Tipping is this fair ?

[flynnibus]

It was never "voluntary".

I was specifically referring to servers greasing other staff that isNOT part of a tip pool. The tip pool would be by definition... The tips. But you are not bound by your tip take income it comes to tipping out other staff (not tip pooling). Basically an agreement to tip your other staff... Here based on your net sales... Not that you are sharing tips.

I get all your msg about what is a tip after the tip credit, etc... But we are not talking about strict tip pooling here... And i believe that is the grey area where so many places are able tomget away with defining it on sales vs a defined split of tips above and beyond the tax credit.

In an all credit world... It should be easy to track this vs needing to protect against those trying to cheat each other... But we can see here how employers can still abuse it to their favor. (tracking on aggregate sales vs inputed tip)

 

[englanddg]

I was specifically referring to servers greasing other staff that isNOT part of a tip pool. The tip pool would be by definition... The tips. But you are not bound by your tip take income it comes to tipping out other staff (not tip pooling). Basically an agreement to tip your other staff... Here based on your net sales... Not that you are sharing tips.

I get all your msg about what is a tip after the tip credit, etc... But we are not talking about strict tip pooling here... And i believe that is the grey area where so many places are able tomget away with defining it on sales vs a defined split of tips above and beyond the tax credit.

In an all credit world... It should be easy to track this vs needing to protect against those trying to cheat each other... But we can see here how employers can still abuse it to their favor. (tracking on aggregate sales vs inputed tip)

Can you refine your statement?

 

[Ariel1986]

I'm from England and yes the US system is a bit of a shock on a first visit- but, I respect that it's one of your customs and whilst I'm over there, tip accordingly.

Someone brought up about whether non-US people in the park may get a different type of service because of a reputation for not tipping, due to either being unaware or perhaps being a bit like the OP.
I have experienced one server in WDW- at the Hollywood Brown Derby actually, so a signature- treating us different perhaps due to our British accents. She proceeded to tell us when she brought our bill that we MUST circle one of the choices for tip on the bottom of the bill and add it to the total. Then she told us again whilst pointing to the % choices with a pen. I found this quite patronising and it left a slight sour taste to the end of a fairly nice meal. I felt tempted to write next to the tip line "actually, we would- and do- tip quite well, but since you were rude enough to point it out more than once you put us off doing so!" However, I thought the rest of the meal had been pleasant and that I'd be reinforcing her stereotype of British people or whatever reason she decided we would not be tippers for, if I left a low or no tip. I should of mentioned it to her manager though.

Anyway. As a note on how we differ to tipping over here- I was at a restaurant in The Savoy hotel in London over the weekend (one of the top luxury hotels- and the restaurant was definitely what you would call a signature!) and they included the tip as mandatory on the bill, there was no choice. And it was 12.5%! At one of the top hotels in London. That's how different it is over here- and tipping is rarely mandatory on a bill over here either.

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

I'm from England and yes the US system is a bit of a shock on a first visit- but, I respect that it's one of your customs and whilst I'm over there, tip accordingly.

Someone brought up about whether non-US people in the park may get a different type of service because of a reputation for not tipping, due to either being unaware or perhaps being a bit like the OP.
I have experienced one server in WDW- at the Hollywood Brown Derby actually, so a signature- treating us different perhaps due to our British accents. She proceeded to tell us when she brought our bill that we MUST circle one of the choices for tip on the bottom of the bill and add it to the total. Then she told us again whilst pointing to the % choices with a pen. I found this quite patronising and it left a slight sour taste to the end of a fairly nice meal. I felt tempted to write next to the tip line "actually, we would- and do- tip quite well, but since you were rude enough to point it out more than once you put us off doing so!" However, I thought the rest of the meal had been pleasant and that I'd be reinforcing her stereotype of British people or whatever reason she decided we would not be tippers for, if I left a low or no tip. I should of mentioned it to her manager though.

Anyway. As a note on how we differ to tipping over here- I was at a restaurant in The Savoy hotel in London over the weekend (one of the top luxury hotels- and the restaurant was definitely what you would call a signature!) and they included the tip as mandatory on the bill, there was no choice. And it was 12.5%! At one of the top hotels in London. That's how different it is over here- and tipping is rarely mandatory on a bill over here either.

That has happened to me before, at Coral Reef. I think it was just because we were a young teen couple.

 

[Ariel1986]

That has happened to me before, at Coral Reef. I think it was just because we were a young teen couple.

I get that it must be frustrating for the server to keep being left no tips- and it appearing to be from the same groups of people- but everyone is different so it's still rude I think for it to be pointed out more than once!

 

[SeanWM48]

I tip. My mother was a waitress, I get it.
But at the same time if i get totally poor service - which does happen once in a long while, i'm talking once every two or three years - no, I'm not tipping. Disney World or not. I'm talking rare cases here. People shouldn't feel so obligated to tip *if the service is extraordinarily bad*. It's a TIP; it's earned.

 

[Bparso87]

My mom was a waitress and not at signature restrurant if she had a bad day we didn't eat I would never not tip. I will only tip 10-15% for buffets tough. But at 120$ for a family of 4 they r still getting at least 12 bucks a table.

 

[rt06]

The fact that you calculated all of this to justify your tip cap on what will be a very poor tip for a party of four at a signature dining restaurant is telling.

And why would a self proclaimed sommelier feel the need to test the server? You're the expert. Just choose the wine for the table like a gentleman.

 

[Phonedave]

On the subject of wine and tipping - that has been a topic of debate in many other places aside from this one, for many a year.

First, yes, wine prices in restaurants are high - A good rule of thumb is 2x the retail price for a bottle (once you are in the $100 range, all bets are off). Sure people get all crazy about that mark up, but the fact is, if you are stock wine for a restaurant, you are laying out a lot of money for a product that may not move for a long long time. That carrying cost gets expensive. That is why the markup on house wine is not as much, they move that stuff out the door. However, none of that mark up is going to the server.

As for tipping on alcohol costs, there is a school of thought that says if you are buying a higher priced bottle, then you can reduce your tip percentage on that amount by a bit. My feeling is, if the wine is $50 a bottle or less (restaurant prices) then I tip full percentage. If it goes above that, then I might knock it down a bit. Something like V&A, where there are multiple wines, I tip full percentage on the price.

As far as bartenders, a dollar a drink is something that comes from the days when people carried cash. 20% on a $5 drink is a buck. If the drink is $6, am I going to leave $1.20 - no, the bartender does not want to make change. If the drink was $4 and I put down a $5 am I going to ask for 20 cents back - again no. Plus, as the evening wears on, and peoples math skills become suspect, a dollar a drink is something that is easy to calculate. However when ordering drinks with table service, now you have both the server (who gets your order correct, places the order, and brings you your drinks) and the bartender (who makes the drink) to tip.

If I am going to be at a bar for a while (such as at a wedding, or a party in a hall, or some other such event) I tip $10 with my first drink order (and $1 with each subsequent drink). That way, when the line is 5 people deep at the bar later in the evening, I just walk up, the bartender spots my 6' 4" standing in the crowd, and says "what can I get you?"

-dave

 

[Much-Pixie-Dust]

On the subject of wine and tipping - that has been a topic of debate in many other places aside from this one, for many a year.

First, yes, wine prices in restaurants are high - A good rule of thumb is 2x the retail price for a bottle (once you are in the $100 range, all bets are off). Sure people get all crazy about that mark up, but the fact is, if you are stock wine for a restaurant, you are laying out a lot of money for a product that may not move for a long long time. That carrying cost gets expensive. That is why the markup on house wine is not as much, they move that stuff out the door. However, none of that mark up is going to the server.

As for tipping on alcohol costs, there is a school of thought that says if you are buying a higher priced bottle, then you can reduce your tip percentage on that amount by a bit. My feeling is, if the wine is $50 a bottle or less (restaurant prices) then I tip full percentage. If it goes above that, then I might knock it down a bit. Something like V&A, where there are multiple wines, I tip full percentage on the price.

