'Touch-to-Pay' RFID devices to roll out to many locations tomorrow

danlb_2000

danlb_2000

Premium Member
cjkeating said:
I think everyone is being a little bit over the top about getting tracked by the RFID chips. Unless Disney are going to supply the higher quality (expensive) RFID chips in the Magic Bands they are not going to be activated within more than a few metres - MAX - of a reader, more likely less than 50cm. Even then to track you as you are walking freely around will require obtrusive readers that cover walkways etc. So far we have seen no evidence of this other than the exit trial that was done at MK than could be installed into the entrance/exit gates of the park.

I can't see Disney getting much more information from the bands than is available from many guests already by tracking a credit card enabled KTTW card/advance booking information linked to a hotel room. All it is doing is making the data gathering easier for them for a greater number of guests.
Click to expand...

We know from the FCC application that the band has an active 2.4 Ghz transmitter in it as well as passive UHF and HF RFID tags. 2.4 Ghz RFID can have a range over of over 100m.
 
R

rangerbob

Well-Known Member
Fort Wilderness Campground isn't on the list that is enabled already. I used it there 2 weeks ago. No bands just yet just the KTTK cards.
 
icecreamrules

icecreamrules

Active Member
s8film40 said:
Like I said I would hope and expect that they have some kind of security features. I wouldn't think proximity is so much a security feature but more of an accuracy thing so it doesn't pick up the wrong card. My understanding of RFID is that the card it self is merely a transponder, range would be determined by the level of power from the reader. So someone looking to "read" someone else's card would simply adjust the power setting. Once the information is obtained it is actually relatively easy for it to be copied to another "fake" card and then used, even if only $50 at a a time it is of value to some criminals. Not to mention that card also allows access to the room.
Click to expand...
Disney has changed the pin code policy for 'touch to pay' payments already. All 'touch to pay' purchases on a Key to the World Resort ID card now require a PIN code. Previously, only purchases over $50 required a PIN code to be entered.​
 
C

cougboyjb

New Member
Corey P said:
Just a thought. You can buy 2.4 ghz signal jammers wonder what would happen if someone wants to cause some choas and set a few up in WDW??? LOL> You can also just use an over powered 2.4 Ghz device to over power Disney's transmitters etc. I would have to think for a while about all this but I'm sure for not a lot of money you could cause some fun for Disney.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the lap bars on Splash Mountain!
 
ratherbeinwdw

ratherbeinwdw

Well-Known Member
cjkeating said:
I think everyone is being a little bit over the top about getting tracked by the RFID chips. Unless Disney are going to supply the higher quality (expensive) RFID chips in the Magic Bands they are not going to be activated within more than a few metres - MAX - of a reader, more likely less than 50cm. Even then to track you as you are walking freely around will require obtrusive readers that cover walkways etc. So far we have seen no evidence of this other than the exit trial that was done at MK than could be installed into the entrance/exit gates of the park.

I can't see Disney getting much more information from the bands than is available from many guests already by tracking a credit card enabled KTTW card/advance booking information linked to a hotel room. All it is doing is making the data gathering easier for them for a greater number of guests.
Click to expand...
You need to read the user agreements. There are two, you must agree to when reserving a room. I read them in their totality and everyone needs to do the same before they make up their minds on this one way or the other. They do tell you that your RFID can be read as you are walking by. The agreements are interesting. I know most people just check the boxes and don't bother to read.
There are some "could happens" at the end. I know they have to protect themselves, but as I said, it's interesting. There's nothing you haven't agreed to before.
You are right in that all that is on the chip is an ID number. I think the thing of concern, would be if you lost your band or card and someone used it before you could report it. However, if they do require the PIN for all purchases, that would stop that. I actually had to go ahead and pick a pin for everyone in my party last night when I did online check-in. I was going to use cash only or debit, but it wouldn't let me complete the online without picking a PIN. That was even after I didn't tie my cc to my account.
 
bgraham34

bgraham34

Well-Known Member
cjkeating said:
I think everyone is being a little bit over the top about getting tracked by the RFID chips. Unless Disney are going to supply the higher quality (expensive) RFID chips in the Magic Bands they are not going to be activated within more than a few metres - MAX - of a reader, more likely less than 50cm. Even then to track you as you are walking freely around will require obtrusive readers that cover walkways etc. So far we have seen no evidence of this other than the exit trial that was done at MK than could be installed into the entrance/exit gates of the park.

