Norway Pavilion Frozen construction - Frozen Ever After ride

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Mike S

Well-Known Member
"People" get the point. There are multiple points, though - depending on your, wait for it, point of view.

I was specifically responding to someone who called the previous ride "inspirational".

That said, "the point" you are trying to make would be better served if you didn't say "Thematically it simply does not make sense". I know that this is a mantra that keeps getting repeated, but it is so intentionally obtuse. There is plenty of connection (ask Norway, the real country - how much their tourism has directly increased due to Frozen for just one example).

You may not think it has enough of a connection, or not like the character connection, etc. - but folks who are pretty much playing dumb in saying "it does not make any sense" in spite of the overwhelming evidence are just using it as rhetoric and just sound like "finger in my ears while I yell" instead of actually having a discussion about it. These dogmatic absolutes around here are getting frightening.
Disney started the "dogmatic absolute" themselves when the park opened and it was stated that characters were restricted to Magic Kingdom. We just want them to live up to it. Yes, M&G's were eventually added but full blown attraction are a more recent phenomenon.
 

FigmentForver96

Well-Known Member
"People" get the point. There are multiple points, though - depending on your, wait for it, point of view.

I was specifically responding to someone who called the previous ride "inspirational".

That said, "the point" you are trying to make would be better served if you didn't say "Thematically it simply does not make sense". I know that this is a mantra that keeps getting repeated, but it is so intentionally obtuse. There is plenty of connection (ask Norway, the real country - how much their tourism has directly increased due to Frozen for just one example).

You may not think it has enough of a connection, or not like the character connection, etc. - but folks who are pretty much playing dumb in saying "it does not make any sense" in spite of the overwhelming evidence are just using it as rhetoric and just sound like "finger in my ears while I yell" instead of actually having a discussion about it. These dogmatic absolutes around here are getting frightening.
It is not about what I think. Being inspired by Norway and being set in Norway are two totally different things. The movie takes place in a fictional land and so even on that front it still does not make sense to be in a land that is meant to showcase the real country of Norway. I made a point earlier and I think it something that get glossed over, we can all be upset by the changes but think what visitors from Norway must feel when they see countries like France and China have cool lands with movies celebrating their culture, and Norway has the latest princess movie slightly inspired by Norway.

Also what a shame for such a good movie to get such a limited space. There literally is room at Magic Kingdom or even Hollywood Studios to build a new land or single ride. Yet they decide to place it in a small corner in a ride with terrible capacity to begin with. So you can throw the thematic portion of the argument out the window and still be left with no way to defend the other half of the problem...Disney was to cheap to build a quality attraction.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Disney started the "dogmatic absolute" themselves when the park opened and it was stated that characters were restricted to Magic Kingdom. We just want them to live up to it. Yes, M&G's were eventually added but full blown attraction are a more recent phenomenon.

#1 - They never said that. Complete fan invention.

#2 - Characters have been in Epcot since it opened in Future World, and since a year or two after they opened in World Showcase.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
#1 - They never said that. Complete fan invention.

#2 - Characters have been in Epcot since it opened in Future World, and since a year or two after they opened in World Showcase.
Watch some of the opening ceremonies then. I know for a fact several have been posted in this very thread that say exactly that and before you say "well, those people don't work for Disney," the lines they spoke were most likely given or approved by Disney.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
It is not about what I think. Being inspired by Norway and being set in Norway are two totally different things. The movie takes place in a fictional land and so even on that front it still does not make sense to be in a land that is meant to showcase the real country of Norway. I made a point earlier and I think it something that get glossed over, we can all be upset by the changes but think what visitors from Norway must feel when they see countries like France and China have cool lands with movies celebrating their culture, and Norway has the latest princess movie slightly inspired by Norway.

I think folks from Norway are just fine - economically at least, as there reportedly was no measurable uptick or reason to believe that the Norway pavillion ever had an impact on tourism, yet Frozen has led to massive increases in tourism to Norway. Given that the country's tourist sites want to tell you all about how connected they are with the film, you can bet that at least they are OK with it representing them in that aspect. (Let's not forget, these were initially "sold" to the participating companies from the participating countries as essentially travel booths to encourage tourism to begin with, not little museums.)

