Tipping is this fair ?

[Mawg]

So if I drive an expensive car... because I can afford it... I should throw money at people universally?

If I buy a $100 bottle of wine vs a $10 bottle... did the waiter work that much harder?

Yes, they were experienced enough to get you to buy the $100 dollar bottle of wine. Their job is to get you to buy more to make the establishment more money and to get larger tips because they did so.

 

[HollyAD]

So if I drive an expensive car... because I can afford it... I should throw money at people universally?

If I buy a $100 bottle of wine vs a $10 bottle... did the waiter work that much harder?

Not a fair statement... I am guessing you never worked in food service. I didn't but I do have many friends that used to before they started their careers. I don't like to argue with people about money but I do believe you "got to pay to play."

 

[Mawg]

You won't find much support amoung most Americans for the idea of capped tip - even though the principle itself is sound. Too much of america is jaded by the 'they work really hard!' 'they don't get paid enough' or they've worked service in the past and still hold grudges against poor tippers.

Does the person working the buffet who just delievers drinks and takes empty plates work the same as the person taking your orders and serving 3 courses? No... but within the mindset of many in the US, they wouldn't dare consider tipping the buffet worker less than 15%... yet may scoff that the full service wait staff baseline should be higher. It's a mindset not held by logic but emotions.

Or how about when you tip bartenders... do you tip twice as much because you bought a import beer instead of a domestic? No, most people tip based on the # of drinks and complexity... but again many will stick to the mantra of '20%' because it's some arbitrary number commonly used before.



Except we're talking about Disney world... where prices are higher not because of 'fine dining' but because it's Disney. Another example where it doesn't add up... character meals. Where the per person cost is high because of the entertainment, but by common defintion you should be tipping the wait staff on the meal cost.. which is excessively inflated because of the entertainment. Adding insult to injury, several of those locations are BUFFETS and others are family style. Why should the wait staff be tipped the same as someone who actually works a resturant with enough service and quality to actually demand $40 a plate?

Simply put.. price doesn't define service level... yet people expect to be tipped on a schedule based on price, not service.

I worked service all through college at a Denny's and have so much respect for those in the service industry. I'm not a fan of tipping less than the standard 15% but in the case of a buffet I agree with you. If I'm at a place where there servers only job is to bring me drinks and refills and take my dirty plates away then I tip less. Typically this also means that a server can have upwards to 10 or more tables because they don't have to take orders or bring food to the table.

 

[Hakunamatata]

Not a fair statement... I am guessing you never worked in food service. I didn't but I do have many friends that used to before they started their careers. I don't like to argue with people about money but I do believe you "got to pay to play."

If there is no law or city ordinance requiring tipping then you don't gotta pay to play. You might not like the game after not tipping at the same place a couple of times, but that is the risk you run.

 

[HRHPrincessAriel]

Yes, they were experienced enough to get you to buy the $100 dollar bottle of wine. Their job is to get you to buy more to make the establishment more money and to get larger tips because they did so.

I sure hope the server at V&A's is more knowledgble about his wine than the server at Olive Garden!!
;-)

 

[Mawg]

If there is no law or city ordinance requiring tipping then you don't gotta pay to play. You might not like the game after not tipping at the same place a couple of times, but that is the risk you run.

Yep and these days you also risk having your receipt with tipped amount posted all over twitter or facebook. I'm not saying what we do in the US is fair but basically you set the servers salary, it would be like if I could walk into your industry and say to your boss don't pay this guy that much today not because they did not work hard but just because I don't think he should make that much.

 

[flynnibus]

Yes, they were experienced enough to get you to buy the $100 dollar bottle of wine. Their job is to get you to buy more to make the establishment more money and to get larger tips because they did so.

So wait... now you're saying we should pay higher tips because we owe them commission?

This is the crux of the problem.. Tipping theories are not based in logic - they are emotional rules. It's a practice that starts practically but the rules people try to apply universally don't actually fit the logic.

If the wait staff do a very good job of helping me pick which wine we want...then that is great service and they deserve a bit more. But if I just walk in and know what I want... they didn't do squat to earn that extra $15

Just like at Disney where prices are 50% higher for no reason than being Disney... the kid working my table at Tusker House isn't doing anything to earn that much more than the person who is working Denny's across the highway... yet the customary rules expect us to tip the Tusker House guy SIGNIFICANTLY more than the staff at Dennys.

