Tiana's Bayou Adventure: Disneyland Watch & Discussion

[el_super]

Yes, if you are familiar with Disney history there have always been passionate fan campaigns to save rides such as the Submarines, Horizons, Mr Toad, Country Bears, etc. It never seems to quite work out but we did get the Submarines resurrected as well as Captain EO.

Captain EO came back because Michael Jackson died.... not because of anything the fans did.

I mean ... I hope not because of anything the fans did.

 

[Roger_the_pianist]

@el_super "You will ultimately be happier if you stay in your place, where you are meant to be."

I think you just proved that Splash Mountain DOES have the same message of Song of the South, despite so many claiming it is far far removed from the film.

Thank you for the insight

 

[el_super]

I think you just proved that Splash Mountain DOES have the same message of Song of the South, despite so many claiming it is far far removed from the film.

Oh I actually think there are some subtle differences between the two that make Splash's story a little more egregious in this take.

In the film, the Laughing Place is more a metaphorical concept. It's not a physical place, but in the ride it actually IS a physical place that the riders have to pass through. In the ride you find Brer Rabbit at the end of the scene, being captured by Brer Fox, and this seems to indicate that it was his desire to travel to the laughing place, that ultimately led to his capture and downfall. In the film, he's captured due to his hubris and stubbornness, not because he specifically tried to escape to the Laughing Place.

I will absolutely say that I don't believe this was fully intended or realized by the Imagineers creating the attraction story (I think it was Joe Lanzisero?) and that some of this is just the limitations of trying to re-tell a story in a seven minute attraction, but it does highlight how a story can be taken in a different context to mean something that is not entirely evident or intended by the storyteller.

 

[Californian Elitist]

There is still a significant difference between them though: For Cars, members of those communities were available to participate and discuss how the depictions came across. Ramone and Mater were both centered around personalities that came from those communities and represented those communities.

The depiction of Brer Rabbit in Song of the South (and then Splash Mountain) was made without any input from the community he is meant to represent. That is a big part of the problem: appropriation.

This I’ll agree with.

 

[CaptinEO]

There is still a significant difference between them though: For Cars, members of those communities were available to participate and discuss how the depictions came across. Ramone and Mater were both centered around personalities that came from those communities and represented those communities.

The depiction of Brer Rabbit in Song of the South (and then Splash Mountain) was made without any input from the community he is meant to represent. That is a big part of the problem: appropriation.

Certainly, not everyone is comfortable with the depictions in CARS or Racers, but giving a community a voice to determine how they should be represented, even if they don't all agree, is still miles better than dictating to them how they should be represented.



In the grand scheme of things, the ride is about telling someone that they shouldn't bother trying to leave their "home" because trouble will find them. An attempt to escape to a better life is immediately threatened and proven to be folly. You will ultimately be happier if you stay in your place, where you are meant to be.

It's not a great story at all. But it sure is colorful.

How do we know they were involved creatively in the film's portroyal? Most likely they just auditioned for and landed voice over roles. Disney/Pixar doesn't let their actors rewrite the script.

Do you think Pixar which is now infamously known for its boys club and discrimination, and not taking input from female employees "reached out to communities" to give them a voice?

 

[el_super]

How do we know they were involved creatively in the film's portroyal? Most likely they just auditioned for and landed voice over roles. Disney/Pixar doesn't let their actors rewrite the script.

I know that Pixar approached Marin to play the part and he agreed, so I don't believe there was any audition. Ramone is, in part, based on the kind of characters that Marin made famous in the 70s and 80s, which is why they asked for him specifically. There is a lot more nuance to this and probably zero chance I will cover it correctly, but what you are seeing as stereotypes, are traits that really developed to define a specific community and that the community itself defined as a way of expressing itself outwardly. Low-riders were a defining trait of chicano car culture in the 1940s, so their inclusion in the movie, and Marin's involvement are both impacts that community made on the story.

I will though absolutely allow that boiling down a culture into those defining traits and perpetuating certain stereotypes does not constitute adequate inclusion. Times have changed and the definition of inclusion has changed with it. It's not merely acceptable to have a culture represented in a story, but instead necessary to tell stories from that culture itself. In time, the depiction of Ramone in Cars may come under a new light, just as Splash Mountain did, as not the best way to represent a community. For now though, there is still a little nostalgia and pride in seeing what might come across as a stereotype in Ramone, a nostalgia that comes in part from a time when any inclusion from a community was a win.

 

[CaptinEO]

I know that Pixar approached Marin to play the part and he agreed, so I don't believe there was any audition. Ramone is, in part, based on the kind of characters that Marin made famous in the 70s and 80s, which is why they asked for him specifically. There is a lot more nuance to this and probably zero chance I will cover it correctly, but what you are seeing as stereotypes, are traits that really developed to define a specific community and that the community itself defined as a way of expressing itself outwardly. Low-riders were a defining trait of chicano car culture in the 1940s, so their inclusion in the movie, and Marin's involvement are both impacts that community made on the story.

