WDW during a Recession / Economic Downturn

nickys

Premium Member
I was around for post 9/11. WDW immediately froze hiring, cut hours for employees, cut park hours, cut shows & entertainment, closed restaurants, closed French Quarter for 6 months and took a lot of buildings out of service elsewhere, eliminated early entry. And there were serious considerations to closing parks.

You can go back to old posts on the DIS and look from like October 2001 - Spring 2002. I mostly read the News & Rumors board, so that's a place to start, but there would be plenty on the main parks, resorts, and dining boards as well.

What I think is coming now is a combo of post 9/11 and Financial Crisis. I expect air travel to be heavily affected for multiple reasons, and layoffs within the educated class to be deep and long lasting, with economic spillover effects that sound like paranoia and insanity. Given how "lean" corporations, including Disney have optimized themselves into, there isn't going to be easy fat to cut.
Also, when the next recession hit, I know of some DVC members who bought hundreds, even thousands, of points on the resale market for as little as $10 per point. As the recession hit, owners were desperate to sell.

Edit: I think that applied more to the 2008 recession than the one you were talking about.
 

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
I am sticking with my prediction.

Even after the mainstream media declares "RESESSION!!!" to try to get under the skin of (you know who), there will still be a lot of folks with money that will visit WDW and purchase LLPPs as usual.
Some may just choose to live day to day. A report last year uncovered 45% of families annually take on debt to finance their WDW vacations.
 

StarWarsGirl

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
How much of the 10 years parks plan will suffer though?
Accountant here. Fixed assets (like ride construction, buildings, etc) is one of my main areas of focus. My guess is no, and here's why.

There's a couple of differences between the 2000s recession and now, the biggest being that Disney as a company is much, much bigger. Between 2009 and 2018, Disney's growth was dramatic. Larger companies are more able to weather recessions.

Second is leadership. During the Eisner era, Eisner was not willing to spend money, especially on the parks. Looking back, to me, this made him ineffective as a leader because he looked more towards short term results than long term goals. He was definitely not looking at long-term plans, and this reflected in the parks. This was reflected later in the parks; DCA they didn't know how to fix, so they threw a cheaper ToT there. AK got the pre-made carnival rides. WDW basically got Soarin' and Expedition Everest as the only major additions between 2000 and 2010. Iger, when he took over, definitely took them as a company willing to spend money and invest, even if we largely didn't see this impact at WDW. As a result, the company mindset has changed from one of "how can we make profits this quarter" to "how can we ensure we're growing". This kind of stagnated with Chapek, but the projects announced show that they're switching strategies. To me, seeing construction stop is the result of a panicked leader worried about the immediate bottom line instead of long-term goals.

Disney has to do a lot of planning for these projects financially, including how to get investment funding, cost scenarios, etc. Because of the thing we all hate, paid Lightning Lanes, Disney can also prove directly how much a ride is making. They can estimate how much it will drive up attendance, but also how many more lightning lanes they can sell. Gives them more of an estimate on payback periods, even though we as guests most definitely hate it. The only thing I would expect to cancel these projects is if costs significantly increase, but not for projects where ground is already broken. I can pretty much guarantee they also have contingency plans, like for Villains land (this is what we can do in scenario A, scenario B, etc).

A lot of projects during covid were cancelled, but Covid is basically an anomaly year*. For any business, what happened during the should not be used as a basis for the future; it was wayyyy out of the realm of normal. We did get cancelled and delayed projects, but existing projects had delays because of shutdowns and supply chain issues, and then they ultimately cost more because we just saw substantial cost increases overall during those years. Hence why Epcot didn't get everything promised; revenue streams were down, costs were up...it was just chaos. But the projects that were cancelled were the ones that hadn' started construction.

So the answer... basically I'd expect anything officially announced to continue, although for Villains Land, I think they don't officially know what attractions are being done and are waiting until closer to the date to announce exact details. But since they are doing initial work, it's not getting cancelled entirely. I do not expect what happened in the 2000s to repeat with the stagnation in construction because of the changes in leadership and because of Disney's larger size. At most, if revenue suffers, some projects might get delayed, but I don't really expect that either based on recent attendance. I'd expect to see more of an impact on day-to-day operations than long-term goals.

*Note that this includes businesses that had increased during Covid. Also an anomaly. JoAnne's is the latest example of a business that saw an uptick, got overconfident, and went kaputt.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
I was around for post 9/11. WDW immediately froze hiring, cut hours for employees, cut park hours, cut shows & entertainment, closed restaurants, closed French Quarter for 6 months and took a lot of buildings out of service elsewhere, eliminated early entry. And there were serious considerations to closing parks.

You can go back to old posts on the DIS and look from like October 2001 - Spring 2002. I mostly read the News & Rumors board, so that's a place to start, but there would be plenty on the main parks, resorts, and dining boards as well.

What I think is coming now is a combo of post 9/11 and Financial Crisis. I expect air travel to be heavily affected for multiple reasons, and layoffs within the educated class to be deep and long lasting, with economic spillover effects that sound like paranoia and insanity. Given how "lean" corporations, including Disney have optimized themselves into, there isn't going to be easy fat to cut.
That downturn happened before September…

What happened was that the 99 dot.com crash was “delayed” in wdw because some many had booked longterm for the millennium event…which was the largest promo that Disney has ever had…and the most successful. So after that ended on 1/1/2001…there was a void in bookings that cratered the property in the spring of that year. There was low occupancy and declining attendance long before the events of the fall…it just intensified

The ambient crowds in the parks…now…look to me more like the level of 2002-03 or 2009-10…and that means there’s a huge issue.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Also, when the next recession hit, I know of some DVC members who bought hundreds, even thousands, of points on the resale market for as little as $10 per point. As the recession hit, owners were desperate to sell.