As to general Norwegians who aren't Disney fans at sites like this? They probably aren't that disturbed either - particularly since the ride itself was so esoteric to begin with. There are more actual connections with Norway-specific history (from the author of the original work to the research and design done for the film) with this new ride than the last one, if you really are honest about it. Maelstrom was more about general Scandinavian history with it's Vikings and Trolls.

We have this view of WS as Disney Parks fans of being some bastion of cultural awareness - but in fact, these days, in general, it's teetering on cultural stereotypes. The world is changing (for better or worse) and I think you are going to see more of this happening at WS, for the opposite reasons as you think - because we are entering an age where, no matter how reverent we see it to be, it's going to be considered much less offensive to have a character/film inspired by to represent your country, than building quaint caricatures of what we perceive their culture to be and presenting it as authentic replicas.

To put the shoe on the other foot - imagine that France (the real country) was building a "USA pavilion". If they represented us in a ride the way that we represented Norway in Maelstrom (Vikings, Trolls, Oil Rig), you would have a ride showing the people on the Mayflower, the Salem Witch trials, and a 1970's style factory production line.

How attached would you be to that? How much connection would you have? You might find it amusing, or you might actually find it offensive if they were selling that as what it was like to be an American. I'm not sure it would encourage visitors, either...

Again, don't get me wrong - I loved that dank creepy little dark ride. I'll miss it. But it was not what some are making it out to be - and one can disagree with Frozen without elevating Maelstrom to such lofty heights it really didn't achieve.

Also what a shame for such a good movie to get such a limited space. There literally is room at Magic Kingdom or even Hollywood Studios to build a new land or single ride. Yet they decide to place it in a small corner in a ride with terrible capacity to begin with. So you can throw the thematic portion of the argument out the window and still be left with no way to defend the other half of the problem...Disney was to cheap to build a quality attraction.

See, this is where again - those arguments are not mutually exclusive. We are so damn political on these boards it's honestly starting to frighten me. Because no one wants to have any nuance anymore. No one seems to want to admit that you don't have to be totally on one side or the other of something, that "if you are a real Disney/Parks/Theme Park fan then you must think this way!" thing that is so prevalent at the moment.

I completely agree. I wish Frozen had been given some $400M spectacular ride.

Funny thing is - if they had done that, a good portion of the folks who are using that argument right now - perhaps not you, but a good amount, who would then be mad if Frozen got that much budget/attention. Just like folks complained about not enough Frozen before there was too much Frozen...Frozen is very polarizing to begin with. But since it sounds good, even though they'd really be "Why can't that money go to a CLASSIC Disney film??!!", they are saying it now.

In any case - like I said. I agree. I wish Disney was doing all kinds of stuff and building all kinds of big, immersive rides. But the butthurt over this is just wayyyy overstated - at least SOMETHING new in WS, and to be honest - it sounds like a pretty cool little ride. It's going to have enormous operational issues, no doubt - it's a far from perfect project - but the things folks keep harping on aren't the real problems, because those discussions about how this is going to work would be a lot more interesting than the endlessly repetitive and futile argument that it shouldn't have happened at all.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Watch some of the opening ceremonies then. I know for a fact several have been posted in this very thread that say exactly that and before you say "well, those people don't work for Disney," the lines they spoke were most likely given or approved by Disney.

Most likely...sorry, that's not dogmatic, LOL. Disney never had any such public or written policy, because it wouldn't have been true.

In any case, Space Mickey and Co appeared in Future World within the first year or so, you are talking 30+ years ago. Not long after that, the Character Bus started in WS.

Although on opening day (to speak to my point in the other post) did decidedly have plenty of characters...just not Disney characters.

Here is an example of the increased cultural sensitivity that is going to probably end up eating WS in the end. Even as someone who isn't particularly culturally sensitive personally, I find it shocking that Disney ever did this at WS:

WSC%2BCharacters.JPG


Add a tick to the "Just because it was like that at opening day doesn't mean it should be there forever..." box

epcot-1982-4-Chareen-Stevenson-640x499.jpg


4562298-20480758-thumbnail.jpg



4562298-20480749-thumbnail.jpg
 
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Mike S

Well-Known Member
Most likely...sorry, that's not dogmatic, LOL. Disney never had any such public or written policy, because it wouldn't have been true.

In any case, Space Mickey and Co appeared in Future World within the first year or so, you are talking 30+ years ago. Not long after that, the Character Bus started in WS.