I will though absolutely allow that boiling down a culture into those defining traits and perpetuating certain stereotypes does not constitute adequate inclusion. Times have changed and the definition of inclusion has changed with it. It's not merely acceptable to have a culture represented in a story, but instead necessary to tell stories from that culture itself. In time, the depiction of Ramone in Cars may come under a new light, just as Splash Mountain did, as not the best way to represent a community. For now though, there is still a little nostalgia and pride in seeing what might come across as a stereotype in Ramone, a nostalgia that comes in part from a time when any inclusion from a community was a win.

Don't most stereotypes come from culture? Not all stereotypes are negative.

Him agreeing to play the part doesn't mean they consulted him about how the character plays into its culture. If you get offered a job in the industry you take it. I'm not saying the actors were offended by the content.

James Baskett certainly had nothing against the content he was creating as he took the job.

If anything Marin's character from Cheech and Chong is itsself seen as a stereotype now.

 

[Inspired Figment]

Don't most stereotypes come from culture? Not all stereotypes are negative.

Him agreeing to play the part doesn't mean they consulted him about how the character plays into its culture.

If anything Marin's character from Cheech and Chong is itsself seen as a stereotype now.

Still, You would think if an actor found their characters offensive, they’d speak up about it or wouldn’t play the part.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

I know that Pixar approached Marin to play the part and he agreed, so I don't believe there was any audition. Ramone is, in part, based on the kind of characters that Marin made famous in the 70s and 80s, which is why they asked for him specifically. There is a lot more nuance to this and probably zero chance I will cover it correctly, but what you are seeing as stereotypes, are traits that really developed to define a specific community and that the community itself defined as a way of expressing itself outwardly. Low-riders were a defining trait of chicano car culture in the 1940s, so their inclusion in the movie, and Marin's involvement are both impacts that community made on the story.

I will though absolutely allow that boiling down a culture into those defining traits and perpetuating certain stereotypes does not constitute adequate inclusion. Times have changed and the definition of inclusion has changed with it. It's not merely acceptable to have a culture represented in a story, but instead necessary to tell stories from that culture itself. In time, the depiction of Ramone in Cars may come under a new light, just as Splash Mountain did, as not the best way to represent a community. For now though, there is still a little nostalgia and pride in seeing what might come across as a stereotype in Ramone, a nostalgia that comes in part from a time when any inclusion from a community was a win.

This is an interesting debate, but in my view the problem with this entire hair splitting exercise is one person’s attempt at inclusion is another person’s cultural appropriation or stereotyping. I’m not accusing you or anyone here but in some cases something that is totally harmless is actually made worse when keyboard warriors constantly stir the pot. It’s taking a nugget of truth but over expounding. Similar to the gossipy kid in high school that spreads rumors in the boys locker room. Then all of a sudden it’s spreading like wildfire and becomes the talk of the school.

I’m part Italian. I never had a problem with Super Mario Bros, Pinocchio the Cars characters, various mob movies and depictions in pop culture. My fiancé who is Mexican loves old cartoons Speedy Gonzalez, the Tiki Room, Ramone and other supposedly “racist” caricatures.

I just think it’s really interesting that we live in a social media age where it’s celebrated to have the hubris to tell other folks what is offensive as if they know the hearts and minds of content creators, or worse yet as if all members of a single race and/or ethnic group should think monolithically about their portrayal in popular culture.

Do I agree that in some cases content will naturally age itself out of relevance? Yes. Do I think some of the early attempts at inclusion are crude, stereotypical, and in poor taste? Sure, but it takes falling off the bike to learn to ride. And ultimately I think this may prove a futile (if not risky) exercise on neutering artistic expression prospectively to dissect any form of representation to such an extent that all material becomes bland and characterless.

 

[celluloid]

This is an interesting debate, but in my view the problem with this entire hair splitting exercise is one person’s attempt at inclusion is another person’s cultural appropriation or stereotyping. I’m not accusing you or anyone here but in some cases something that is totally harmless is actually made worse when keyboard warriors constantly stir the pot. It’s taking a nugget of truth but over expounding. Similar to the gossipy kid in high school that spreads rumors in the boys locker room. Then all of a sudden it’s spreading like wildfire and becomes the talk of the school.

I’m part Italian. I never had a problem with Super Mario Bros, Pinocchio the Cars characters, various mob movies and depictions in pop culture. My fiancé who is Mexican loves old cartoons Speedy Gonzalez, the Tiki Room, Ramone and other supposedly “racist” caricatures.

I just think it’s really interesting that we live in a social media age where it’s celebrated to have the hubris to tell other folks what is offensive as if they know the hearts and minds of content creators, or worse yet as if all members of a single race and/or ethnic group should think monolithically about their portrayal in popular culture.