And franky the service at Dennys is better.

 

[HRHPrincessAriel]

So wait... now you're saying we should pay higher tips because we owe them commission?

This is the crux of the problem.. Tipping theories are not based in logic - they are emotional rules. It's a practice that starts practically but the rules people try to apply universally don't actually fit the logic.

If the wait staff do a very good job of helping me pick which wine we want...then that is great service and they deserve a bit more. But if I just walk in and know what I want... they didn't do squat to earn that extra $15

Just like at Disney where prices are 50% higher for no reason than being Disney... the kid working my table at Tusker House isn't doing anything to earn that much more than the person who is working Denny's across the highway... yet the customary rules expect us to tip the Tusker House guy SIGNIFICANTLY more than the staff at Dennys.

And franky the service at Dennys is better.

I wouldn't I would tip them the same.

 

[flynnibus]

Not a fair statement... I am guessing you never worked in food service

I have.. but there is that stereotype popping up... those who challenge the tipping rules must be outsiders who don't know the pain and suffering..

In no way am I saying people don't deserve to be paid for their services... the problem is the 'customary rules' so many people hold so dear are flawed.

Remember when 15% was customary.. and 18% was reserved for large parties? What happened to make it so 18% became customary... who decides that? The irony is the people who pushed for 18% automatic tend to be the places who offer less service!

People get used to paying the 18% and now people think 18%-20% is customary... based on what? Simply past behavior.

None of it is based in logic

 

[flynnibus]

I wouldn't I would tip them the same.

Yet, customary policy is that you tip based on meal+drinks and party size BEFORE any discounts.

And why I think the customary guidance is flawed.

 

[Mawg]

So wait... now you're saying we should pay higher tips because we owe them commission?

This is the crux of the problem.. Tipping theories are not based in logic - they are emotional rules. It's a practice that starts practically but the rules people try to apply universally don't actually fit the logic.

If the wait staff do a very good job of helping me pick which wine we want...then that is great service and they deserve a bit more. But if I just walk in and know what I want... they didn't do squat to earn that extra $15

Just like at Disney where prices are 50% higher for no reason than being Disney... the kid working my table at Tusker House isn't doing anything to earn that much more than the person who is working Denny's across the highway... yet the customary rules expect us to tip the Tusker House guy SIGNIFICANTLY more than the staff at Dennys.

And franky the service at Dennys is better.

Then tip more at Denny's, it would have made me happy. Not saying this is the way it is at Disney World but it should be harder to get a job as a server at a Fine Dinning restaurant as they can and are more selective on who they hirer and their level of experience. In most cases servers at these establishments have worked hard to get where they are and deserve to make more. I don't know the job market in the Orlando area, it's possible that these fine Dinning establishments can't be as selective as in other markets so you may not be dealing with the cream of the crop, I just don't know and not about to make that judgment. But if the service is not up to your expectations at a fine dinning restaurant then don't tip like it is. But as the original OP opinion was to come in with a preconceived notion that you are going to cap any tip at a certain amount because you don't think they deserve to make that much money is disrespectful and demeaning and comes across to me that they feel a service person is beneath them.

 

[rsoxguy]

Hello all. If the OP was being sincerely inquisitive, then this thread is slowly turning into the mess that he claimed he didn't want. If the OP is a troll, then you are slowly beginning to feed him. In either case, this topic has been argued here ad nauseam.

 

[BrianV]

I don't really want to reopen this controversial topic but I would like to know what you think of how we plan to tip at WDW . I'am happy to tip the normal amounts for bags valet parking bar staff etc but when it comes to tipping in restaurants I have come up with this for a family of four eating (3 course) at a signature restaurant.

We will gave between 15 and 25 dollars depending on service, top end if they exceed our expected level of service bottom if its a normal level . If service is poor too slow rude etc we will not pay any tip and will make a formal complaint after first taking the matter up with the waiter .

We will not pay any extra for wine service unless they show expertise and then not a % (I've worked in the wine trade for 30 years ) but then only around $10 regardless of the wine cost . Wine sales in restaurants are a massive profit earner so we will not pay a % on already very inflated prices .

