitalization, and infection with SARS-CoV-2 followed by long COVID-19) in individuals who have already received a 13 primary vaccination series, the dynamics of the pandemic in the United States, and the risks of booster vaccination in the general population or in certain subpopulations.

Some real world effectiveness studies have suggested declining efficacy of Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine over time against symptomatic infection or against the Delta variant, while others have not. However, overall, data indicate that currently US-licensed or authorized COVID-19 vaccines still afford protection against severe COVID-19 disease and death in the United States. There are many potentially relevant studies, but FDA has not independently reviewed or verified the underlying data or their conclusions.

The rationale is essentially, "it might help and won't hurt so get a booster." They don't have any firm science that they cite that indicates declining efficacy against severe disease and death.

Scientists continue to say there isn't enough evidence to make COVID-19 boosters available to all Americans

An influential Food and Drug Administration committee is set to meet Friday to discuss whether the regulator should approve BioNTech and Pfizer's COVID-19...

www.marketwatch.com

Not all agree with your opinion either.

Again I'm not here to argue. Please respect that I'm not one who wants to get into a never ending argument that comes across as rude to posters. You have your opinions and I have mine. I will respect yours if you mine. Have a nice night.

Thank you for posting this article which illustrates that the booster issue isn't so cut and dried.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I am not worried. All the CM's are vaccinated and the majority of guests but since nothing is 100% we should take the extra dtep to protect our wonderful CM's.

I’m not “worried” either…just mercurial

I’m glad you appreciate the employees. Many that whine and cry about covid restrictions obviously don’t and never will.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

To be fair, when it’s hot as hell people also tend to spend more time indoors in air conditioning..and when it’s cold they spend more time indoors for heat.

My understanding has always been that the seasonality of it is not about the weather itself, but rather more about how much time people are spending indoors.

They do…but less so when everyone is freezing and there is little if any outdoor activity.

 

[DisneyCane]

Dr. Fauci Just Issued This "Surge" Warning

Vermont is #1 in % of population fully vaccinated (71.8%) and Maine is tied for #3 (71.2%) and those states are currently 13th and 11th worst, respectively, in case rate. Washington and Oregon have over 3 times the rate of FL and both have mask mandates that include OUTDOOR requirements.

Maybe it's time for Fauci to stop pushing authoritarian "mitigation forever" and stick to pushing people to get vaccinated to protect themselves from severe illness. The same guy who is on video saying how little masks will do is now blaming not masking indoors for surges. He knows that "COVID zero" is not going to happen but refuses to say it.

The only real tool we have that actually does something is the vaccines. They clearly significantly reduce the risk of ending up in the hospital or in the ground if you get infected with SARS-CoV-2.

 

[DisneyCane]

To be fair, when it’s hot as hell people also tend to spend more time indoors in air conditioning..and when it’s cold they spend more time indoors for heat.

My understanding has always been that the seasonality of it is not about the weather itself, but rather more about how much time people are spending indoors.

I also think that radiant heating systems (as opposed to forced air) are worse because there is no filtration. Many homes in the north use radiant heat, especially older ones.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Vermont is #1 in % of population fully vaccinated (71.8%) and Maine is tied for #3 (71.2%) and those states are currently 13th and 11th worst, respectively, in case rate. Washington and Oregon have over 3 times the rate of FL and both have mask mandates that include OUTDOOR requirements.

Would you like to try this again looking at the more important indicators of hospitalization and death and attempt to make the same case? And also factor in FL's most recent wave which dwarfed what happened in other states and catapulted it from the bottom of deaths per capita to the 8th most deaths per capita in just two months?

The whole booster debate is based on, again... what to we want the vaccines to do? Suppress every case of COVID even if it's mild or asymptomatic? Or, keep people out of the hospital or dying?

This has been posted several times before, but, here it is again for all the ''proof'' you need...

But it is unsurprising that you're making the case that vaccines don't matter.

That is the kind of talking point an anti-vaxxer makes. Even when they claim to not be anti-vaxx, they make the case against vaccines. So...

 

[DisneyCane]

Would you like to try this again looking at the more important indicators of hospitalization and death and attempt to make the same case? And also factor in FL's most recent wave which dwarfed what happened in other states and catapulted it from the bottom of deaths per capita to the 8th most deaths per capita in just two months?

The whole booster debate is based on, again... what to we want the vaccines to do? Suppress every case of COVID even if it's mild or asymptomatic? Or, keep people out of the hospital or dying?

This has been posted several times before, but, here it is again for all the ''proof'' you need...

View attachment 599977

But it is unsurprising that you're making the case that vaccines don't matter.

That is the kind of talking point an anti-vaxxer makes. Even when they claim to not be anti-vaxx, they make the case against vaccines. So...

That isn't the case I'm making. Nice of you to cut the following out of my post when you quoted it:

The only real tool we have that actually does something is the vaccines. They clearly significantly reduce the risk of ending up in the hospital or in the ground if you get infected with SARS-CoV-2.

The case I'm making is to stop focusing on "surges" in cases as a justification for "mitigation forever" which is what Fauci was doing in those quotes from the posted article that @GimpYancIent quoted.