As far as bartenders, a dollar a drink is something that comes from the days when people carried cash. 20% on a $5 drink is a buck. If the drink is $6, am I going to leave $1.20 - no, the bartender does not want to make change. If the drink was $4 and I put down a $5 am I going to ask for 20 cents back - again no. Plus, as the evening wears on, and peoples math skills become suspect, a dollar a drink is something that is easy to calculate. However when ordering drinks with table service, now you have both the server (who gets your order correct, places the order, and brings you your drinks) and the bartender (who makes the drink) to tip.

If I am going to be at a bar for a while (such as at a wedding, or a party in a hall, or some other such event) I tip $10 with my first drink order (and $1 with each subsequent drink). That way, when the line is 5 people deep at the bar later in the evening, I just walk up, the bartender spots my 6' 4" standing in the crowd, and says "what can I get you?"

-dave

My DH is "pretipper'' too at bars and other such places. (That's my name for it). We always have super service when he does this. When we go to sporting events, we sit in the section where they bring you food and beverage. I always love seeing the server's face when he pretips. It makes them so happy and hopefully they know their service is appreciated. One server overheard us talking about our daughter and put together a little goody bag for us to take home to her one time!

 

[brifraz]

On the subject of wine and tipping - that has been a topic of debate in many other places aside from this one, for many a year.

If I am going to be at a bar for a while (such as at a wedding, or a party in a hall, or some other such event) I tip $10 with my first drink order (and $1 with each subsequent drink). That way, when the line is 5 people deep at the bar later in the evening, I just walk up, the bartender spots my 6' 4" standing in the crowd, and says "what can I get you?"
-dave

My DH is "pretipper'' too at bars and other such places. (That's my name for it). We always have super service when he does this. When we go to sporting events, we sit in the section where they bring you food and beverage. I always love seeing the server's face when he pretips. It makes them so happy and hopefully they know their service is appreciated. One server overheard us talking about our daughter and put together a little goody bag for us to take home to her one time!

We also are big on pre-tipping. It has paid off with unimagined dividends. We travel to DW once to twice a year and we have seen that initial pre-tipping pay off on the next trip - when we are remembered and served at a high level right away (when we then pre-tip generously again, things get really fun!!). At Backyard BBQ, we pre-tipped the poor little bartender stuck in the corner and for the entire night, as soon as she saw my wife or I get up from our table, drinks were being readied. Humorously, she tried to give me another beer once when I was getting an ice cream! At a local establishment we went to just once, pre-tipping scored us free drinks later in the night and at weddings that has been the case more than once. For a number of years, I played in a wedding band and a nice pre-tip scored me drinks delivered to the bandstand on a number of occasions.

 

[flynnibus]

On the subject of wine and tipping - that has been a topic of debate in many other places aside from this one, for many a year.

First, yes, wine prices in restaurants are high - A good rule of thumb is 2x the retail price for a bottle (once you are in the $100 range, all bets are off). Sure people get all crazy about that mark up, but the fact is, if you are stock wine for a restaurant, you are laying out a lot of money for a product that may not move for a long long time. That carrying cost gets expensive. That is why the markup on house wine is not as much, they move that stuff out the door. However, none of that mark up is going to the server.

As for tipping on alcohol costs, there is a school of thought that says if you are buying a higher priced bottle, then you can reduce your tip percentage on that amount by a bit. My feeling is, if the wine is $50 a bottle or less (restaurant prices) then I tip full percentage. If it goes above that, then I might knock it down a bit. Something like V&A, where there are multiple wines, I tip full percentage on the price.

As far as bartenders, a dollar a drink is something that comes from the days when people carried cash. 20% on a $5 drink is a buck. If the drink is $6, am I going to leave $1.20 - no, the bartender does not want to make change. If the drink was $4 and I put down a $5 am I going to ask for 20 cents back - again no. Plus, as the evening wears on, and peoples math skills become suspect, a dollar a drink is something that is easy to calculate. However when ordering drinks with table service, now you have both the server (who gets your order correct, places the order, and brings you your drinks) and the bartender (who makes the drink) to tip.

If I am going to be at a bar for a while (such as at a wedding, or a party in a hall, or some other such event) I tip $10 with my first drink order (and $1 with each subsequent drink). That way, when the line is 5 people deep at the bar later in the evening, I just walk up, the bartender spots my 6' 4" standing in the crowd, and says "what can I get you?"