Although on opening day (to speak to my point in the other post) did decidedly have plenty of characters...just not Disney characters.

Here is an example of the increased cultural sensitivity that is going to probably end up eating WS in the end. Even as someone who isn't particularly culturally sensitive personally, I find it shocking that Disney ever did this at WS:

WSC%2BCharacters.JPG


Add a tick to the "Just because it was like that at opening day doesn't mean it should be there forever..." box

epcot-1982-4-Chareen-Stevenson-640x499.jpg


4562298-20480758-thumbnail.jpg



4562298-20480749-thumbnail.jpg
I quoted your line of "dogmatic absolute" because I thought it was silly you took it that far. It was more just a rule of the people designing the park wanting it to be very different from Magic Kingdom (looks like they don't really care about that anymore). I also acknowledged the addition of walk around characters before.
 

aladdin2007

Well-Known Member
It is not about what I think. Being inspired by Norway and being set in Norway are two totally different things. The movie takes place in a fictional land and so even on that front it still does not make sense to be in a land that is meant to showcase the real country of Norway. I made a point earlier and I think it something that get glossed over, we can all be upset by the changes but think what visitors from Norway must feel when they see countries like France and China have cool lands with movies celebrating their culture, and Norway has the latest princess movie slightly inspired by Norway.

Also what a shame for such a good movie to get such a limited space. There literally is room at Magic Kingdom or even Hollywood Studios to build a new land or single ride. Yet they decide to place it in a small corner in a ride with terrible capacity to begin with. So you can throw the thematic portion of the argument out the window and still be left with no way to defend the other half of the problem...Disney was to cheap to build a quality attraction.

I agree with everything you said from beginning to end.....to add to that, Personally I wouldn't have had a problem with Frozen in Norway IF.....it had been a ride set in Norway hosted by the Frozen characters. There was no reason why they couldn't have gone that route just like with the ducks in Mexico. Thats not ideal either I know, but it sure would have been a heck of a lot better than turning the whole thing into the fictional arendelle cartoon with no ounce of a Norwegian theme or name, just some lame girly storybook frozen ever after name, (hurl).......and other than a new cabin structure next door....I am still holding out hope that somehow in someway there is still a Norwegian reflection in its design, but the more they keep talking about it the less I think were going to see anything other than some new Rune in front of the new cabin based on Norway only by name. Im still scared to death of whats to come of the stave church.........
 

sedati

Well-Known Member
I agree with everything you said from beginning to end.....to add to that, Personally I wouldn't have had a problem with Frozen in Norway IF.....it had been a ride set in Norway hosted by the Frozen characters. There was no reason why they couldn't have gone that route just like with the ducks in Mexico. Thats not ideal either I know, but it sure would have been a heck of a lot better than turning the whole thing into the fictional arendelle cartoon with no ounce of a Norwegian theme or name, just some lame girly storybook frozen ever after name, (hurl).......and other than a new cabin structure next door....I am still holding out hope that somehow in someway there is still a Norwegian reflection in its design, but the more they keep talking about it the less I think were going to see anything other than some new Rune in front of the new cabin based on Norway only by name. Im still scared to death of whats to come of the stave church.........

And it's posts like this along with any wdw1974 thread where it goes from fun debate to genuinely worrisome.

It's like a family boasting that they only let their kids eat Froot Loops because they have natural fruit flavor and despise those who eat Frosted Flakes. One might be a smidge better, but you're both eating sugary cereal.
 

FigmentForver96

Well-Known Member
And it's posts like this along with any wdw1974 thread where it goes from fun debate to genuinely worrisome.

It's like a family boasting that they only let their kids eat Froot Loops because they have natural fruit flavor and despise those who eat Frosted Flakes. One might be a smidge better, but you're both eating sugary cereal.
I'm not seeing the comparison?
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
Most likely...sorry, that's not dogmatic, LOL. Disney never had any such public or written policy, because it wouldn't have been true.

In any case, Space Mickey and Co appeared in Future World within the first year or so, you are talking 30+ years ago. Not long after that, the Character Bus started in WS.

Although on opening day (to speak to my point in the other post) did decidedly have plenty of characters...just not Disney characters.

