This Board's Seeming Hatred of Studio Ghibli

[wdwswan&dolphin]

What is the reason why most of the people on this board absolutely hate the films of Hayao Miyazaki and Studio Ghibli? I'd really like to know.

 

[DisneyFan 2000]

Well, I don't like them because on the one hand they try to make a really realistic, life-like story, and a minute later they add all these strange creatures. I don't like the mish mash of Fantasy and realism. Either one? Sure, why not! But both don't fit together in my opinion.

I also don't like the fact that they don't use ANY computer effects. From animated films of modern age I expect a bit more. I'm not saying 50% should be CG (like Atlantis for example) but shading effects and some camera movements would be nice here and there!

That's my opinion.

 

[barnum42]

I can't say that I hate this studio having never heard of it. However I've seen Spirited Away which a friend recommended as a superb film. Whilst the story was certainly interesting, the qulaity of the animation is, to be totally honest, pretty poor straight to video cheapquel / Saturday morning dross.

Good animation should have a believable life, this does not. The characters had limited stiff movement and expression.

 

[wdwswan&dolphin]

I can't say that I hate this studio having never heard of it. However I've seen Spirited Away which a friend recommended as a superb film. Whilst the story was certainly interesting, the qulaity of the animation is, to be totally honest, pretty poor straight to video cheapquel / Saturday morning dross.

Good animation should have a believable life, this does not. The characters had limited stiff movement and expression.

Well, in my opinion, Disney full-animation is somewhat unrealistic----who in real life is a "jello person", anyway?
Read this: http://www.noderunner.net/~llin/old/mmltraffic/5July02.html#4


"Semi-related to the previous thread (something of this week's theme) was a "US vs. Japan Animation style" thread. Ben Bowen spotted on Don Bluth's site, "We find that Anime has great design, layout and special effects, but we are not overwhelmed by the actual character animation. The characters do not really "come to life" for us, like classical animation. The product sometimes reminds us of the old anime TV series, "Speed Racer". We don't mean any disrespect by that comment. While we really enjoyed Princess Mononoke, the animation was only so-so for us."

I posted a link to an article this debate (originally posted last year).

Warren Savage wrote, "American audiences are 'trained' to look for certain things: full animation (every moving object changes every frame); 'rubberband' animation with a lot of ease-ins, ease-outs and overshoots; exact lip-sync; exaggerated body language and facial expressions; <ADD here list this to>. (I wanted to add the double-bounce walk, but it might not really fit into this list.)

If they don't see these things in sufficient quantity, they seem to judge the animation as being cheaper.

They're not trained to notice: Detailed backgrounds; subtle shifts between background elements to create an illusion of a moving camera; subtle changes in a character's facial expressions (even when a character is shown frozen still and staring at something, the animators will probably animate the glints in his or her eyes); group or crowd scenes with many characters independently animated; subtle character acting; 'camera' dollies, trucks and cranes (these shots take a LOT of time to animate; <.add to this list here>.

Of course, Japanese animation also has some cliches -- The "I'm embarrassed" hand-on-the-back-of-the-head pose, and the hair that gets spikey when the character gets angry or rattled come to mind. But, it's part of anime film language. Western film (and animation) has its own cliches."

James Vandenberg added, "I knew a couple of animators from Disney, and both looked down on anime, because of the lack of "real character animation". I believe this means lack of wanabe3D, and over expression. See I find traditional "disneyesque" animation is riddled with over reaction and expression to get the point across. So when these people dont see Mai's mouth wiggle and do the textbook expressions that these studios are taught to use, they automatically put it down to poor character expression. Personally, I find the work from Ghibli to be oozing with character and emotion, its subtle, and real, not bloated expressions and over movement.

I dont put down disney's animation techniques simply because I dont really like all that over expression, because I appreciate the tradition, but the same respect should be seen visa versa, Im sure Ghibli could do a movie with all that goofy animation style we see here, but thankfully they have a different style and a different path to go down.

Ghibli does not need to win the respect of these people, the studios work speaks for itself and countless millions from all over the world love and charish the films that Ghibli makes for us, if they cannot see the beauty then it's their loss. It's a shame though, that those opinions might stop people from picking up a Ghibli movie the next time they're at the local blockbusters."