I AM NOT ANTI-VAXX (COVID OR OTHERWISE). I am against mandated vaccines because the mandates are based on them protecting others and the CDC itself has said they aren't great at preventing spread. I am FOR people voluntarily getting vaccinated to protect themselves from serious illness. However, I am FOR them making the (in my opinion bad) decision NOT to protect themselves.

 

[correcaminos]

I also think that radiant heating systems (as opposed to forced air) are worse because there is no filtration. Many homes in the north use radiant heat, especially older ones.

Maybe this is regional but it's not at all common here. Those who have it have newer homes.

 

[correcaminos]

That isn't the case I'm making. Nice of you to cut the following out of my post when you quoted it:


The case I'm making is to stop focusing on "surges" in cases as a justification for "mitigation forever" which is what Fauci was doing in those quotes from the posted article that @GimpYancIent quoted.

I AM NOT ANTI-VAXX (COVID OR OTHERWISE). I am against mandated vaccines because the mandates are based on them protecting others and the CDC itself has said they aren't great at preventing spread. I am FOR people voluntarily getting vaccinated to protect themselves from serious illness. However, I am FOR them making the (in my opinion bad) decision NOT to protect themselves.

Sorry but no they haven't :

COVID-19 vaccines are effective at protecting people from COVID-19 and help keep adults and children from getting seriously sick. COVID-19 vaccines can reduce the risk of people spreading the virus that causes COVID-19. Getting everyone ages 5 years and older vaccinated can help the entire family, including siblings who are not eligible for vaccination and family members who may be at risk of getting very sick if they are infected.

COVID-19 Vaccination

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.

www.cdc.gov

 

[drizgirl]

I AM NOT ANTI-VAXX (COVID OR OTHERWISE). I am against mandated vaccines because the mandates are based on them protecting others and the CDC itself has said they aren't great at preventing spread. I am FOR people voluntarily getting vaccinated to protect themselves from serious illness. However, I am FOR them making the (in my opinion bad) decision NOT to protect themselves.

The problem is that things have morphed into "If you are against mandates, you are anti-vax".

 

[havoc315]

At @helenabear posted, the need for a booster is not remotely settled science. In fact, the rationale that was submitted by Moderna to the FDA doesn't even make a strong case. The following quoted passage is directly from the FDA meeting briefing document.

That's a misperception. There are multiple angles, some in dispute and some are not.
The "need" for boosters to bring down deaths to reasonable levels is indeed in dispute. Whether globally we are better off sending out additional doses across the globe instead of using them domestically, whether a booster provides enough additional protection to be "necessary" are indeed topics of debate.

What's not in debate: 1 -- Boosters are safe. 2 -- Boosters do increase protection against infection, hospitalization and death (only the degree is open to debate). 3 -- If we want to ever reach herd immunity, we absolutely need boosters.

You won't find any credible doctor or scientists who will say that boosters are "bad." What's open to debate is only whether they are "necessary."

The rationale is essentially, "it might help and won't hurt so get a booster." They don't have any firm science that they cite that indicates declining efficacy against severe disease and death.

Yes, there is indeed tons of evidence. It's just a question of degree. Where efficacy against infection drops from 90% to 60%, but protection against severe disease and death drops from 95% to 90%, for example. (multiple studies in Israel can be more precise). There is no question of declining efficacy against death, just a question of degree.

But that raises the secondary point that the anti-boosters are ignoring: If you don't protect against infection, then the disease will continue to circulate in high numbers, you will get more variants, and over time, risk of death and severe disease will increase.

Thank you for posting this article which illustrates that the booster issue isn't so cut and dried.

Note the article in 2 months old.... and in that time, the "pro booster" argument has seen the evidence grow in support. As warned by the pro-booster argument, the failure to widely distribute boosters is about to contribute to a significant winter/fall surge. This surge, just starting now, could have been avoided if we had aggressively boosted over the last 2 months.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The problem is that things have morphed into "If you are against mandates, you are anti-vax".

As always, if you don’t want to be labeled anti-vax then don’t use anti-vax talking points.

 

[drizgirl]

As always, if you don’t want to be labeled anti-vax then don’t use anti-vax talking points.

As I said.

 

[DisneyCane]

Sorry but no they haven't :

COVID-19 vaccines are effective at protecting people from COVID-19 and help keep adults and children from getting seriously sick. COVID-19 vaccines can reduce the risk of people spreading the virus that causes COVID-19. Getting everyone ages 5 years and older vaccinated can help the entire family, including siblings who are not eligible for vaccination and family members who may be at risk of getting very sick if they are infected.

COVID-19 Vaccination

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.

www.cdc.gov

"Reduce the risk" of people spreading the virus and reducing it by a level that justifies mandated vaccination are two different things. They definitely do the former. There haven't been any CDC statements that indicate reaching the threshold for the latter.

 

[correcaminos]

That's a misperception. There are multiple angles, some in dispute and some are not.
The "need" for boosters to bring down deaths to reasonable levels is indeed in dispute. Whether globally we are better off sending out additional doses across the globe instead of using them domestically, whether a booster provides enough additional protection to be "necessary" are indeed topics of debate.