Here is an example of the increased cultural sensitivity that is going to probably end up eating WS in the end. Even as someone who isn't particularly culturally sensitive personally, I find it shocking that Disney ever did this at WS:

WSC%2BCharacters.JPG


Add a tick to the "Just because it was like that at opening day doesn't mean it should be there forever..." box

epcot-1982-4-Chareen-Stevenson-640x499.jpg


4562298-20480758-thumbnail.jpg



4562298-20480749-thumbnail.jpg
I hated that character bus but I never forgot the fact that there were characters throughout EPCOT. And Dreamfinder with Figment was just creepy. I next expected EPCOT to start having Pedobear make his rounds.
 

GhostHost1000

Premium Member
Most likely...sorry, that's not dogmatic, LOL. Disney never had any such public or written policy, because it wouldn't have been true.

In any case, Space Mickey and Co appeared in Future World within the first year or so, you are talking 30+ years ago. Not long after that, the Character Bus started in WS.

Although on opening day (to speak to my point in the other post) did decidedly have plenty of characters...just not Disney characters.

Here is an example of the increased cultural sensitivity that is going to probably end up eating WS in the end. Even as someone who isn't particularly culturally sensitive personally, I find it shocking that Disney ever did this at WS:

WSC%2BCharacters.JPG


Add a tick to the "Just because it was like that at opening day doesn't mean it should be there forever..." box

epcot-1982-4-Chareen-Stevenson-640x499.jpg


4562298-20480758-thumbnail.jpg



4562298-20480749-thumbnail.jpg

Those are just freaking scary
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I dont think there is any true measure of "success or failure" in terms of an attraction

I think it's simply "does it perform its task in the park"

If that task is to be a constant people eater to help with attraction capacity.. it should be about ride counts
If that task is to be a marque draw to the park.. attendance should follow its operation and it should have high scores and ride counts
If that task is to round out the theme or shopping experience.. it should have consistent patron counts, etc

Point is not every attraction need have some 95% percentile wait time to be considered a 'success'. Not every attraction in the rounded out theme park is intended to be a Tower of Terror.. or a World of Disney. The success is rated by the park's overall health, draw, and customer sat.. and you try to find the areas that are neglected or not performing their task.

The thing falls part when you measure and evaluate each on their own, without any context or grander plan. That's where we get the P&L arguments shutting down shops or attractions that simply can't be profitable enough.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
As to general Norwegians who aren't Disney fans at sites like this? They probably aren't that disturbed either - particularly since the ride itself was so esoteric to begin with. There are more actual connections with Norway-specific history (from the author of the original work to the research and design done for the film) with this new ride than the last one, if you really are honest about it. Maelstrom was more about general Scandinavian history with it's Vikings and Trolls.

I clicked the ignored content link.. and now I regret it. Your statements above are categorically full of poop.

WFA making field trips to Norway does not make the Frozen story connected to Norway. The author of the story was a Dane, not Norsk. (who only visited Norway 25+ years after the Snow Queen was published).

Clearly Norway is part of Scandanavia, and the four country's histories and culture are well intertwined. But that isn't some blanket excuse that makes something equal to all.

If I make a play, play some Tchaikovsky music, and set the film in a cold winter where people wear fur... that doesn't make it a film about Russia, nor a film that represents Russian history or culture. Borrowing from Norway does not make the film about Norway -- end of discussion. Anyone who can't grasp that simple concept, needs to go back to school.

As crappy as Malestrom was.. and trust me.. I'm firmly in the 'it sucked' column... it firmly was in the Norweigan column. All this poo'ing on the oil rig scene in the last few pages has been comical. The oil boom is the single largest pillar under the modernization of Norway. It's significance is not just historical, but because the government has taken the approach of it's wealth should benefit all and for the future.. the creation of the oil fund has lead to a solid fiscal security for the entire country. It's the largest pension fund in the world. It represents the fiscal security of the country's future. These concepts don't resonate for americans because we have no such parallel and most probably think its some stupid exxon commercial.

Maelstrom sucked -- but it was very representative of key pieces of the Norweigan story and mindset. The narration alone about ideals and spirit ring so true. They respect history, culture, and morals so much more than many cultures. Just hang around Oslo (heck, just look at pictures) on constitution day and compare what you see there vs what you see from july 4th.

Maelstrom sucked - but it was about Norway.
 
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