With 47 Sq. Miles, Why Do You Think Anything Needs To Be Closed.

Wendy Pleakley

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't argue that in the least. That is one of the meanings of "and it still worked". Many of the attractions that people seem to call out the loudest about are strictly personal dislikes. Other people do like them, many in fact, they just don't for whatever reason they have. So, we should deprive others of things that they like because we, individually, don't like a particular thing. Sorry, that is just plain self centered. Now if Disney feels that the attraction is a bust, no one goes to it, it's collecting cobwebs and isn't a classic show, then there is no reason to keep it going as long as they have something to replace it with. Otherwise just add to the park. Once an attraction is gone it is usually gone forever. Case in point... I personally hated Toad, but, many still loved it. I would never have asked for it to be shut down because I didn't like it. But, that is what happens with most things that we talk about on the boards.

I forgot to add that the pre-show monitors were also showing trivia questions about ABC shows that had been off the air for many years. They couldn't even update that?

The whole attraction just gave me a bad vibe. It felt like they had abandoned the attraction and just left it running. It would be like running Dumbo after the paint had faded white and the metal beams rusted.

It was a case of "bad show".

I agree about not wanting to close something out of personal dislike, but for me the attraction was at the point where it reflected poorly on Disney to continue running it, in its' state at the time.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I forgot to add that the pre-show monitors were also showing trivia questions about ABC shows that had been off the air for many years. They couldn't even update that?

The whole attraction just gave me a bad vibe. It felt like they had abandoned the attraction and just left it running. It would be like running Dumbo after the paint had faded white and the metal beams rusted.

It was a case of "bad show".

I agree about not wanting to close something out of personal dislike, but for me the attraction was at the point where it reflected poorly on Disney to continue running it, in its' state at the time.
Well, it did become that because so many people misunderstood what was happening and they were telling people to not go in there.

I was sitting next to the smoking area in Epcot one time when I heard this guy telling new people not to go to Mission: Space because all there is are modules full of vomit and how they were sick for three days after they rode it. The new people thanked them for the information and decided to not ride it at all. Oh, yea, they also said that the green side was as bad as the orange side. That stuff happens so when people stopped going they just stopped doing anything with it. Counterproductive and not right, but way bother. That's how life works sometimes. With SD it wasn't a huge attraction and didn't have enough positive draw to overcome the smack talk. So, it wasn't working and needed to be stopped, but, there is no excuse for not putting something new and different in it's place, they could even have put the old sound show back.
 

Flippin'Flounder

Well-Known Member
The point of this was that there is no reason to close anything. Add to it. They have an area that is huge all they need to do is build more not take away. Many people do not see the problems that you seem to think there are.
You asked for my opinion, and I gave it. Yeah, many people don't agree with me, but you failed to mention that there are many people who do.
 

Wdw62114

Well-Known Member
I hate the fumes from the speedway. They're pretty obnoxious if the air is still. My kids have gone on much faster and fun go karts at home and have no interest in what the speedway offers. They do however love stitch's great escape and want to go on that every single opportunity that they get.

I'm there for them mostly, so I let them make the call on what they want to go on.
Wow the fumes really must be bad to cause your kids to love Stitches Great Escape:p
 

Cowboy Steve

Well-Known Member
One of the many considerations when any park talks expansion is the infrastructure. There are a whole lot of issues to consider when planning out an expansion or new attraction that the public never considers... utilities, drainage, run off, etc. Every square foot of land you cover creates a whole new series of engineering challenges lol. Central Florida is wet! You dig a hole, you get water. Thus the utilidor concept. Planning for where to route your storm drains isn't as easy as just routing it to the nearest body of water - most states require you to control storm drains (or have a way to isolate them) to protect the environment from a HAZMAT incident, like a fuel spill or run off from a large loss fire.

At the amusement park I worked at, the park was situated on land classified as wetlands... and for every square foot of wetlands developed on the property, they were required to buy 2 square feet of wetlands elsewhere and set it aside as protected.

Sometimes it makes sense to remove existing attractions whose footprint no longer justifies their use, practicality, or cost. And it gives them an opportunity to update existing infrastructure in an area that may be way outdated. There are a lot of costs associated with an expansion vs re-purposing existing space. Additional maintenance, additional staffing, additional wardrobes, where are these new employees coming from? Where are the going to park? Is the current employee support departments able to handle the additional staffing? Space is just part of the equation.
 