-dave

Yup - all examples we've covered to show that these blanket rules about tipping a percentage really don't work and when push comes to shove... when it comes to your own pocket, most adjust like the examples you brought up.

Something reminds me of that line from the Pirates movies about the Pirate code... Yet some will jump down your throat for the nerve of not tipping 18-20% right off the bottom of the bill.

And no one has addressed how the minimum tip has someone changed from 15% to 18%

 

[BuddyThomas]

This board is a great group of people and it is really refreshing to see that most know that tipping is not a city in China and you do the right thing.

I have to say that the responses on tipping at buffets really blow my mind though. The concept of reducing the tip to 10% just because the waiter doesn't bring your food is pretty twisted, and here is why:

In most restaurants, a waiter will not bring your food anyway. Unless you are talking about places like Denny's or the like, modern restaurants generally have "food runners" whose job is to run food out to tables all night long.

Additionally, although I've personally never worked in a buffet, I have been to plenty and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that buffet waiters have a harder job than regular waiters - constantly clearing plates and refilling sodas. I've seen big parties at Chef Mickey's run the servers absolutely ragged. And the thought that these people are possibly going to leave a buck on the table after all that is truly amazing.

Also, if they work in a place that serves alcohol, they are still doing wine and cocktail service.

And let me clarify that I am talking about fine buffets where there is a waiter assigned to each table, like at Disney, casinos, etc. I don't know what the system is at places like Golden Corral, etc.

 

[Mouse_Trap]

In most restaurants, a waiter will not bring your food anyway. Unless you are talking about places like Denny's or the like, modern restaurants generally have "food runners" whose job is to run food out to tables all night long.

I had noticed this becoming more and more common.
I hate it though, feels so much more inpersonal. In a good restaurant with a good server then should have checked everything was right with the order before it left the kitchen and checked that any changes/additions are correct, they also shouldn't need to ask at the table who ordered what.

If you get a runner bring your food, and somebody else clear the plates then I do wonder what you're actually tipping for? Basically someone who took your order......

 

[BuddyThomas]

I had noticed this becoming more and more common.
I hate it though, feels so much more inpersonal. In a good restaurant with a good server then should have checked everything was right with the order before it left the kitchen and checked that any changes/additions are correct, they also shouldn't need to ask at the table who ordered what.

If you get a runner bring your food, and somebody else clear the plates then I do wonder what you're actually tipping for? Basically someone who took your order......

I understand what you are saying but you are basically tipping a team of people by tipping your waiter. The waiter is required to split tips to the food runner, the bus boy, the bartender, and sometimes the host. This can take as much as 30% to 40% from the waiter's tips, depending on the restaurant's policy of who gets what.

And this generally is calculated off a server's sales - not the tips he actually
received. At the end of the night, a server receives a print out of his sales along with the percentages that he must tip out to the support staff.

So, if you stiff me, congratulations! I just paid money out of my pocket to wait on you.

 

[BrianV]

I understand what you are saying but you are basically tipping a team of people by tipping your waiter. The waiter is required to split tips to the food runner, the bus boy, the bartender, and sometimes the host. This can take as much as 30% to 40% from the waiter's tips, depending on the restaurant's policy of who gets what.

And this generally is calculated off a server's sales - not the tips he actually
received. At the end of the night, a server receives a print out of his sales along with the percentages that he must tip out to the support staff.

So, if you stiff me, congratulations! I just paid money out of my pocket to wait on you.

Still missing the point, perhaps. If you do a bad job serving, do you deserve a tip? And if so, how much? Commensurate with your service level?

 

[Kit83]

The fact that you calculated all of this to justify your tip cap on what will be a very poor tip for a party of four at a signature dining restaurant is telling.

And why would a self proclaimed sommelier feel the need to test the server? You're the expert. Just choose the wine for the table like a gentleman.

"We will not pay any extra for wine service unless they show expertise and then not a % (I've worked in the wine trade for 30 years ) but then only around $10 regardless of the wine cost . Wine sales in restaurants are a massive profit earner so we will not pay a % on already very inflated prices .".. from my OP

My OP above may be where you got the idea I'm a Sommelier (wine waiter) I was in my student days, but for most of my career I have been teaching professional wine industry qualifications . While I have a good understanding of wine service in restaurants in Europe I cannot say the same for the USA . As for 'testing' the server - that is not what I said - I said I would be happy to tip on wine if they showed 'expertise' .

