why doubling dumbo won't necessarily mean shorter lines

CaptainWinter

Active Member
Original Poster
Hi all -- Here's a little armchair queue engineering.

Doubling Dumbo (as per the FLE) sounds like a good idea, since the ride is a must-do with many little ones, and families get stuck in the line for a long time. I think it was about 60 minutes when I was at MK this past June. But here's the problem. The Dumbo queue must start to act as a deterrent when it gets too long -- once it hits, say, 60 minutes, people are no longer willing to stand in it, so it stays stuck at 60, give or take. Doubling the ride will double the number of people who get on the ride, for sure, but the queue might *still* fill up to 60 minutes, and then deter. In other words, the amount of time people are inherently willing to spend on Dumbo might be fixed. So waits won't necessarily get any shorter.

Thoughts?
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
You are assuming quite a bit that the shorter line will double the amount of people wanting to ride it. A fact that would be absolutely necessary for your theory to be true. While I am sure that more people will now ride Dumbo thanks to a shorter line I feel just as many people will still walk right by this attraction regardless of the length of the wait.
 

Evil Genius

Well-Known Member
You also have to add in the variable of this "que-less' que WDI is touting right now. I'll be curious to see what effect, if any, this has on wait times.
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
You also have to add in the variable of this "que-less' que WDI is touting right now. I'll be curious to see what effect, if any, this has on wait times.
I do not think it will do anything for the actual wait time. That is a hard and fast math equation that no amount of theming can alter. However, I do think it will help the "perceived" wait time quite a bit.
 

Evil Genius

Well-Known Member
I do not think it will do anything for the actual wait time. That is a hard and fast math equation that no amount of theming can alter. However, I do think it will help the "perceived" wait time quite a bit.


That's really what I was getting at.

It may in fact increase the actual overall wait time due to the "distractions" little ones will have while waiting for Dumbo. Thus drawing more to the ride.

Again I think this is goint to be an interresting aspect once it's added.
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
That's really what I was getting at.

It may in fact increase the actual overall wait time due to the "distractions" little ones will have while waiting for Dumbo. Thus drawing more to the ride.

Again I think this is goint to be an interresting aspect once it's added.
I am looking forward to seeing it in action as well.
 

CaptainWinter

Active Member
Original Poster
You are assuming quite a bit that the shorter line will double the amount of people wanting to ride it. A fact that would be absolutely necessary for your theory to be true. While I am sure that more people will now ride Dumbo thanks to a shorter line I feel just as many people will still walk right by this attraction regardless of the length of the wait.

Well, that's the assumption the new attraction will test, if built. If the number of people who go on the ride is fixed, then waits will certainly be shorter. But if there are currently a lot of guests who pass on the ride given the size of the queue, the waits might not diminish.
 

Lee

Adventurer
Dumbo won't actually be "queueless".
It has a very large, indoor "interactive" queue which will be entered from the far right side.
On the far left is the Fastpass entrance.

Net result....maybe...shorter lines.
 

Hoop Raeb

Formerly known as...
So what I get out of that comment is that the queue will be just like Space Mountain wih dfferent games to keep you busy but you'll still have to be in a queue.
 

Lee

Adventurer
Well....depends on your definition of herded cattle.
They will wait outside to get inside. Inside the queue twists through interactive areas before getting to the load area.
Fastpass skips the interactive area completely, and waits in a smaller area inside near load.
 

DVCOwner

A Long Time DVC Member
There is also the staffing factor. I have been to this ride when one person was loading, unloading and running the controls. The turn over from one group to the other was very slow. Other times there is two people or more working the ride and the trun over time is very fast; allowing more people per hour to ride the ride. I think this happens on a lot of rides accounting for long lines even with light crowds.
 

David S.

Member
Dumbo won't actually be "queueless".
It has a very large, indoor "interactive" queue which will be entered from the far right side.
On the far left is the Fastpass entrance.

Net result....maybe...shorter lines.

So "Dueling Dumbos" will be part of the Fastpass system? As a Fastpass fan, this makes me happy! Thanks for the info! :)

(my apologies if it is old news about it having FP - if it is, I must have missed that thread. I'm glad the new "nextgen" queue concept is apparently NOT replacing FP, as Kevin Yee speculated that it might, in one of his columns.)
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
Doubling the ride will double the number of people who get on the ride, for sure, but the queue might *still* fill up to 60 minutes, and then deter. In other words, the amount of time people are inherently willing to spend on Dumbo might be fixed. So waits won't necessarily get any shorter.

Thoughts?
I think you're right on the money. Queue length is a major determinant for the decision to ride an attraction. If it's short, guests will ride, or make a return ride.


Wizard said:
Even if it has NO effect whatsoever on the line length, it will double the amount of people who get to experience the attraction.
I think you're right on the money.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Hi all -- Here's a little armchair queue engineering.