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Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
You asked for my opinion, and I gave it. Yeah, many people don't agree with me, but you failed to mention that there are many people who do.
Seriously? I also didn't say that you were the only one that saw it the way you do. My exact words were... "Many people do not see the problems that you seem to think there are." It did not say All people except you do not etc. That pretty much says that others feel the way you do as well. Besides, unless the ratio is about 1000 to 1 against it, it doesn't mean that it should be closed down. It means you and they should just walk past it if you don't want to see it and let those that do experience it for whatever it's worth.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I am OK with a dated and less popular attraction being replaced by something new and better. It is frustrating to see perfectly good attractions close and not have them replaced with anything. To answer the question posed, I think it is necessary to close things for reasons other than safety. Although WDW has nearly unlimited space that isn't the only factor. Every attraction that exists has a cost to operate and maintain. The older the attraction usually the more maintenance needed, especially on attractions with a lot of mechanical and electric components. I think this is why areas like Tom Sayer Island and the tree house at MK which aren't exactly super popular stay around. It's relatively low tech and less expensive to maintain and operate them than some other rides. Same goes for something like Muppet vision at DHS. Relatively cheap to maintain and operate. There is some sort of cost benefit analysis that should happen. Low popularity combined with high cost = closed and replaced. The exception is a ride like CoP with extreme nostalgia going for it. I know that's not a popular opinion, but you can't just keep everything unless you want to keep opening more gates or charge $200 for tickets.

Another reason could be for theming. If a park or land within a park gets a new theme sometimes rides or attractions need to be replaced. DHS right now comes to mind.

There is no excuse for the vacant and stripped down pavilions currently at EPCOT. That's just poor show IMHO. Someone taking the cost benefit analysis to the extreme.
 

Flippin'Flounder

Well-Known Member
Seriously? I also didn't say that you were the only one that saw it the way you do. My exact words were... "Many people do not see the problems that you seem to think there are." It did not say All people except you do not etc. That pretty much says that others feel the way you do as well. Besides, unless the ratio is about 1000 to 1 against it, it doesn't mean that it should be closed down. It means you and they should just walk past it if you don't want to see it and let those that do experience it for whatever it's worth.
You can't just "walk past" the speedway. Every time you pass by it you get hit with the fumes.

And one of my issues with Kali is that I want a great raft ride in Animal Kingdom, and that's not going to happen if it's still there.

Did you even read my original post? Or did you just see that I disagreed with you and went ranting?
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
You can't just "walk past" the speedway. Every time you pass by it you get hit with the fumes.

And one of my issues with Kali is that I want a great raft ride in Animal Kingdom, and that's not going to happen if it's still there.

Did you even read my original post? Or did you just see that I disagreed with you and went ranting?
You'll live! Those fumes have been around since 1955 in Disneyland and since 1972 in WDW and everyone has survived. Kids love it, you don't so I'm assuming that you are grown up so that makes sense. That isn't an excuse to prevent others from enjoying it though. I wouldn't object to them changing to electric cars with motor sounds for the kids, but, to close it, no! Upgrade, yes!

You may not like Kali, but others do, so unless something strange happens that is what you have. And everything that you posted as what I assume are the reasons why something should be closed are strictly you personal opinion and not enough to warrant closure just because you don't care for it. It is just you that thinks that AK need a "Great" raft ride without saying why it isn't great. Again you personal opinion, not a reason for it being closed.

Why is it that whenever I offer a different viewpoint then I am considered ranting and whatever you said is solid logic and shouldn't be questioned. Yes, I disagree with you, but, apparently for completely different reasons then you think.
 

Flippin'Flounder

Well-Known Member
You'll live! Those fumes have been around since 1955 in Disneyland and since 1972 in WDW and everyone has survived. Kids love it, you don't so I'm assuming that you are grown up so that makes sense. That isn't an excuse to prevent others from enjoying it though. I wouldn't object to them changing to electric cars with motor sounds for the kids, but, to close it, no! Upgrade, yes!
I will live, but it's still gross. Kids can have a lot more fun go-karting locally without paying 100 dollars to get in though.
You may not like Kali, but others do, so unless something strange happens that is what you have. And everything that you posted as what I assume are the reasons why something should be closed are strictly you personal opinion and not enough to warrant closure just because you don't care for it. It is just you that thinks that AK need a "Great" raft ride without saying why it isn't great. Again you personal opinion, not a reason for it being closed.
918a2af54d7328d9d53aacbd4c737e37.jpg
Kali-River-Rapids-008.jpg


That would've been a great raft ride. I'm sure people love Kali, but it could've been amazing...
 

mouse_luv

Well-Known Member
Tomorrowland Speedway
-MK is running out of space, and it takes up a large amount.
-Ruins the atmosphere of Tomorrowland and Fantasyland.
-The fumes are terrible.