Sharon Westfall mused, "I think US animation studios put a lot more emphasis on matching mouth movements than the Japanese. Even when watching the movies in Japanese language, the mouths still don't match. I'd think that maybe for a studio to put in so much effort in getting details like that perfect, it may make them feel that another studio's lack of this effort inferior to theirs. And truthfully, I think this attitude probably goes both ways across the ocean.""

EDIT: To quote your signature, barnum42, "We could learn a lot from crayons: They can have weird names and are different colours… but they all exist very nicely in the same box."

 

[wdwswan&dolphin]

Also: http://www.animationnation.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004362

 

[SirNim]

I'm all for unique animation and storytelling styles.

 

[Testtrack321]

Studio Ghibli is amazing, I really like Anime, but just because of that it dosn't mean it's better than everything the US pumps out.

 

[barnum42]

By the way Swan - I'm not an American audience

You don't need to post an involved defense of the film to me. I enjoyed it, despite the cheap animation.

I've no problems with the layout and composition of the piece, and as I said it had a good story, which ultimately is what carries the film. However trying to hide cheap animation behind an exuse of "style" is, let's be honest, one hell of a cop out. It's like me saying "I'm not a bad guitar player, it's my style" :lol:

 

[MKCustodial]

Well, I don't know the studio you mentioned, but if you mean the guys that did Spirited Away, no, I don't like it. I hate Anime. The only thing I can barely watch is Knoghts of the Zodiac, and I do mean barely.

 

[LoisMustDie]

The Anime shows themselves are great...shows like Fullmetal Alchemist or Samurai Champloo or Revolutionary Girl Utena. Just don't go looking for fully-realized animation. That's probably why everybody is disappointed. It's a different kind of animation, and people think it's crap because it's not the industry standard. That doesn't mean it's bad...it's just a different way to express the emotions of characters.

 

[MKCustodial]

I don't really think of "industry standard". I mean, Disney animation is different to Warner animation, which is different to Hanna-Barbera, which is different to the Fleischer Studios. You may think of it as "mainstream", but to me there are very obvious differences. Nowadays, everything has that same "sterile" look to it, save very few exceptions, and the CGI craze hasn't really helped this problem, in my view. And to me, anime looks and fews the same, from the 70's 'till today. Add to it the fact that US animation is starting to rip-off of anime (Teen Titans comes to mind) and it all goes downhill.

 

[KevinPage]

I had no idea there was a Miyazaki backlash here. I myself never ehard anyone really even talk about it.

Princess Monokoe is one of the best films I've ever seen. Spirited Away was good as well. My Neighbor Totoro was cute in a weird way & Castle in the Sky was okay.

I haven't seen the remainder of his earlier films though or the ones re-released by Disney recently.

 

[wdwswan&dolphin]

I don't really think of "industry standard". I mean, Disney animation is different to Warner animation, which is different to Hanna-Barbera, which is different to the Fleischer Studios. You may think of it as "mainstream", but to me there are very obvious differences. Nowadays, everything has that same "sterile" look to it, save very few exceptions, and the CGI craze hasn't really helped this problem, in my view. And to me, anime looks and fews the same, from the 70's 'till today. Add to it the fact that US animation is starting to rip-off of anime (Teen Titans comes to mind) and it all goes downhill.

For me, Disney's films also feel the same.

 

[LoisMustDie]

For me, Disney's films also feel the same.

Tarzan and Fantasia feel the same to you?

 

[wdwswan&dolphin]

Tarzan and Fantasia feel the same to you?

Of course, there are some exceptions----like My Neighbors the Yamadas (http://nausicaa.net/miyazaki/yamada/) and The Sky-Colored Seed (http://nausicaa.net/miyazaki/sorairo/) are for Studio Ghibli.

 

[Ashitaka]

I find myself absolutely shocked by this thread. I just can't understand how anyone who has actually seen Spirited Away or Princess Mononoke can refer to it's animation as "cheap."

