Universal Studios new disability pass

[Chi84]

You are mixing and matching and using things out of context.

The theatre example was to illustrate that you can’t force a disabled person to take an alt program… even under the guise of discounts. Not an elaboration on documentation.

Its from the section on right to participate and the lead-in is “Individuals with disabilities may not be required to accept special "benefits" if they choose not to do so.”

Restrooms are a finite scenario because the design standards have already explicitly defined what reasonable accommodation is and what the venue must do.

The discussion on waits is not relevant to the discussion quoted.

But don’t you think an argument can be made along the following lines?

Disney provides a system for patrons to access rides without waiting in line, but charges for the system. It will provide that system free as an accommodation to persons who are unable to stand in lines due to a disability but asks for documentation. The disabled person is not forced to provide documentation and may choose instead to purchase the service. The access is the same whether or not the person provides the documentation.

I’m not saying it’s what should or will happen, but I can foresee the argument being made.

 

[lazyboy97o]

But don’t you think an argument can be made along the following lines?

Disney provides a system for patrons to access rides without waiting in line, but charges for the system. It will provide that system free as an accommodation to persons who are unable to stand in lines due to a disability but asks for documentation. The disabled person is not forced to provide documentation and may choose instead to purchase the service. The access is the same whether or not the person provides the documentation.

I’m not saying it’s what should or will happen, but I can foresee the argument being made.

This is where the distinctions between line skipping systems and virtual queues would be important. Disney’s line skipping service costs thousands of dollars a day. Their cheaper virtual queue offerings do not guarantee availability of attraction access and can impose delays in access.

The illustrations are also not really clear on the nature of the discounts, but seem to be just be general discounts. They don’t suggest that the discounts are on additional services that would be more accommodating. In assembly seating like a theater or sports venue, wheelchair spaces are supposed to be vertically and horizontally dispersed. This is a challenge because the rake (angle) of the seating tends to not align with mobile access, particularly in more contemporary stadium style seating arrangements. This is further complicated because there is not a specific definition of dispersion. Go to many movie theaters and all of the wheelchair spaces are all grouped together. This is generally allowed because the theaters charge general admission and the total number of spaces is low, so the cost in terms of space and money to provide a different location for a seat or two doesn’t make sense.

That sort of grouped seating becomes much more difficult to figure out when you’re dealing with variable pricing operations where different seats have a different price. Imagine you’re building a smaller sports venue with stadium seating and you want to try and only offer wheelchair spaces down at ground/field level so you don’t have to build elevators or ramps. These are premium spaces so you decide to offer them at a discount to those with disabilities. This can still be a problem because you‘re pushing people towards a premium offering and do not really have an accommodation that matches your nose-bleed offerings in terms of price and inquiry. Even if the wheelchair spaces were dispersed among different price zones and offered at a discount with documentation, there would still be an issue with not also offering the spaces without a discount to those who do not wish to provide documentation.

 

[Chi84]

This is where the distinctions between line skipping systems and virtual queues would be important. Disney’s line skipping service costs thousands of dollars a day. Their cheaper virtual queue offerings do not guarantee availability of attraction access and can impose delays in access.

The illustrations are also not really clear on the nature of the discounts, but seem to be just be general discounts. They don’t suggest that the discounts are on additional services that would be more accommodating. In assembly seating like a theater or sports venue, wheelchair spaces are supposed to be vertically and horizontally dispersed. This is a challenge because the rake (angle) of the seating tends to not align with mobile access, particularly in more contemporary stadium style seating arrangements. This is further complicated because there is not a specific definition of dispersion. Go to many movie theaters and all of the wheelchair spaces are all grouped together. This is generally allowed because the theaters charge general admission and the total number of spaces is low, so the cost in terms of space and money to provide a different location for a seat or two doesn’t make sense.

That sort of grouped seating becomes much more difficult to figure out when you’re dealing with variable pricing operations where different seats have a different price. Imagine you’re building a smaller sports venue with stadium seating and you want to try and only offer wheelchair spaces down at ground/field level so you don’t have to build elevators or ramps. These are premium spaces so you decide to offer them at a discount to those with disabilities. This can still be a problem because you‘re pushing people towards a premium offering and do not really have an accommodation that matches your nose-bleed offerings in terms of price and inquiry. Even if the wheelchair spaces were dispersed among different price zones and offered at a discount with documentation, there would still be an issue with not also offering the spaces without a discount to those who do not wish to provide documentation.

I think that’s where the element of business model comes into play. What did you make of the discussion of that element by the court in A.L. v Walt Disney World?

 

[Confidential]

They do if they have a passport or if they had a driver's license before the age of 18.

Not old enough to drive no passport, now what? I said I'm not giving my daughters medical or photo. Last, children does not have photo ID. You want your child medical info or iep and photo placed on a website not affiliated with Universal your choice. Universal does not accept responsibility for this company it is who they are using to say you qualify, they are not Dr. Or certified to say what is a condition. You put your 10 year old photo up there and their medical condition. This is a sensitive issue and Universal need a better way,peroid.

 

[Confidential]

They do if they have a passport or if they had a driver's license before the age of 18.

Not old enough to get a lic and no passport, what does that have to do with giving a private company your child medical information and photo id. A child do not have photo ID. I parent should not have to go that far, just bring a medical document to the park where you purchase tickets for review.

 

[Tom Morrow]

I remember when most theme parks/amusement parks required anyone with an annual/season pass to also have their picture on the pass, including kids. Nobody cried fowl then, why now?

 

[monykalyn]

I think a business can ask for documentation if a person asks for accommodation in excess of what the ADA explicitly requires. For example, the ADA covers wheelchair ramps and service dogs, so a business can’t require documentation for those accommodations.