Kali River Rapids
-It's a terrible raft ride, and they aren't going to have 2 in the same park, so unless it closes, it's all we'll have
-There's a very large area of land blocked by it that could be used for expansion.

Dinorama
-Sound pollution
-It's the only spot available for a Dinoland expansion.

As I've said before in other threads: The Tomorrowland Speedway could easily stay and be rethemed to Sugar Rush Racers with a Wreck It Ralph theme and lose the smelly gasoline mower engines. Simple.
 

copcarguyp71

Well-Known Member
Nothing should be closed or unused.

YES...this is the key. I don't think people want things closed and boarded up (the way Disney has a way of doing I.E. - Golden Horseshoe. River Country, Odyssey, Imagination, WOL, Etc) I think people are more likely thinking that some things if unloved and not updated are going to be left that way then why not close them and allow the Imagineers a new opportunity to wow us...at least that is the way I see it.
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
One of the many considerations when any park talks expansion is the infrastructure. There are a whole lot of issues to consider when planning out an expansion or new attraction that the public never considers... utilities, drainage, run off, etc. Every square foot of land you cover creates a whole new series of engineering challenges lol. Central Florida is wet! You dig a hole, you get water. Thus the utilidor concept. Planning for where to route your storm drains isn't as easy as just routing it to the nearest body of water - most states require you to control storm drains (or have a way to isolate them) to protect the environment from a HAZMAT incident, like a fuel spill or run off from a large loss fire.

At the amusement park I worked at, the park was situated on land classified as wetlands... and for every square foot of wetlands developed on the property, they were required to buy 2 square feet of wetlands elsewhere and set it aside as protected.

Sometimes it makes sense to remove existing attractions whose footprint no longer justifies their use, practicality, or cost. And it gives them an opportunity to update existing infrastructure in an area that may be way outdated. There are a lot of costs associated with an expansion vs re-purposing existing space. Additional maintenance, additional staffing, additional wardrobes, where are these new employees coming from? Where are the going to park? Is the current employee support departments able to handle the additional staffing? Space is just part of the equation.

Well said. Looking that permit for the new water ride at Typhoon Lagoon as an example, there is a 113 page engineering report for storm water control, and this is a relatively simple project.
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
I hate those "what should be closed" threads. Nothing should ever be closed unless it is dangerous or no longer works at all. Seriously, It shouldn't even be in our fantasy. What would you like to see added should be the question!
Seriously.... Having 47 square miles means nothing. Of those miles how many can they truly use? How many are near a park? Reality is a lot of the area is swampy and would fall under the Federal governments wetlands rules and regulations so it is in fact untouchable. What people don't realize is that the federal government has a lot more restirctions in place today than it did 50 years ago when Disney started building the Magic Kingdom and EPCOT.... Back then you owned land you were free to fill it in if it was swampy, drain it if you wanted do whatever you wanted.... That's not the case today. If Disney tried to drain a swamp today or reclaim some swamp land by filling it in you could be sure that the government would come in and smack them down hard and then force them to re do the swamp to its former glory.

Aside from your crazy thought that they have all the land they could ever need... Why should they keep an attraction or ride that no one uses or which is used by a very small number of people... They are trying to make money and you don't make money by keeping rides no one wants but which will cost you money to maintain and operate.
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
I hate the fumes from the speedway. They're pretty obnoxious if the air is still. My kids have gone on much faster and fun go karts at home and have no interest in what the speedway offers. They do however love stitch's great escape and want to go on that every single opportunity that they get.

I'm there for them mostly, so I let them make the call on what they want to go on.

I used to be a huge fan of the speedway.... when I was a kid... But you are spot on... in its current form it needs to go. My 10 year old can drive electric go karts at an indoor track where we live and zip around at 50mph in air conditioned comfort.... She doesn't even care about the speedway anymore and only wants to stay away from it because of the fumes. If Disney insists on keeping it they should at the very least use better gas engines than what are on them now. My lawnmower goes faster and has less fumes than those things... In fact using electric cars would be much better.
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Seriously.... Having 47 square miles means nothing. Of those miles how many can they truly use? How many are near a park? Reality is a lot of the area is swampy and would fall under the Federal governments wetlands rules and regulations so it is in fact untouchable. What people don't realize is that the federal government has a lot more restirctions in place today than it did 50 years ago when Disney started building the Magic Kingdom and EPCOT.... Back then you owned land you were free to fill it in if it was swampy, drain it if you wanted do whatever you wanted.... That's not the case today. If Disney tried to drain a swamp today or reclaim some swamp land by filling it in you could be sure that the government would come in and smack them down hard and then force them to re do the swamp to its former glory.

