WSJ Imagineering Article

[lazyboy97o]

When I read the article it certainly didn't seem to fit Rohde's description of delivering half an attraction and holding the other half hostage until the budget was opened up.

It seemed more like designers have a blue sky vision, they pitch it, it gets scaled down to fit a budget, but they keep hopes alive that they can continue to pitch little elements of the blue sky version whenever they can. Sometimes those little elements get thrown back in, and the budget expands.

Hence "seduction." What Rohde is describing isn't seduction, it's coersion.

He wasn’t talking about an attraction being held hostage. The plan to try to increase the budget was caught and they were forced to cut out a huge chunk of the project.

The seduction is on the designers trying to sneak things back into a project or conceal their true cost with the hope of them being funded. They’re not pulling a fast one and it won’t go unnoticed as in the example he gave.

 

[britain]

He wasn’t talking about an attraction being held hostage. The plan to try to increase the budget was caught and they were forced to cut out a huge chunk of the project.

The seduction is on the designers trying to sneak things back into a project or conceal their true cost with the hope of them being funded. They’re not pulling a fast one and it won’t go unnoticed as in the example he gave.

I see - thanks for the clarification.

 

[HauntedPirate]

So, retrofitting the Adventure ($1.8 billion, if the reporting is to be believed) cost twice as much as the next Wish-class ship will cost to build from scratch ($900 million per a cruise industry report). Now, if the $1 billion being less than half of what it costs to build a new ship is accurate, then we can assume the $900 million is just for the bare bones ship delivered from Meyer Werft.

Holy bejeebers…

 

[HauntedPirate]

Also - coming in under budget can mean “budget was $400 million and we spent $395 million”. It’s a spokesperson’s statement with nothing behind it to back it up.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Even though it was posted above, you can read the full article from the link below. For some strange reason, MSN, reprints/reposts WSJ articles...

MSN

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[MisterPenguin]

 

[BrianLo]

A number of them either left to do their own thing or went to the other side of I-4 (lured in by at least one new major park after Epic within the next few years, possibly at least one more, plus other projects of various size). The best thing Disney has is a questionable licensing commitment in the UAE, plus a few attractions either new or rethemed. Not all of them are as good as the opportunities elsewhere...

I have no idea what you are talking about. If you want work in Florida there’s far more secure work going on at WDW. If you want to participate in a well budgeted foreign park, there’s far more opportunity with Disney. The UK is more desirable location for an anglophone subset, but that’s pulling from Paris resources. Universal may have a half dozen unique projects on the go, Disney has like 30+. Not even including a very clearly bubbling gate for China.

We emphatically know the Florida UC workforce has shrunk in the last few years and WDI has hired many of them. Which isn’t a criticism of UC, that’s naturally what happens when you finish a major gate. UC likely reached their nadir though, people started jumping ship in 2023 as Epic wound down and WDI resumed a hiring spree.

 

[BrianLo]

So, retrofitting the Adventure ($1.8 billion, if the reporting is to be believed) cost twice as much as the next Wish-class ship will cost to build from scratch ($900 million per a cruise industry report). Now, if the $1 billion being less than half of what it costs to build a new ship is accurate, then we can assume the $900 million is just for the bare bones ship delivered from Meyer Werft.

Holy bejeebers…

The figures being quoted are the entire ship build, including finishings. The entire project is financed together with builder credit. Standard for the industry.

Just to clarify that the wish vessels would have cost 900-1100 all in. Not that amount of capital plus another unknown amount.

DCL Adeventure is 208K gross tonnes and a Wish vessel 144k. Like you, the amount all in certainly questions if it was really worth it, but apparently these ultra large vessels do run on really high margins for Royal. That said, I think it’s entirely a one and done.

For more comparison new Oasis class cost 1.45B and are 238k gross tonnes. Icon+ 2B and are 248k tonnes.

 

[Basil of Baker Street]

The age of current WDI staff matters less than the framework with which they are given to create and their point of reference when designing new projects.

The older Imagineers were ones who were trained by the prior generation and encouraged by prior management to view theme parks as their own creative medium and to understand the principles of design and staging that make for good theatrics, regardless of the medium and the human reaction to those things.

You don't become a great theme park designer simply by studying other theme parks. You become a great designer by studying art and human history, theater, film, animation, colour theory, psychology, nature etc. The former can lead to failed attempts at understanding and replicating past success.