What's not in debate: 1 -- Boosters are safe. 2 -- Boosters do increase protection against infection, hospitalization and death (only the degree is open to debate). 3 -- If we want to ever reach herd immunity, we absolutely need boosters.

You won't find any credible doctor or scientists who will say that boosters are "bad." What's open to debate is only whether they are "necessary."




Yes, there is indeed tons of evidence. It's just a question of degree. Where efficacy against infection drops from 90% to 60%, but protection against severe disease and death drops from 95% to 90%, for example. (multiple studies in Israel can be more precise). There is no question of declining efficacy against death, just a question of degree.

But that raises the secondary point that the anti-boosters are ignoring: If you don't protect against infection, then the disease will continue to circulate in high numbers, you will get more variants, and over time, risk of death and severe disease will increase.





Note the article in 2 months old.... and in that time, the "pro booster" argument has seen the evidence grow in support. As warned by the pro-booster argument, the failure to widely distribute boosters is about to contribute to a significant winter/fall surge. This surge, just starting now, could have been avoided if we had aggressively boosted over the last 2 months.

New enough for you?

Are Vaccine Boosters Widely Needed? Some Federal Advisers Have Misgivings. (Published 2021)

“In our hearts, I think people don’t quite agree with this notion of a booster dose,” said one leading vaccine expert.

www.nytimes.com

Or this

COVID-19 Fact vs. Fiction: Who really needs a booster shot?

More than 25 million people have already received COVID-19 vaccine booster shots, according to the CDC.

www.wpxi.com

Why you came back to harp on this is baffling to me. Honestly and truly. If I were not in a trial I would not be eligible at all. Period.

 

[correcaminos]

"Reduce the risk" of people spreading the virus and reducing it by a level that justifies mandated vaccination are two different things. They definitely do the former. There haven't been any CDC statements that indicate reaching the threshold for the latter.

I'll kindly say your bias is twisting the quote to fit your narrative. I can find numerous quotes from the CDC that refute your position.

 

[havoc315]

New enough for you?

Are Vaccine Boosters Widely Needed? Some Federal Advisers Have Misgivings. (Published 2021)

“In our hearts, I think people don’t quite agree with this notion of a booster dose,” said one leading vaccine expert.

www.nytimes.com

Or this

COVID-19 Fact vs. Fiction: Who really needs a booster shot?

More than 25 million people have already received COVID-19 vaccine booster shots, according to the CDC.

www.wpxi.com

Why you came back to harp on this is baffling to me. Honestly and truly. If I were not in a trial I would not be eligible at all. Period.

Thought you didn't want to get into an endless back and forth, so why do you keep replying, when I stopped replying to you?

Try reading the articles you posted. You will find that they are consistent with every word I posted.
What continues to be debated is "necessity."
There is no question that 1-- the boosters are safe; 2--the boosters are beneficial, and 3--the boosters are necessary if herd immunity is the goal. (those are facts)

And, boosters will be widely approved very shortly. IMO, that was a mistake -- boosters should have been widely approved and aggressively disseminated months ago (that's my opinion); and we are about to pay the price. (this is my hypothesis, which will be proven or disproven over the next 3 months).

 

[correcaminos]

Thought you didn't want to get into an endless back and forth, so why do you keep replying, when I stopped replying to you?

Try reading the articles you posted. You will find that they are consistent with every word I posted.
What continues to be debated is "necessity."
There is no question that 1-- the boosters are safe; 2--the boosters are beneficial, and 3--the boosters are necessary if herd immunity is the goal. (those are facts)

And, boosters will be widely approved very shortly. IMO, that was a mistake -- boosters should have been widely approved and aggressively disseminated months ago (that's my opinion); and we are about to pay the price. (this is my hypothesis, which will be proven or disproven over the next 3 months).

Yes your opinion. I'm saying this publicly, stop being so darn rude to people who try to have a discussion. I came back to show you that even now not all agree since you chose to ignore an article that is still highly valid and to show others facts and opinions of other valid medical people. I will stop now, because you argue simply to argue and try to push your opinions on all which I am not okay with. If Pfizer pushes for vaccines for adults, and teens will not be included I promise you for a while, then we follow it. We still with have Moderna and good luck with that coming anytime soon. I say always follow the science and have been since July of last year. I won't pretend I am better or know it all. I await results. I truly just have issues with people forcing third shots on those who had legit reactions which is how this started. Mostly because being fully vaccinated is still a loving act and they did their part. We have bigger fish to fry with unvaccinated.

 

[DisneyCane]

I'll kindly say your bias is twisting the quote to fit your narrative. I can find numerous quotes from the CDC that refute your position.

Perhaps I am interpreting the quote in a way that fits my narrative as the vague nature of it leaves it open to interpretation. Based upon my interpretation of the quote and other data, I do not feel the level of reduced spread justifies mandatory vaccination. I will fully admit that the necessary threshold is an opinion.

It would be much more helpful if the CDC conducted and published real world efficacy studies against spread. Maybe it is higher than I think it is.