Aside from your crazy thought that they have all the land they could ever need... Why should they keep an attraction or ride that no one uses or which is used by a very small number of people... They are trying to make money and you don't make money by keeping rides no one wants but which will cost you money to maintain and operate.

Actually, Disney does build on wetlands, they just buy land in other places to offset what they are using. With that said, there are still a lot of challenges with that and a lot more bureaucracy to go through, but they can do it when they really want to.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Seriously.... Having 47 square miles means nothing. Of those miles how many can they truly use? How many are near a park? Reality is a lot of the area is swampy and would fall under the Federal governments wetlands rules and regulations so it is in fact untouchable. What people don't realize is that the federal government has a lot more restirctions in place today than it did 50 years ago when Disney started building the Magic Kingdom and EPCOT.... Back then you owned land you were free to fill it in if it was swampy, drain it if you wanted do whatever you wanted.... That's not the case today. If Disney tried to drain a swamp today or reclaim some swamp land by filling it in you could be sure that the government would come in and smack them down hard and then force them to re do the swamp to its former glory.

Aside from your crazy thought that they have all the land they could ever need... Why should they keep an attraction or ride that no one uses or which is used by a very small number of people... They are trying to make money and you don't make money by keeping rides no one wants but which will cost you money to maintain and operate.
Good question! Now ask yourself how many they managed to get in DL in a space smaller then just MK. They have a lot of land that is earmarked for conservation. You know, that place where the alligators live! That's fine and that is the way it should be, however, there is a lot of land that they can use or re-identify if they wish. They just don't wish.

I believe I included the "no one wants" or "doesn't work" in my original discussion. I'm referring to the constant questioning of people that can only go by their own personal likes and dislikes about what should be removed or not. Only Disney knows the extent of popularity of something unless someone with a whole bunch of time on their hands just stands there and counts heads all day and then makes a post here. Otherwise, it isn't based on logic or fairness. Just personal justification. However, even if they didn't close anything, they still have a lot of space to do whatever they want. It may take money and work to do it, but, it can be done without the loss of anything that even a few might enjoy. That is the overall draw of the parks. Something for everyone.
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
There's many reasons to replace attractions instead of building new ones...some were already discussed on this thread.

There's cast members who need to fill the roles, maintenance and upkeep, planning and design, laying it out where guests still have access to it, etc.

Then there's new attractions which may be thematically similar to older attractions. Mission to Mars and Mission:Space are thematically similar, why have both? Add to that Alien Encounter and Stitch's Great Escape...would you have both of these in the park (that's rhetorical as I'm sure most people know the answer)

Then there's the cohesiveness of the lands they are added to....just adding attractions everywhere can affect the cohesiveness of the area.

Then there's more transportation needs to get guests around the super-sized park you created.
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
Good question! Now ask yourself how many they managed to get in DL in a space smaller then just MK. They have a lot of land that is earmarked for conservation. You know, that place where the alligators live! That's fine and that is the way it should be, however, there is a lot of land that they can use or re-identify if they wish. They just don't wish.

I believe I included the "no one wants" or "doesn't work" in my original discussion. I'm referring to the constant questioning of people that can only go by their own personal likes and dislikes about what should be removed or not. Only Disney knows the extent of popularity of something unless someone with a whole bunch of time on their hands just stands there and counts heads all day and then makes a post here. Otherwise, it isn't based on logic or fairness. Just personal justification. However, even if they didn't close anything, they still have a lot of space to do whatever they want. It may take money and work to do it, but, it can be done without the loss of anything that even a few might enjoy. That is the overall draw of the parks. Something for everyone.
Re read what you just wrote.... "It may take money and work to do it..." That's the problem. If they enlarge the park beyond the area it already resides in it will take money and work... Money doesn't come from thin are it requires an increase in ticket prices to cover so ask yourself if you think Disney needs to raise its prices even more... If you think they don't need to then you are also saying they shouldn't expand because you can't expand without paying for the expansion.
 

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