Doubling Dumbo (as per the FLE) sounds like a good idea, since the ride is a must-do with many little ones, and families get stuck in the line for a long time. I think it was about 60 minutes when I was at MK this past June. But here's the problem. The Dumbo queue must start to act as a deterrent when it gets too long -- once it hits, say, 60 minutes, people are no longer willing to stand in it, so it stays stuck at 60, give or take. Doubling the ride will double the number of people who get on the ride, for sure, but the queue might *still* fill up to 60 minutes, and then deter. In other words, the amount of time people are inherently willing to spend on Dumbo might be fixed. So waits won't necessarily get any shorter.

Thoughts?

I do not think it will do anything for the actual wait time. That is a hard and fast math equation that no amount of theming can alter. However, I do think it will help the "perceived" wait time quite a bit.

Dumbo won't actually be "queueless".
It has a very large, indoor "interactive" queue which will be entered from the far right side.
On the far left is the Fastpass entrance.

Net result....maybe...shorter lines.

Looking at this from an operations standpoint, the original poster presents an interesting hypothesis, and that in turn results in some questions that need to be asked.

Q: Currently, does everyone that wants to ride Dumbo on any given day queue up for the attraction?
A: I assume that the answer is no, I have to believe that some people are discouraged by the lines. While queuing for the attraction is often dictated by children, you have to assume that the occasional adult wields some power over their children.

Q: What is the most amount of time that the people that chose not to queue in the current system would be willing to wait?
A: For me, I believe that anything over a 35 minute wait is unnecessary, and at that point Fastpass should become an option. I use 35 minutes because 35-40 minutes is the shortest return window for Fastpass.


Q: How much time does Fastpass add to the Standby queue?
A: If Fastpasses are distributed at 6% of hourly capacity every 5 minutes, this number is quite substantial. As the day continues, you can assume that one spinner would be devoted entirely to Fastpass. That's more or less what is done at Space Mountain.

Q: Is the total number of people that want to ride Dumbo but don't (for whatever reason) equal to the total number of people that ride it on any given day.
A: I'm going to say no. This would mean that capacity for the ride has doubled, but demand has not doubled. The average wait for the ride will become shorter, because a portion of those waits will be Fastpass. It's entirely conceivable that the Standby wait will get longer under this current system, but the overall waits for the attraction (when Fastpass is considered) will shorten.

When I get more time to actually put up a detailed explanation of how this would work, I'll post that as well. In the mean time, does anyone know the current hourly capacity of Dumbo?
 

CaptainWinter

Active Member
Original Poster
Thanks, everyone, for considering this ubernerdy question.

Q: What is the most amount of time that the people that chose not to queue in the current system would be willing to wait?
A: For me, I believe that anything over a 35 minute wait is unnecessary, and at that point Fastpass should become an option. I use 35 minutes because 35-40 minutes is the shortest return window for Fastpass.

Fair enough for a rational adult. But...when it comes to Dumbo, you have to consider the decision is often made with a child tugging on your arm, which ups the ante. :^) The line needs to be pretty long to choose both to skip the attraction and disappoint the kid.

Q: Is the total number of people that want to ride Dumbo but don't (for whatever reason) equal to the total number of people that ride it on any given day.
A: I'm going to say no. This would mean that capacity for the ride has doubled, but demand has not doubled. The average wait for the ride will become shorter, because a portion of those waits will be Fastpass. It's entirely conceivable that the Standby wait will get longer under this current system, but the overall waits for the attraction (when Fastpass is considered) will shorten.

That's a nice, clear way to frame the problem. I suspect you're right, that the demand is not actually double what the current ridership is, but we shall see. Others have remarked that the hourly capacity in part depends on the size and efficiency of the crew running the attraction, so how Dumbo will be staffed has a bearing as well.

Of course Fantasyland could just be given over to Dumboland -- wall-to-wall Dumbo spinners -- and then everyone wins, right?
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
I apparently have nothing but time to kill tonight.

I've heard the following numbers thrown around, but I'm not sure they're correct.

Disney distributes 6% of a ride's hourly capacity every 5 minute interval. Meaning the following would be true for aride with an hourly capacity of 1000
9:00-9:05: They will distribute up to 60 fastpasses for 9:40-10:40
9:05-9:10: They will distribute up to 60 fastpasses for 9:45-10:45
In the event that it takes more than 5 minutes to distribute the 60 fastpasses, the remaining fastpasses will not be distributed and the return window will be bumped up. As I said previously, the 6% # seems high but I don't think the official formula is publicly available.

Per Mouseplanet the capacity of Dumbo is 600 per hour. I'll assume that while that is variable, it will be doubled in the new version.
 

JohnLocke

Member
While shortening the wait time is probably one reason for double Dumbos, I really think it helps FL in an even better way. Moving it out of the center of FL should help give guests a little more elbow room, it's probably the most crowded area of the park as it is right now.
 

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