Edit: I think that applied more to the 2008 recession than the one you were talking about.
There was a glut of dvc buying at various times from 2000-2015. I highly doubt that happens anymore because you’d be stupid to pay these prices unless your intent is just to waste money…

Though $10 a point should have NEVER been allowed. That was the point of ROFR and could be why it’s bloated and the program is not as solid as it was after it was established in the late 90s/early 00s
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
A lot of projects during covid were cancelled, but Covid is basically an anomaly year*. For any business, what happened during the should not be used as a basis for the future; it was wayyyy out of the realm of normal. We did get cancelled and delayed projects, but existing projects had delays because of shutdowns and supply chain issues, and then they ultimately cost more because we just saw substantial cost increases overall during those years.
Some building suppliers are starting to go back to very short term estimates because they cannot predict and control their own costs.

The ride systems Disney utilizes are often manufactured in Canada or Europe. Even if they don’t outright cancel a project, having to pay an extra 25% is going to be a hit.
 

Disstevefan1

Well-Known Member
Some may just choose to live day to day. A report last year uncovered 45% of families annually take on debt to finance their WDW vacations.
In my opinion, the folks taking on debt to finance a WDW vacation would do this “recession” or not. My post just wanted to point out there is no recession for folks with money.
 

mkt

When a paradise is lost go straight to Disney™
Premium Member
To those of you that lived through those eras, what sort of things have generally happened during those times?
So many cutbacks. CM's stopped getting overtime, and full time CMs were getting minimum hours to be able to reach the amount of hours needed to be considered full time.

Early park admission for resort guests was canceled and replaced with character meet and greets in resort lobbies.
 

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
In my opinion, the folks taking on debt to finance a WDW vacation would do this “recession” or not. My post just wanted to point out there is no recession for folks with money.
Yes that is true. A savvy guy in my area during the 2008 recession snapped up condos on the cheap in 09-10' and resold them several years later at a nice profit. When many sufffer it can also be opportunity for some
 

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
So many cutbacks. CM's stopped getting overtime, and full time CMs were getting minimum hours to be able to reach the amount of hours needed to be considered full time.

Early park admission for resort guests was canceled and replaced with character meet and greets in resort lobbies.
Nice to be unionized to get guaranteed 32 hours a week. For the non union staff you can get cut bare to the bone.
 

mkt

When a paradise is lost go straight to Disney™
Premium Member
Nice to be unionized to get guaranteed 32 hours a week. For the non union staff you can get cut bare to the bone.
Not just that, but their labor counsel determining what might run them afoul of the law even for non-union staff.
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
Nice to be unionized to get guaranteed 32 hours a week. For the non union staff you can get cut bare to the bone.
Pros and cons to everything, I was working for a non-union casino in 2007 when the housing crisis happened and we cut everyone’s hours fairly equally, full time went from 5 days a week to 3-4 days, part time went from 3-4 days a week to 1-2 days, it sucked for everyone but everyone also kept their job and benefits, including the least senior person on our staff.

The union casinos kept their most senior people at 32+ hours a week and simply laid off the bottom half of their staff based on seniority.

Both option sucked, and I could see arguments for either being the better option to take, but at least our way didn’t make anyone unemployed. I also see how many could say it was unfair for the most senior people to take a loss to save the least senior people though.
 

THEMEPARKPIONEER

Well-Known Member
Recession was great at WDW, seriously instead of removing and replacing they just refurbished and refreshed what they had and added a couple things here and there. Once the recession was over they literally just completely replaced attractions and let all the old stuff fall apart to its demise even the stuff that got so much love and a Lee lease on life during the recession.
 

mkt

When a paradise is lost go straight to Disney™
Premium Member
I also remember driving down palm parkway and there were so many hotels that were stopped halfway through construction, and it stayed like that for years.
IIRC, after the 2008 recession, there were some completed and unsold houses that were demolished to keep them from becoming a home for squatters.
 

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
Pros and cons to everything, I was working for a non-union casino in 2007 when the housing crisis happened and we cut everyone’s hours fairly equally, full time went from 5 days a week to 3-4 days, part time went from 3-4 days a week to 1-2 days, it sucked for everyone but everyone also kept their job and benefits, including the least senior person on our staff.

The union casinos kept their most senior people at 32+ hours a week and simply laid off the bottom half of their staff based on seniority.

Both option sucked, and I could see arguments for either being the better option to take, but at least our way didn’t make anyone unemployed. I also see how many could say it was unfair for the most senior people to take a loss to save the least senior people though.
In regards to Vegas didn't those lavish hotels and very upscale shopping malls open during the height of the recession 09-10'? Now that's a huge gamble but then again it is Sin City rolling the dice!
 

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
So many cutbacks. CM's stopped getting overtime, and full time CMs were getting minimum hours to be able to reach the amount of hours needed to be considered full time.

Early park admission for resort guests was canceled and replaced with character meet and greets in resort lobbies.
If your hours are cut one can always drive for ( ie Uber ). Uber started by two guys who were stuck in a snowstorm in Paris and the idea of calling for a ride using a mobile phone. The rest is history.
 

Disstevefan1

Well-Known Member
So many cutbacks. CM's stopped getting overtime, and full time CMs were getting minimum hours to be able to reach the amount of hours needed to be considered full time.

Early park admission for resort guests was canceled and replaced with character meet and greets in resort lobbies.
This has nothing to do with recession/economic downturns, this is just Disney being a piece of cr@p and taking advantage of both their cast members and guests.
 

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