But this is a new area where the law may still be developing.

The patron has no burden of proof and no obligation to provide evidence of the need.

need for accommodation and what accommodation would be necessary)

The theme parks accomodate guests who walk up and buy tickets without any reservations. They should be able to do the same with someone who needs an accommodation.

Accommodations are made. If you need beyond those then you need to demonstrate why, so business can determine what works for you.
Example: elevators provided for those who cannot do stairs. Now say you have “severe anxiety” and cannot ride in elevator with other people-why shouldn’t you have to provide documentation to why you need this extra accommodation?

Lengthy wait times is not considered denial of access, even if there is a condition for which one cannot wait beyond a certain length of time.

The discussion on waits is not relevant to the discussion quoted.

But wait times ARE the whole point. Even someone with need for accommodation for bathroom issues should surely be able to walk a 5 minute line, ride the attraction and get off without issues. If the line is 45 minutes long THEN the extra accommodation may be necessary.

On the Disney board several people have told their experiences. Like here lots of griping whining without actually going through the process. Vast majority have had better experiences and once you have your 3rd party case number and UO number you are good to go-no more explaining every visit to frontline TM why you need your pass (although you may need to stop to activate it). Also it appears that the 3rd party form has changed a bit with guests feedback (offering wider range of responses to accommodate more issues). Also appears it’s not random TMs calling to discuss what your needs are but someone from a “disability” team who may have more training in evaluating accommodations needed. In a few cases the accommodations granted have been MORE than what the person has had in the past.

Business needs to provide accommodations but it doesn’t mean you’ll get the accommodations you want.

My adult daughter has disability issues, has a handicap placard that she only uses on “bad” days (and only recently used it for one of those days and was grateful she had it-something she’s resisted greatly before). She’s a mid 20’s pretty woman and her issues aren’t visible. But I’ve seen the pain she’s been in if she does too much. She’s used the DAS at Disney only a handful of times (and by that I mean like literally only 5 times, not trips), it did make a difference in pain level at end of day but she hates using it. For her using the free FP was good enough. Going to a paid FP yeah-that’s different. Suspect Disney will see how Uni does with this new iteration and wouldn’t be surprised if they follow suit.

 

[flynnibus]

But wait times ARE the whole point.

No they are not for the discussion i was having - which is on the topic of requiring a person provide evidence, the screening that process involves and it’s legality under the ada

It was not a discussion of if an accommodation was suitable or reasonable — or a discussion of the accommodation itself.

 

[flynnibus]

I don’t know if I ever provided a link to this case, but it helps in understanding the elements of a cause of action under the ADA. There are several elements that need to be established before a violation is found.

https://cases.justia.com/federal/district-courts/florida/flmdce/6:2014cv01544/302613/345/0.pdf?ts=1592903971

Didn’t that case go on next to appellate court level?

 

[Chi84]

Didn’t that case go on next to appellate court level?

It did - sorry I accidentally sent the district court decision.

https://media.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/files/202012720.pdf

This is the one I previously gave the cite for - 469 F.Supp3d 1280.

 

[mkt]

Not old enough to get a lic and no passport, what does that have to do with giving a private company your child medical information and photo id. A child do not have photo ID. I parent should not have to go that far, just bring a medical document to the park where you purchase tickets for review.

My child has a passport book and passport card

 

[Dis Dragon]

I presented documentation, and the medical professionals who work with IBCCES viewed it as valid and stated I can't wait more than 10 minutes in a line and need frequent restroom access due to my disability.

When I presented my card and case number at Universal, they gave me a gold accessibility card. The annoying thing is that I have to do this every two weeks, vs every 60 days for Disney.

I just visited UO on 8/30 and they refused to grant an accessibility card for the same reason, IBCCES validated my documentation. I'm amazed you got that, I spoke with 2 different guest services people and they parroted the same thing about partnering with attractions and a crew member would walk me back in line after I left it... Made no sense to me for climbing over a ton of people and then displacing them again to return - while my party twiddled their thumbs? I have no idea who engineered this as an accommodation that would provide a modicum of guest satisfaction.

Well I'm glad you got approved.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Well that IS odd. I thought the whole point was that if IBCCES says yes, then they give you the pass, no questions asked.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Well that IS odd. I thought the whole point was that if IBCCES says yes, then they give you the pass, no questions asked.

You were already told this and tried to spin it as a positive.

 

[Tom Morrow]

You were already told this and tried to spin it as a positive.

Where? It IS a positive IMO IF Universal doesn't contradict what the IBCCES people already determined.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Where? It IS a positive IMO IF Universal doesn't contradict what the IBCCES people already determined.

Pages 3 and 4.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

We went to DL Paris last week and didn’t qualify for the pass anymore, we’ve gotten the disability pass our 3 previous trips but they’ve changed what qualifies and my GFs heart condition no longer does.

Unless you have a physical disability that prevents you from standing in line (and possibly disabilities like autism) I wouldn’t expect to get it. They did recommend the nearly $200 a day skip the line pass as an alternative though.

Fortunately it wasn’t too busy so we survived without it and still had a lot of fun.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Pages 3 and 4.

But that was under the assumption that Universal wouldn't say no if IBCCES already said yes. I never said anything implying that it would be okay for Universal to contract their call.

 

[lazyboy97o]

But that was under the assumption that Universal wouldn't say no if IBCCES already said yes. I never said anything implying that it would be okay for Universal to contract their call.

You asked what makes this different than Six Flags. This is the big thing that makes it different.

 

[Tom Morrow]

You asked what makes this different than Six Flags. This is the big thing that makes it different.

Well if anyone mentioned that Universal denied them a pass after OBCCES already said yes prior to this page, then I must have missed it.