Do I agree that in some cases content will naturally age itself out of relevance? Yes. Do I think some of the early attempts at inclusion are crude, stereotypical, and in poor taste? Sure, but it takes falling off the bike to learn to ride. And ultimately I think this may prove a futile (if not risky) exercise on neutering artistic expression prospectively to dissect any form of representation to such an extent that all material becomes bland and characterless.

This is the best written comment on the topic. I agree whole heartedly. Thank you for your words.

 

[Brer Panther]

I've read that when Nick Stewart was asked if he found it degrading voicing Brer Bear in Song of the South, he chuckled and said that Disney treated him like a king. So there's that.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Oh I’m sure he was, for that time. Only to be forbade from attending the premiere a few months later, along with the other black cast members.

 

[wdrive]

Oh I’m sure he was, for that time. Only to be forbade from attending the premiere a few months later, along with the other black cast members.

Should the theater not be blamed for that over Disney? Granted they could have moved the premiere but that brings up the question if anyone at Disney knew that they wouldn’t be allowed in.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Should the theater not be blamed for that over Disney? Granted they could have moved the premiere but that brings up the question if anyone at Disney knew that they wouldn’t be allowed in.

I’m not blaming Disney. I was pointing out that even though the black cast were treated well by Disney, they were unfortunately still forced to face racism outside of those recording booths and sets. Just commenting on the racial climate

It wasn’t the theater’s fault either. It was state law in Georgia, where the premiere was held. It’s why Hattie McDaniel was forbidden from attending that premiere and Gone With the Wind’s premiere as well.

 

[wdrive]

I’m not blaming Disney. I was pointing out that even though the black cast were treated well by Disney, they were unfortunately still forced to face racism outside of those recording booths and sets. Just commenting on the racial climate.

So could you turn the whole argument on its head and say Somg of the South was so far ahead of its time it’s own lead actors weren’t even allowed to go see the premiere?

 

[CaptinEO]

Still, You would think if an actor found their characters offensive, they’d speak up about it or wouldn’t play the part.

I agree. But my point had nothing to do with actors seeing content as offensive.

I'm agreeing with the poster above me that Cars has stereotypes.

James Baskett played what is seen as a stereotype character but doesn't mean he did it to knowingly portray stereotypes or was unwilling.

What was OK for James Baskett wasn't ok for members of the NAACP. I think it's important to not generalize a race. One person of a race liking or disliking something doesn't speak for an entire race or culture.

 

[el_super]

I just think it’s really interesting that we live in a social media age where it’s celebrated to have the hubris to tell other folks what is offensive as if they know the hearts and minds of content creators, or worse yet as if all members of a single race and/or ethnic group should think monolithically about their portrayal in popular culture.

People don't have to know or understand the intent of a content creator, to find something offensive or not. That's just part of the nature of communication.

I've said before here that I don't think Walt Disney was being malicious in creating Song of the South, but was definitely ignorant on the state of race relations at the time. Overall though, intent matters little in how the content is perceived. I know there are people who really like the nostalgic stereotypes depicted in recent films like CARS, but I don't think they will be around forever (the people or the depictions). Eventualy those depictions will be awkward and offensive in their own right and Disney will remove them.

Gotta keep moving forward...

 

[CaptinEO]

Captain EO came back because Michael Jackson died.... not because of anything the fans did.

I mean ... I hope not because of anything the fans did.

People had been trying to bring back Captain EO for a long time, before Michael died. When he died their argument got stronger. I had seen tons of Captain EO stuff all over fan sites since the early 2000s.

 

[DrAlice]

In the grand scheme of things, the ride is about telling someone that they shouldn't bother trying to leave their "home" because trouble will find them.

To be fair, the stories of Alice in Wonderland and The Wizard of Oz have the same message. There's no place like home, after all.

Yes, I understand the racial context is different in the movie Song of the South. However, in the context of animatronic animals, I'm not sure that the message is much different than the other two stories. At least, I don't think that's how most people "read" Splash Mountain and why this is such a controversy for some. In any case, this change was just a matter of time. The Song of the South origins of the ride were always a ticking time bomb, IMO.

 

[Model3 McQueen]

In the grand scheme of things, the ride is about telling someone that they shouldn't bother trying to leave their "home" because trouble will find them. An attempt to escape to a better life is immediately threatened and proven to be folly. You will ultimately be happier if you stay in your place, where you are meant to be.

It's not a great story at all. But it sure is colorful.

You elaborated on my explanation, but ultimately It's still brer rabbits story. It's Splash Mountain's story. We're just along for the ride.

I mean Haunted Mansion is telling us we could be happy haunts so we should die and join them. So perhaps that should be rethemed because it encourages suicide? Or pirates shows how much fun it could be to be a criminal vandal terrorizing innocent people.

They're all stories, and we're just along for the ride. I think it's a bit unfair to pick on one subjectively bad message, and not the others.