I can't see Disney getting much more information from the bands than is available from many guests already by tracking a credit card enabled KTTW card/advance booking information linked to a hotel room. All it is doing is making the data gathering easier for them for a greater number of guests.
Click to expand...

I dont know why so many people think you can't be tracked with RFID. It all depends on the type of RFID Disney is going to use. My company now is looking to track high end Merchandise by RFID and nothing I mean nothing needs to be 3 feet away to be read. We can know if a package moved a fraction of an inch just be setting an alarm on that particle RFID ID.

Here is an article telling you the distance that can track RFID.

http://www.rfidjournal.com/expert/entry/9503
 
muteki

muteki

Well-Known Member
bgraham34 said:
I dont know why so many people think you can't be tracked with RFID. It all depends on the type of RFID Disney is going to use. My company now is looking to track high end Merchandise by RFID and nothing I mean nothing needs to be 3 feet away to be read. We can know if a package moved a fraction of an inch just be setting an alarm on that particle RFID ID.

Here is an article telling you the distance that can track RFID.

http://www.rfidjournal.com/expert/entry/9503
Click to expand...

In the context of this article, a RFID enabled KTTW card would be classified as a "passive" type, and a magic band w/ battery would be classified as an "active" type, right?
 
flynnibus

flynnibus

Premium Member
muteki said:
In the context of this article, a RFID enabled KTTW card would be classified as a "passive" type, and a magic band w/ battery would be classified as an "active" type, right?
Click to expand...

No, according to the FCC filing the RFID tags in use are passive. The battery in the band is for the 2.4ghz radio in the band

Range for the RFID part of the system is a design feature.
 
muteki

muteki

Well-Known Member
flynnibus said:
No, according to the FCC filing the RFID tags in use are passive. The battery in the band is for the 2.4ghz radio in the band

Range for the RFID part of the system is a design feature.
Click to expand...

So I guess the questions are what these two separate radios are for, what the range of each is, and what data each has access to (assuming it is any different).
 
bgraham34

bgraham34

Well-Known Member
According to the FCC filings it states the following.
This application is for the original approval of a wrist worn arm band, FCC ID: Q3E-MB-R1G1,
that transmits a signal to in indoor wireless infrastructure. The device is battery powered by a
non-replaceable coin cell. The device also contains passive UHF and HF RFID tags, verified to
FCC Part 15B.

I take it that the UHF is to track where you are going in the park since that has a range of about 25 feet. And the HF band is for Fastpass and Purchasing things.
 
muteki

muteki

Well-Known Member
flynnibus said:
Answers only Disney can provide because the answers depend on implementation
Click to expand...

Exactly. I wasn't suggesting anyone here or outside TWDC would know, but there is a distinction to be made. As it stands the existing tech is certainly capable of whatever they wish to do with it, to what extent and how much they wish to disclose is up to them.
 
flynnibus

flynnibus

Premium Member
There are practical constraints... But without knowledge of the reader design, or truly what they are prioritizing... It's all speculation.

They could be tracking in wide areas by the radio only...
They could be tracking very localized spots with short range via the tags...
They could be doing either or both or more...

The RFID tags are limited by having to have an active reader irradiating them. That is harder to do over wide areas for something that is supposed to be continuous. Add to thst the Tags in the cards are gighly likrly to be obscured, hindering range/visibility. That's why I don't think they intend to do large scale continuous monitoring with the RFID tags. But the tags would be used in more controlled, narrow focus uses.

The radio is better suited for monitoring open areas passively
 

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