My "calculation" as is clear from the OP is a question posed to ask if it would be considered 'acceptable' and to start discussion for those reading this forum that don't know tipping is (as it appears from these posts) is not about rewarding for good service rather about paying a servers wage .

I think after fully reading all these posts it is clear to 'foreigners' that feelings run very deep regarding tipping and they will now understand its importance and that "non obligatory" is in fact " obligatory" .

In my opinion, It would be simpler and better for staff and guests to include the servers wage in the menu price rather than hide it as a tip, allowing diners to know the true price of the meal they are about to enjoy. All this may be common knowledge in the US but after a straw poll of my family and friends 9 out of 10 were not aware of the tip system in the US, none were aware that you should always tip even with poor service.

There also appears to be an air of hand-wringing, holier than thou and finger pointing over this for daring to bring up this subject for discussion . I'm sure many reading have not dared put their thoughts forward due to this, least you should be branded at best "cheap"

Disagreement surrounds the whole subject of tipping another reason I think 'tips' included would make things simpler for all, a tip would be a tip in its dictionary meaning.

Should it then follow that if a tip is in fact a wage then everyone should give more say 25 or 30% to reward good service ?

 

[xdan0920]

"We will not pay any extra for wine service unless they show expertise and then not a % (I've worked in the wine trade for 30 years ) but then only around $10 regardless of the wine cost . Wine sales in restaurants are a massive profit earner so we will not pay a % on already very inflated prices .".. from my OP

My OP above may be where you got the idea I'm a Sommelier (wine waiter) I was in my student days, but for most of my career I have been teaching professional wine industry qualifications . While I have a good understanding of wine service in restaurants in Europe I cannot say the same for the USA . As for 'testing' the server - that is not what I said - I said I would be happy to tip on wine if they showed 'expertise' .

My "calculation" as is clear from the OP is a question posed to ask if it would be considered 'acceptable' and to start discussion for those reading this forum that don't know tipping is (as it appears from these posts) is not about rewarding for good service rather about paying a servers wage .

I think after fully reading all these posts it is clear to 'foreigners' that feelings run very deep regarding tipping and they will now understand its importance and that "non obligatory" is in fact " obligatory" .

In my opinion, It would be simpler and better for staff and guests to include the servers wage in the menu price rather than hide it as a tip, allowing diners to know the true price of the meal they are about to enjoy. All this may be common knowledge in the US but after a straw poll of my family and friends 9 out of 10 were not aware of the tip system in the US, none were aware that you should always tip even with poor service.

There also appears to be an air of hand-wringing, holier than thou and finger pointing over this for daring to bring up this subject for discussion . I'm sure many reading have not dared put their thoughts forward due to this, least you should be branded at best "cheap"

Disagreement surrounds the whole subject of tipping another reason I think 'tips' included would make things simpler for all, a tip would be a tip in its dictionary meaning.

Should it then follow that if a tip is in fact a wage then everyone should give more say 25 or 30% to reward good service ?

The hand wringing is over cheap foreigners hiding behind their foreigness to tip less then the expected norm. "I've been to Disney 10 times, I tip 8% bc I don't know any better." Someone who doesn't know any better, and simply asks, will get a simple answer.

 

[Lucky]

Discussions about tipping generate a lot of disagreement even among Americans, and I think many of us (but not all) agree it would be better if servers' incomes were less dependent on tips, as in Europe.

 

[joined to raise a point]

I joined today to make a point and I am shocked at how people are reacting to each other, I am a reasonable tipper, however I do not see why I should reward someone for remembering what drink/ meal I have ordered!! It is their job, they knew what there were applying for, its not up to me to make their wage if they are not putting the effort in. As I said I tip however I base it on service, if they are keeping my drink topped up and being attentive they get the going rate for a tip if not more but if I have to ask for drinks to be topped or fresh cutlery they still get a tip but not as much as someone who gave good service. I will not stick the suggested percentage just because it’s the “thing to do” when I go the US.