This is based on a 3 course meal for 4 with wine, cheaper meals we will pay 15 to 20 % of the food cost less tax and wine but that % will not exceed the 15 to 25 $ its no more work to serve more expensive food .

Florida minimum tipped wage is $4.91 assuming each waiter is tipped 15 $ per table and they serve 3 tables per hour for 6 hours inc lunch and dinner on a 8 hour day they should earn around $310 a day five days a week 48 weeks a year not bad even after tax .

It's all much easier here in europe service is always included. I often add to the bill if service is very good but I have also had the service charge removed if it was poor. I'not suggesting the USA should change its not for me to say .

I know this is a controversial subject for many especially for those who do the waiting on but just wanted to know your opinions and not offend anyone .

It is actually a perfectly "fair" system in the abstract BUT...that is not how it is done here!!!!!!

 

[Kosmo1986]

I think it obvious that the answer is no and you knew what people would say and just came to get a rise. Well I sincerely hope you reconsider you "ideals" on tipping. No matter what your intentions you're comments are offensive to anyone who has tried to make a living working in the service industry. Not to mention karma can be cruel and you don't want it to bite you back while trying to enjoy your vacation.

 

[officialtom]

Weighing in as a Canadian (and please note that I quite often don't agree with American reasoning on certain topics):

The Americans on this forum are right! The expected and reasonable tip (at least for table service) at WDW is 18-20% of the total bill. If you choose to get a $200+ bottle of wine, that's 100% your choice and obviously you have enough cash to spare for both an expensive bottle and the corresponding tip.

WDW offers some of the most exemplary customer service in the western hemisphere, if not the world, and the employees deserve to be compensated for it.

Honestly, if I were travelling with you and you only tipped $20 on a $350 meal, I would be embarrassed, even horrified, and would likely feel obligated to make up the difference (to at least 18% of the bill) myself. And then I would refuse to ever eat with you again.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Don't go to America if you don't want to play by their rules?

I'm European, I too think American tipping customs are mental and deranged. But I'm not going to change the system during my two week stay, so I just do as they do.

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

We will gave between 15 and 25 dollars depending on service, top end if they exceed our expected level of service bottom if its a normal level . If service is poor too slow rude etc we will not pay any tip and will make a formal complaint after first taking the matter up with the waiter .

We will not pay any extra for wine service unless they show expertise and then not a % (I've worked in the wine trade for 30 years ) but then only around $10 regardless of the wine cost . Wine sales in restaurants are a massive profit earner so we will not pay a % on already very inflated prices .

This is based on a 3 course meal for 4 with wine, cheaper meals we will pay 15 to 20 % of the food cost less tax and wine but that % will not exceed the 15 to 25 $ its no more work to serve more expensive food .

Florida minimum tipped wage is $4.91 assuming each waiter is tipped 15 $ per table and they serve 3 tables per hour for 6 hours inc lunch and dinner on a 8 hour day they should earn around $310 a day five days a week 48 weeks a year not bad even after tax .

It's all much easier here in europe service is always included. I often add to the bill if service is very good but I have also had the service charge removed if it was poor. I'not suggesting the USA should change its not for me to say .

I know this is a controversial subject for many especially for those who do the waiting on but just wanted to know your opinions and not offend anyone .

Im not trying to be harsh but... most of the signature restaurants are only open 5- 9:30 or 10, plus you are assuming that the tips are not split/shared.

With your calculations.. $15 per 3 tables per hour would net them about $250 per day after base pay but before taxes... maybe $930 weekly after taxes at that rate, $186 per day. No that isn't bad at all... But its not our job to decided what is fair pay for someone else, plus you don't know whether your waiter went to college for professional training (something they may have paid for out of pocket.)

I have never worked front of the house or as a waiter but one of my professors in culinary school was a maitre d' at Victoria and Albert's. Which makes me wonder how many of the waiters in the signature restaurants also have college degrees or formal training...

I can tell you, imo, the waiters at the signature restaurants are top notch. They work hard and deserve far more than $25 for excellent service. We've tipped $50+ plenty of times... it is expensive but we know that and we limit ourselves to 2 or 3 signature meals for that reason. If you cant afford the tip, then don't go or rack up the bill... don't order a 4 $13 appetizers then balk at a $70 tip... if you think the prices are unreasonable... then you probably shouldn't eat there. (Again not trying to be mean just honest)

Also it isn't far to assume that service is slow because of the waiter... sometimes the kitchen can hold up food and bar hold up drinks.. you shouldn't let that be a dominate factor in whether you tip or not.

I definitely tip less at buffets than standard restaurants because they do less for me. But any other restaurant I always start with a 20% tip and drop it lower if I have issues with the waiter/waitress.

As far as your comments about tipping on wine... I do kind of agree... when I'm at a bar I tip a set amount per drink $2-$3 per

 

[Dog Ate Mouse]

When it comes to tipping I still follow the 15 to 20% or more rule. If the waiter or waitress was polite attentive and shown their face, I feel they deserve a good tip. The waiter or waitress is not responsible on food preps and or flavor. I never fault a waiter for food flavors, appearance and styles or my meal possibly delayed due to kitchen issues. I grade the waiter or waitress on being attentive, polite and be accommodating within reason and showing that they are around and not forgetting that you are there.
Now yes the waiter or waitress besides what I pointed out is there job to see if they can talk you into anything else. Honestly in my eyes, that is part of their job working for the restaurant. It is truly left up to you to decide do you really want an expensive bottle of wine or extra special dessert or maybe no dessert at all. Sometimes I have gone into a restaurant with no holds barred and have paid for it, but walked away extremely happy. These times are due to special occasion or sometimes just splurging once and awhile on the DWF and myself. Other time I we kept it to a bare bones minimum due to budget. I will say that when I am worrying or need to keep a bare bones budget that we are not dinning at the best restaurants.
Which brings me back full circle and why the DWF and I choose the plan we do when on vacation at WDW.

 

[Kit83]

To answer some of your points my intention was not to troll, I did think it would be a contentious issue but my question was sincere . I may have been safer bringing up politics or religion

I have tried to understand everyone's point and do get what you say I just don't think it makes any sense to me, it appears to be mostly based on tradition and emotion . I would rather the staff were rewarded in their basic pay and then reward good service on top of the bill . If restaurant prices go up then so be it. It will make no difference to your pockets as you won't need to pay the non mandatory %(tip) .

Would it not be better for the staff if they were paid fully and not having to rely on people like me (or you) ? when business is low they would still get to pay their bills . Experienced staff would command greater money like other industries. Guests would not be subsidising the restaurants wage bill and it would reflect in real menu prices .

As for not being able to pay the % tip, its not a question of money, more, do I think 20% is a fair tip on a large bill I don't but I do think they deserve good pay .

I have read some restaurants in New York are trying out an included service charge I wonder how that's working out .

I just want to remind some these are just my thoughts I not trying to change your world just exercising free speech .

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

To answer some of your points my intention was not to troll, I did think it would be a contentious issue but my question was sincere . I may have been safer bringing up politics or religion

I have tried to understand everyone's point and do get what you say I just don't think it makes any sense to me, it appears to be mostly based on tradition and emotion . I would rather the staff were rewarded in their basic pay and then reward good service on top of the bill . If restaurant prices go up then so be it. It will make no difference to your pockets as you won't need to pay the non mandatory %(tip) .

Would it not be better for the staff if they were paid fully and not having to rely on people like me (or you) ? when business is low they would still get to pay their bills . Experienced staff would command greater money like other industries. Guests would not be subsidising the restaurants wage bill and it would reflect in real menu prices .

As for not being able to pay the % tip, its not a question of money, more, do I think 20% is a fair tip on a large bill I don't but I do think they deserve good pay .

I have read some restaurants in New York are trying out an included service charge I wonder how that's working out .

I just want to remind some these are just my thoughts I not trying to change your world just exercising free speech .

Actually this is something that's been getting debated more and more... Some seems like some people prefer getting tipped and some want to earn it because they make better money that way.
Some believe earning tips makes for improved service.

But until that is figured out... You should do what is customary in that country.
If you must cap the tip... At least be reasonable. $25 on a $350 is not reasonable to most. I would atleast tip $10 per person ($40 in your case) at signature meals and $5 per person at table service locations ($20 in your case) and $2 per person at buffets...