You don't get a ride as good as Pirates of the Caribbean by trying imitate Pirates of the Caribbean (as many have). You certainly don't get a great ride by starting from a narrow point like "build roller coaster based on IP" or "we need to overlay an existing space with a newer thing based on this IP"

The technical sophistication and enthusiasm is there, but it won't be optimized without strong leadership to guide, decide and want the best out of their product and employees.

Age matters less if they are properly mentored. That is my concern.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

I see the whole article as a thinly disguised promotional piece.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I have no idea what you are talking about. If you want work in Florida there’s far more secure work going on at WDW. If you want to participate in a well budgeted foreign park, there’s far more opportunity with Disney. The UK is more desirable location for an anglophone subset, but that’s pulling from Paris resources. Universal may have a half dozen unique projects on the go, Disney has like 30+. Not even including a very clearly bubbling gate for China.

We emphatically know the Florida UC workforce has shrunk in the last few years and WDI has hired many of them. Which isn’t a criticism of UC, that’s naturally what happens when you finish a major gate. UC likely reached their nadir though, people started jumping ship in 2023 as Epic wound down and WDI resumed a hiring spree.

Universal Studios United Kingdom isn’t really pulling from Paris as Universal doesn’t yet have a presence in Europe. Outside of Hollywood, which basically rejected the relocation to Orlando, Universal Creative also has much smaller field offices and still does the bulk of design in Florida regardless of location. It’ll be later, more for fabrication and installation, that the park will start pulling from established European resources.

 

[HauntedPirate]

The figures being quoted are the entire ship build, including finishings. The entire project is financed together with builder credit. Standard for the industry.

Just to clarify that the wish vessels would have cost 900-1100 all in. Not that amount of capital plus another unknown amount.

DCL Adeventure is 208K gross tonnes and a Wish vessel 144k. Like you, the amount all in certainly questions if it was really worth it, but apparently these ultra large vessels do run on really high margins for Royal. That said, I think it’s entirely a one and done.

For more comparison new Oasis class cost 1.45B and are 238k gross tonnes. Icon+ 2B and are 248k tonnes.

If the $900 mil for a Wish class is the (more or less) final cost, then the article is wrong about the $1 billion being less than half what it costs to build a ship from scratch.

 

[BrianLo]

If the $900 mil for a Wish class is the (more or less) final cost, then the article is wrong about the $1 billion being less than half what it costs to build a ship from scratch.

Oh! I see what you are saying. The Article is absolutely wrong. I wonder if they were trying to comp that figure against Royal’s Icon Class, that’s how my brain at first glossed over it. As in “if Disney tried to white paper new-build the DCL Adventure from scratch, it would have cost them at least 2B to do so”.

The Wish class emphatically does not cost over 2 billion a ship. There are many, many, many other sources that say otherwise.

 

[HMF]

Hundreds of millions of dollars is hardly “pennies”.

Especially with the fact that pennies are in fact no longer a thing.

 

[HMF]

He wasn’t talking about an attraction being held hostage. The plan to try to increase the budget was caught and they were forced to cut out a huge chunk of the project.

The seduction is on the designers trying to sneak things back into a project or conceal their true cost with the hope of them being funded. They’re not pulling a fast one and it won’t go unnoticed as in the example he gave.

And lets not pretend Rohde is not above selling out to management occasionally such as the area they are fixing (over fixing in my opinion) in DAK right now as well as that oil rig looking thing towering above harbour boulevard in Anaheim California or even Avatar.

 

[lazyboy97o]

And lets not pretend Rohde is not above selling out to management occasionally such as the area they are fixing (over fixing in my opinion) in DAK right now as well as that oil rig looking thing towering above harbour boulevard in Anaheim California or even Avatar.

You have a very romantic, but not very accurate, understanding of how WED Enterprises or Walt Disney Imagineering have ever operated. “Selling out” is the job.

 

[HMF]

You have a very romantic, but not very accurate, understanding of how WED Enterprises or Walt Disney Imagineering have ever operated. “Selling out” is the job.

Maybe, but do we really think Dino-Rama is the pinnacle of Joe Rohde's career?

 

[James Alucobond]

Maybe, but do we really think Dino-Rama is the pinnacle of Joe Rohde's career?

Do you think he thinks so? It's a concession due to budget constraints. Selling out is not the same as making the best of the limited resources at hand or working within constraints.

 

[HMF]

Do you think he thinks so? It's a concession due to budget constraints. Selling out is not the same as making the best of the limited resources at hand or working within constraints.

That like Paradise Pier in DCA really should have probably killed off during the development phase.

 

[brettf22]

Hundreds of millions of dollars is hardly “pennies”.

Apologies if my hyperbole was too … hyperbolic