Was Happily Ever After to much for WDW?

[Vinnie Mac]

Show me the numbers, then. I remember this being a fairly big talking point when HEA debuted, and how the projection mapping was used in place of more pyro because it's way, way cheaper.

Even if our best estimate is that ROE and Harmonious have about the same amount of pyro, stretch that same amount over 20 minutes instead of 12 minutes with an included "napping section" and you end up with Harmonious feeling much more devoid of pyro than ROE.

Also lol at the irony of all the people who loathed the globe segment of ROE because "there's no pyro" lapping up Harmonious even though, when added up, Harmonious has you watching screens with no pyro for more of the show's runtime than the globe segment.

If I find some compiled statistics I'll happily do so and in the mean time, I expect you to do the exact same.

Just because people say HEA had this/that so that it's "cheaper" doesn't mean it's true. People say HarmonioUS is supposed to be a cheap alternative but anybody with common sense and an idea of how much those barges cost knows otherwise. HEA in its prime is very much so more expensive than Wishes and it is quite obvious when you see the two shows side by side. Even from memory of seeing it in person, I vividly remember HEA having more pyro.

Well if we're playing the pyro average throughout the show game then HarmonioUS definitely has ROE beat lol. Illuminations has you watching screens as well, less visible screens at that. Have seen that show several times and never knew what the hell I was looking at on the globe until I saw some slightly recent video a couple of years ago showing what the screens were displaying.

I love/loved ROE but lying about it to prove a point makes no sense. If you love it, why lie about it? Why don't you love it for what it is and not what you think it is?

 

[Vinnie Mac]

And to answer the general question of this thread, I would say yes and no.

Yes Happily Ever After was too far because it was the best nighttime show that I've ever seen them do and having something that everyone loved (from the old and grumpy Disney fans to the newer fans and the casual public) leads to VERY high expectations for future shows. Disney still blows me away with attractions and theme parks areas. Just when I thought they couldn't get better than Expedition Everest, they hit me with Pandora. Just when I thought they couldn't do better than that, they hit me with Galaxy's Edge.

I'm hoping they can do the same for the nighttime shows because they've done that to me with Wishes to HEA and ROE to HarmonioUS (in a way).

I feel like the expectations will make any issue with any show they do in the future seem a thousand times worse than what it actually is. For example, Enchantment. Enchantment would have been amazing to a pre-HEA WDW. Do I think it would have gotten the same level of positive feedback HEA did? Probably not, but imo it would have been relatively similar. But Enchantment unfortunately has to battle against the giant of the Disney nighttime shows. I can't say with 100% confidence that it's losing that battle but I won't say it's winning it either (will share full opinion on that show some other time).

At the same time, I feel like Disney can and (eventually) will do better than HEA. But right now just feels like a weird "cooldown" period for them if that makes sense.

 

[gerarar]

One show does Tinker Bell justice and builds up to her, the other shoves her in at the end with little to no build up.

(HEA vs DE btw if it’s not obvious lol)

 

[gerarar]

Show me the numbers, then. I remember this being a fairly big talking point when HEA debuted, and how the projection mapping was used in place of more pyro because it's way, way cheaper.

Even if our best estimate is that ROE and Harmonious have about the same amount of pyro, stretch that same amount over 20 minutes instead of 12 minutes with an included "napping section" and you end up with Harmonious feeling much more devoid of pyro than ROE.

Also lol at the irony of all the people who loathed the globe segment of ROE because "there's no pyro" lapping up Harmonious even though, when added up, Harmonious has you watching screens with no pyro for more of the show's runtime than the globe segment.

HEA, when it debuted in May 2017, had roughly ~788 fireworks. This increased throughout the years and peaked at its prime around late 2018/early 2019. From there it reduced and got slashed down to its final number of ~644 in September 2021.
Source for numbers (someone actually counted them out):



According to this, Wishes had ~683 fireworks.

‘Wishes’ – Fast Facts | Walt Disney World News

web.archive.org

Disney Enchantment debuted last month with roughly ~682 fireworks. So looks like Wishes and DE have the same amount, of course this changes from supplies to misfires to pyro cuts being made daily.

So going strictly by counts,
HEA > DE >=< Wishes

 

[Vinnie Mac]

HEA, when it debuted in May 2017, had roughly ~788 fireworks. This increased throughout the years and peaked at its prime around late 2018/early 2019. From there it reduced and got slashed down to its final number of ~644 in September 2021.
Source for numbers (someone actually counted them out):



According to this, Wishes had ~683 fireworks.

‘Wishes’ – Fast Facts | Walt Disney World News

web.archive.org

Disney Enchantment debuted last month with roughly ~682 fireworks. So looks like Wishes and DE have the same amount, of course this changes from supplies to misfires to pyro cuts being made daily.

So going strictly by counts,
HEA > DE >=< Wishes

So statistically, HEA in its prime is better than both Wishes and Enchantment. Post-pandemic HEA is inferior to Enchantment and Wishes but Wishes and DE are at about similar levels. I remember saying DE would be like Wishes. Looks like I was right on the money (at least in this aspect.... )

 

[gerarar]

So statistically, HEA in its prime is better than both Wishes and Enchantment. Post-pandemic HEA is inferior to Enchantment and Wishes but Wishes and DE are at about similar levels.

Well yes, but we don’t know the true counts (yet) of Wishes from when it first debuted to its final showing in May 2017, so it’s hard to compare it precisely to DE (and even HEA) lol. That 683 number for Wishes could’ve been anytime or just an average.

But one thing for sure is that HEA excels at using castle/FL pyro and custom fireworks. DE kinda keeps the same but regresses at it the same time.

 

[wutisgood]

Of course disney would literally cheap out on fireworks for the same show to save a few bucks after increasing prices. Another 100 fireworks is prob way less than you think it is in cost. What a greedy pos company.

 

[Vinnie Mac]

But one thing for sure is that HEA excels at using castle/FL pyro and custom fireworks. DE kinda keeps the same but regresses at it the same time.

Yeah. To me DE is lateral move from HEA with a slight dip.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Well, interesting. I didn't think someone would actually count the fireworks shells! I'll admit I only saw HEA a few times ever but Wishes dozens, if not over 100 times. I also wonder if HEA felt like it had less pyro to me than Wishes because so much of the show is drawing your focus to the projection mapping?

ROE was also a victim of heavy pyro shortening, especially in its final years. Seeing the show on NYE (excluding the tags, of course) was a very different show vs. watching it on a light crowd night.

Just because people say HEA had this/that so that it's "cheaper" doesn't mean it's true. People say HarmonioUS is supposed to be a cheap alternative but anybody with common sense and an idea of how much those barges cost knows otherwise. HEA in its prime is very much so more expensive than Wishes and it is quite obvious when you see the two shows side by side. Even from memory of seeing it in person, I vividly remember HEA having more pyro.

The cost of the barges is an upfront cost but not a not a daily cost, so that is sort of irrelevant to the debate.

Well if we're playing the pyro average throughout the show game then HarmonioUS definitely has ROE beat lol. Illuminations has you watching screens as well, less visible screens at that. Have seen that show several times and never knew what the hell I was looking at on the globe until I saw some slightly recent video a couple of years ago showing what the screens were displaying.

I love/loved ROE but lying about it to prove a point makes no sense. If you love it, why lie about it? Why don't you love it for what it is and not what you think it is?

So I'm bored (obviously) and timed the amount of runtime in both shows where there is no pyro:

ROE: approx. 7 out of 12 minutes (58%)
Harmonious: approx. 12 out of 20 minutes (60%) - though its a little harder to count because Harmonious will do frequent quick pyro flourishes up to 30 seconds apart.

So I guess they're actually about the same. I'm not going to deny that the Harmonious barges are far more interesting and beautiful to look at than the globe, but a big difference is that by the end of the first segment of Harmonious, you've pretty much seen everything the show is going to do, whereas ROE saved some surprises for along the way.

(adding up the actual pyro shells is too difficult, but if someone wants to do it...)

 

[Bullseye1967]

If I find some compiled statistics I'll happily do so and in the mean time, I expect you to do the exact same.

Just because people say HEA had this/that so that it's "cheaper" doesn't mean it's true. People say HarmonioUS is supposed to be a cheap alternative but anybody with common sense and an idea of how much those barges cost knows otherwise. HEA in its prime is very much so more expensive than Wishes and it is quite obvious when you see the two shows side by side. Even from memory of seeing it in person, I vividly remember HEA having more pyro.

Well if we're playing the pyro average throughout the show game then HarmonioUS definitely has ROE beat lol. Illuminations has you watching screens as well, less visible screens at that. Have seen that show several times and never knew what the hell I was looking at on the globe until I saw some slightly recent video a couple of years ago showing what the screens were displaying.

I love/loved ROE but lying about it to prove a point makes no sense. If you love it, why lie about it? Why don't you love it for what it is and not what you think it is?

Or we could ask someone who would actually know. @marni1971 can you chime in on this please, and yes I know the amount of pyro was dropped at some point.

 

[THEMEPARKPIONEER]

I noticed while watching Disney’s enchantment that night on bald mountain needs some voiceover, some quotes, that’s what it’s lacking, Wishes and HEA both had that in their villain scenes. Maybe in the unknown part could use it as well because it stretches way to long. I think that would make a bid difference.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

I also wonder if HEA felt like it had less pyro to me than Wishes because so much of the show is drawing your focus to the projection mapping?

This was one of my two complaints about HEA. I felt too drawn to watching "the movie", and I didn't appreciate the fireworks. I can say, though, that watching HEA in November 2017 and the MVMCP fireworks on the same trip both from the Fort beach, HEA was noticeably more impressive from that distance. Just counting the number of shells doesn't capture how high and large some of the HEA shells were. It was noticeably better than an upcharge show from the previous generation.

 

[Vinnie Mac]

The cost of the barges is an upfront cost but not a not a daily cost, so that is sort of irrelevant to the debate.

You and I have very different ideas of what the word "irrelevant " means... Maintenance cost exist and the pyro, electrical mechanics and plumbing aren't cheap.

 

[Vinnie Mac]

Well, interesting. I didn't think someone would but a big difference is that by the end of the first segment of Harmonious, you've pretty much seen everything the show is going to do, whereas ROE saved some surprises for along the way.

I heavily disagree with this but I guess that's another discussion for another time.

(adding up the actual pyro shells is too difficult, but if someone wants to do it...)

Happily. Give me a couple of days if that.

 

[Vinnie Mac]

Or we could ask someone who would actually know. @marni1971 can you chime in on this please, and yes I know the amount of pyro was dropped at some point.

No need, I can count. I have eyes and I'd say I'm average in the intelligence field. Thanks though

 

[Tom Morrow]

You and I have very different ideas of what the word "irrelevant " means... Maintenance cost exist and the pyro, electrical mechanics and plumbing aren't cheap.

Well, yes, but these are pretty minor compared to the cost of the shells. Though it's most likely true that the Harmonious barges are the most expensive pyro equipment to maintain.

 

[Vinnie Mac]

I DID IT! I FREAKING DID IT!

I counted all the shells (all that I could at least) for HarmonioUS and Illuminations: Reflections of Earth. Was this probably the worst use of my time today? Absolutely. Will this benefit me or my future? Absolutely not. Do I feel ashamed for what I have done here? NOPE! Anyway, let's get to it.

(DISCLAIMER: This is a very rough count and is no way official. I counted with my own eyes using multiple videos both on YouTube and from my own phone camera with different angles to count from. These numbers will either be 100% spot on or extremely incorrect.)

So Illuminations: Reflections of Earth contains about 678 shells (1678 if we are counting the 1000 points of light finale which I absolutely did not count individually but did assume was at least 1000 shells which I read somewhere that it actually is).

HarmonioUS contains about 1,220 shells (1,008 excluding the segment where the pyro shoots from out of the arms).