This isn't Pokemon type stuff coming out of Studio Ghibli. Don't judge their work based on some TV show you've seen just because it can all fall under the very general heading of "anime."

Pixar's John Lassiter considers Hideo Miyazaki the world's master animator.

I can understand how it's style doesn't agree with everyone. And some people might not like how their stories aren't as straight forward as Disney's. Studio Ghibli rarely has a simple good guy-bad guy set-up. Things are far more nuanced than that.

But please, don't call the artwork cheap.

 

[MKCustodial]

Pixar's John Lassiter considers Hideo Miyazaki the world's master animator.

So? The English Patient got tons of Oscars and I don't think it deserved even a nod. Boring, boring movie.

I can understand how it's style doesn't agree with everyone. And some people might not like how their stories aren't as straight forward as Disney's. Studio Ghibli rarely has a simple good guy-bad guy set-up. Things are far more nuanced than that.

But please, don't call the artwork cheap.

Hopefully, I misinterpreted your post, because it seems like you're telling us what to think. I do think the animation is cheap, and very static. That's my opinion.
And you're right, it's a tricky style, one that has been shoved down our throats by the truckloads for far too long. You may not want to copare it to Pokémon or whatever, but do you think that, if not for the anime craze, Disney would even bother to import it and release it worldwide?
Again, it's cool if you like it, but don't tell me that I have to like it too, or not dislike it, or even worse, that what I like is simple compared to what you like, as evidenced by your "simple good guy-bad guy set-up" comment. Just as you don't want to compare animes, I don't think it's fair to compare Hanna-barbera to Warner Bros. animation to Filmation to Disney. They're all different entities and all have their strengths and weaknesses, just like your Studio Ghibli. It's just that you happen to like it, and I don't.

:wave:

 

[Halfling418]

I'm a big movie fan in general, so as long as the story's good, and the characters are well-rounded, it should be worth seeing.

Of course you need to stay away from crappy animation (*cough* direct-to-video sequels) but anime, if done well, has a lot to offer visually. Things don't need to be our definition of realistic if the story does not call for it. That's the reason The Incredibles was not overly detailed and the characters had very exaggerated features--to hark back to comic books to fit the "super hero" genre.

I think that every form of animation has it's place, and should never grow outdated. Variety is the spice of life!

 

[barnum42]

I find myself absolutely shocked by this thread. I just can't understand how anyone who has actually seen Spirited Away or Princess Mononoke can refer to it's animation as "cheap."

I have seen Spirited Away and I enjoyed the film. I'm not sure what substances the author was on, but it made for an interesting story.

However, the animation - that is the moving image - lacks weight, fluidity and subtlety. Just as I'll say the same about the character of Anakin Skywalker in Episodes II and III of Star Wars

 

[Ashitaka]

So? The English Patient got tons of Oscars and I don't think it deserved even a nod. Boring, boring movie.

Well, there's something we both agree on. :lol:

Hopefully, I misinterpreted your post, because it seems like you're telling us what to think. I do think the animation is cheap, and very static. That's my opinion.

I'm sorry if I came out rude sounding. On this subject I get a little overpassionate. We'll just have to disagree. Although I will give you this: if you were making the "cheap" comment on earlier Studio Ghibli films, such as Nausicaa, I wouldn't put up a fight. They clearly didn't have the money Disney does to make truly, smooth fluid animation. But on the more recent ones, such as Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away, I find the animation really first-class. But that's my opinion and you can clearly disagree. Matter of tastes really.

Again, it's cool if you like it, but don't tell me that I have to like it too, or not dislike it, or even worse, that what I like is simple compared to what you like, as evidenced by your "simple good guy-bad guy set-up" comment.

Actually, I meant that as a reasonable cause for not enjoying Studio Ghibli as much as other animated films. This is entertainment after all. Sometimes you want something straight-forward.

Just as you don't want to compare animes, I don't think it's fair to compare Hanna-barbera to Warner Bros. animation to Filmation to Disney. They're all different entities and all have their strengths and weaknesses, just like your Studio Ghibli. It's just that you happen to like it, and I don't..

True enough. But we'll always have the English Patient.

:wave: