The Problem With Disney Parks Is Our Inflexibility

tman2000

Member
Original Poster
I read about all the things wrong at the World lately. Effects don't work. The place is too crowded. Everything's designed to rush people through everything.

So, how could they make it better? More importantly, why would they make it better?

I for one like the old way of wandering expansive paths with many benches and trees and exploring immersive lands. I don't know why that model worked back when, and why it stopped working. Why they needed $90 a day tickets. Maybe they just make insanely more profits now compared to then, and even when they do 'bad' with sales they are still doing way better than the old days.

Still - and I'm an econ major - I think about what can change their way of doing things. Let's leave out the discussion about competition (I don't mean Uni, although I'd love to see a Texas or Virginia park that is more than a Six Flags try to do the Disney thing). I'm talking about Disney's model.

Okay, so a lesson. There's this iPhone app called Uber. It's like a taxi service, but the app organizes independent drivers who use their own cars in their spare time to get paid to drive you. Uber has this pricing model where, during busy times like New Year's Eve, a standard fare spikes up to a crazy high price. This causes endless complaints by economically ignorant people, who talk of price gouging. The thing is that scarcity is scarcity. Not everyone's going to get a cab New Year's Eve. However, those who decide they really need one and want to fork over the cash will at least be able to get a cab. Also, the higher fares will encourage more drivers to stay out working rather than partying themselves.

This situation occurs during disasters. Many people complained about price gouging of gasoline during recent East Coast hurricanes. Gouging is good! If you can survive without gas for a few days, a high price will make it so that there's enough gas around for people and services that decide their situation really needs it because they'd be willing to pay the price. Also, the high prices will cause fuel trucks who normally service other regions to do the extra miles of bringing the gas to a place where it sells for a premium.

Price is not some scam. Price is merely an indicator of scarcity that helps people determine how best to use a resource.

Now let's talk about about the "E-Ticket" system. This was perfect. It made entry into the park itself much cheaper, and gave a reason for the park to be configured more for leisure. It meant slower rides like the gondola. It meant a Main Street USA that was an exhibit and not a merch store. It also meant rides that were designed 'just right' for the needs of the masses.

We have these darn magic bands. We need a ticket book system!!!

Imagine having to pay a little bit more for high demand rides. If you love love love Space Mountain then you buy more tickets for that and forgo the mickey hat and R2D2 popcorn bucket. If you just love the ambiance of the parks, you forgo some rides for an extra night at the hotel. If people are really into C-ticket toddler rides, those will make money and Disney will build more of them and thus the lines will shrink.

I imagine 3 direct benefits from such a system:
1) More immersion and ambiance, with cheaper entry tickets. Disney will want you to come to the park, will beg you to come, so they can entice you to buy tickets to their rides. There will be more pleasant places to park (your behind). Imagine that photospot in the back of Big Thunder Railroad as a pleasant and large and shaded seating area with a couple of food carts. You sit there to relax, but the whole time you have to watch Thunder Railroad steam by again and again and again. Cha-ching, two more E-Tickets. This combination of making the park pleasant and making the ride environments enticing would bring a whole lot more magic and vacation to the magic vacation.
2) Better rides! Obviously, they have to pull out all the stops to convince people to ride again and again. Yes, I would pay more money total on a Disney trip if what I paid for directly correlated unit for unit to a better experience. The rides would meet the most prolific demographic. However, this is better for those with the kiddies. Those of us without would still have top-notch rides, they would just cost a little. That's the point!
3)More imaginative expansion. With this model, you have a clear business plan. There's none of that mysterious question of whether fixing a Yeti will get X number more people to come to Animal Kingdom instead of Wizarding World. Fixing the Yeti will get more Yeti tickets. This means that expansion and update decisions will be much more targeted. Right now decisions are made by this bizarre combining of marketing mojo and merchandise malfeasance. It's just so horrible. Disney can now expand Adventureland with a specific formula: ticketed rides with a pleasant environment built around them to entice guests. If a ride pulls ticket sales then the expansion is exactly appropriate.

I think Disney abandoned this model because of us. We are lazy. We are grumpy. We don't want to pay more for rides.

However, we are paying much much more for rides. We are paying almost $60 more per day, and the parks are getting mismanaged and crowded. It's that corporate happy medium of everyone just being happy enough to not "never come back". That's not good enough for me. I'm less and less enthusiastic about Disney all the time.

Sure, I'm not 'never coming back'. However, that doesn't mean I have to really go back 'this year'. And that decision is getting easier to make. I am in fact returning this year, for Harry Potter and to a lesser extent the mine train, but I'm also accommodating family that wants to go and I'm not sure I'm really enticed enough.

That minimum thing of the charm and the pleasant stay are not cutting it. And while you're only 3, or 4, or 7 once - so that meet and greet might really do it for you - many of us including the young ones, are just not excited enough about old rides amidst large crowds in unpleasant constant heat.

To conclude, here's my future vision (assuming this ticket system):

Disney is split into about 3 "zones". The Boardwalk/Hollywood/EPCOT zone. The Magic Kingdom/Seven Seas zone. And the Animal Kingdom/futurepark zone.

You have 2 choices: pay for entry to one of any of the zones (or a hopper price, regardless this will be cheap), each with its own parking, transit hub, and downtown-disney shopping/entertainment area, OR if you stay at any on-property hotel it's simply free.

Then, all the rides cost money tied to a magic band account. The fast pass and mydisneyexperience system will help you price the ride costs and track your total budget.

This system will encourage more people to just 'come to Disney' on vacation. The stress factor will go way down if the perception is a pleasant base experience for cheap. But then all the stores, the restaurants, the rides - it's like Vegas. You go home happy, and you'd rather imagine the money you spent never really existed in the first place.

Imagine a Main Street USA that extended along 7 seas lagoon by the entrance - it could have like a Charleston or Annapolis theme. This area is free to hotel guests and has restaurants and shops and can enter the park through multiple entry points (TTC is the main entry gate). The MK is no longer constrained by a gate, so the hub and spoke thing won't be as relevant. This will allow for much more immersive environments, and they can even use magic bands with little LEDs for navigation or something.

The boardwalk/EPCOT doesn't even need to be explained. Just imagine though that the boat from World Showcase Lagoon could just take you all the way to the Tower of Terror with no gate. Imagine if future world was EPCOT and World Showcase was simply its own area. See what I'm saying?
 

Pocahontas

Well-Known Member
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cw1982

Well-Known Member
I'm not an economics major by any means, but here are my general thoughts in response to your post:

1) Leaving out the discussion about competition makes this whole thing null and void. As an economics major, you should know that competition is always a huge factor in any market (unless we're talking about monopolies, which does NOT apply to WDW since they have clear competition).

2) You may want to rethink the wording of your "lesson." Coming here and using analogies that imply that you find people here to be ignorant is no way to earn their attention.

3) Sorry... price gouging is not good, no matter how you may try to argue it. Using your example, people have to have gas to get around no matter what the price, and no one can afford to not go to work just because gas prices shot up. So your example doesn't really work.

4) Disney doesn't want guests foregoing the popcorn buckets and Mickey ears. Those have high markups on them.

5) Today's guests will not like the idea of ticketed rides. Doing this would put Disney on the same par as local carnivals, and they're still trying to keep up some appearance of being elite (although their success here is debatable, depending on who you ask).

6) In response to the idea that fixing the yeti would mean more sales for EE rides, think again. The only people who generally care about that yeti are the people who know that it's broken, more than likely because they come here and read about it. The average Disney guest who is only there once every several years (if repeating visits at all) probably doesn't notice. So Disney would still get plenty of tickets for EE without spending a dime more on the yeti than they have now.

7) You just insulted your audience again. Not only are you calling them "ignorant," but now we're adding "lazy" and "grumpy" to the list, followed by a comment about not wanting to pay for rides. You're exactly right. I don't want to pay for rides. I want to know how much to expect to pay and enjoy the entire experience, but either way: stop insulting your audience.

8) Prove that our costs per day are up $60 over what they would be if we were paying per ride. I would love to see the math on that.

9) You said to forget about competition, yet you just said you'll be returning to Orlando to experience Disney's competition.

10) The "admission per zoning" thing doesn't really work because many of those areas, when lumped the way you have, are not areas that can be experienced in just one day. Besides the MK and AK "zonings" don't really make sense... what else is there at the Seven Seas other than resort hopping? And what future park? TDO can't handle the four parks that they have.

11) I would not be less stressed out while on vacation if I had to sit there and think about whether or not I could afford to spend more to ride my favorite rides x number of times. That would make the budgeting more stressful, and would make me enjoy my trip much less. I don't want to have to constantly be reminded of my budget. I want to be able to go and enjoy myself, knowing it's already covered.

12) "You'd rather imagine the money you spent never really existed in the first place?" If that's not a backwards statement, I don't know what is.

13) The magic bands with LED's comment makes no sense.

14) You've made a couple of references here to not needing gates, but even your original description of the system requires some kind of park admission. The areas you're talking about, particularly for Epcot/HS, span too much area to NOT need gates somewhere.
 
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DisneyDaver

Well-Known Member
I'm also an economics major ... and I just don't see it.

Besides, I think Disney figured out long ago that the money is not in the rides, it's in the hotels and food. As long as they have enough rides to fill the hotels and get people to spend on food, I think WDW is plenty happy. And since we continue to flock there, there is no real need to spend money on new rides.

Now, if the competition (Universal Orlando) takes away enough WDW market share, then there will be some big changes.
 

Kuzcotopia

Well-Known Member
My absolute favorite joke:

A physicist, a chemist and an economist are stranded on an island with no food. A can of soup washes ashore and they grab it.

The physicist says, "Lets smash the can open with a rock."

The chemist says, "Let’s build a fire and heat the can first."

The economist says, "Lets assume that we have a can-opener..."

Seriously, I think the competitive model is actually alive and well, and it's knowledge. Those who know WDW and understand how to plan have a better time than those who drive around Orlando looking for the entrance to Disneyland.

I doubt there are few on these boards who want to compete based on money. Most of us already have an advantage based on knowledge.
 

FettFan

Well-Known Member
This situation occurs during disasters. Many people complained about price gouging of gasoline during recent East Coast hurricanes. Gouging is good! If you can survive without gas for a few days, a high price will make it so that there's enough gas around for people and services that decide their situation really needs it because they'd be willing to pay the price. Also, the high prices will cause fuel trucks who normally service other regions to do the extra miles of bringing the gas to a place where it sells for a premium.

Price gouging for essential products and services during an emergency is NOT good. In fact, it's so NOT good that most states have made it illegal under profiteering and extortion statutes.
 

FettFan

Well-Known Member
My absolute favorite joke:

A physicist, a chemist and an economist are stranded on an island with no food. A can of soup washes ashore and they grab it.

The physicist says, "Lets smash the can open with a rock."

The chemist says, "Let’s build a fire and heat the can first."

The economist says, "Lets assume that we have a can-opener..."

And the historian pops out behind the tree, sums up the economist, then asks the physicist and chemist if they've ever heard of the Donner Party.
 

raven

Well-Known Member
I don't think economics is what's really at play in the Disney parks. With the downfall of many major attractions, effects, buildings and other areas on property, maintenance, increasing low pay and benifit cuts for their employees yet the ticket prices have sky-rocketed beyond any other park on the planet, merchandise and food prices have gone way up (yet smaller food portions), etc. They've added "special after hours events" in the parks and separate ticket events elswhere on property which is also pure income. Even the Run Disney Marathon events cost on average $200/person which doesn't include entrance to the parks or even parking.

So where exactly are these extra millions of dollars going? Check the executive bonus's stats for 2013.
 

tman2000

Member
Original Poster
I'm not an economics major by any means, but here are my general thoughts in response to your post:

1) Leaving out the discussion about competition makes this whole thing null and void. As an economics major, you should know that competition is always a huge factor in any market (unless we're talking about monopolies, which does NOT apply to WDW since they have clear competition).

2) You may want to rethink the wording of your "lesson." Coming here and using analogies that imply that you find people here to be ignorant is no way to earn their attention.

3) Sorry... price gouging is not good, no matter how you may try to argue it. Using your example, people have to have gas to get around no matter what the price, and no one can afford to not go to work just because gas prices shot up. So your example doesn't really work.

4) Disney doesn't want guests foregoing the popcorn buckets and Mickey ears. Those have high markups on them.

5) Today's guests will not like the idea of ticketed rides. Doing this would put Disney on the same par as local carnivals, and they're still trying to keep up some appearance of being elite (although their success here is debatable, depending on who you ask).

6) In response to the idea that fixing the yeti would mean more sales for EE rides, think again. The only people who generally care about that yeti are the people who know that it's broken, more than likely because they come here and read about it. The average Disney guest who is only there once every several years (if repeating visits at all) probably doesn't notice. So Disney would still get plenty of tickets for EE without spending a dime more on the yeti than they have now.

7) You just insulted your audience again. Not only are you calling them "ignorant," but now we're adding "lazy" and "grumpy" to the list, followed by a comment about not wanting to pay for rides. You're exactly right. I don't want to pay for rides. I want to know how much to expect to pay and enjoy the entire experience, but either way: stop insulting your audience.

8) Prove that our costs per day are up $60 over what they would be if we were paying per ride. I would love to see the math on that.

9) You said to forget about competition, yet you just said you'll be returning to Orlando to experience Disney's competition.

10) The "admission per zoning" thing doesn't really work because many of those areas, when lumped the way you have, are not areas that can be experienced in just one day. Besides the MK and AK "zonings" don't really make sense... what else is there at the Seven Seas other than resort hopping? And what future park? TDO can't handle the four parks that they have.

11) I would not be less stressed out while on vacation if I had to sit there and think about whether or not I could afford to spend more to ride my favorite rides x number of times. That would make the budgeting more stressful, and would make me enjoy my trip much less. I don't want to have to constantly be reminded of my budget. I want to be able to go and enjoy myself, knowing it's already covered.

12) "You'd rather imagine the money you spent never really existed in the first place?" If that's not a backwards statement, I don't know what is.

13) The magic bands with LED's comment makes no sense.

14) You've made a couple of references here to not needing gates, but even your original description of the system requires some kind of park admission. The areas you're talking about, particularly for Epcot/HS, span too much area to NOT need gates somewhere.
This situation occurs during disasters. Many people complained about price gouging of gasoline during recent East Coast hurricanes. Gouging is good! If you can survive without gas for a few days, a high price will make it so that there's enough gas around for people and services that decide their situation really needs it because they'd be willing to pay the price. Also, the high prices will cause fuel trucks who normally service other regions to do the extra miles of bringing the gas to a place where it sells for a premium.

Price gouging for essential products and services during an emergency is NOT good. In fact, it's so NOT good that most states have made it illegal under profiteering and extortion statutes.
This situation occurs during disasters. Many people complained about price gouging of gasoline during recent East Coast hurricanes. Gouging is good! If you can survive without gas for a few days, a high price will make it so that there's enough gas around for people and services that decide their situation really needs it because they'd be willing to pay the price. Also, the high prices will cause fuel trucks who normally service other regions to do the extra miles of bringing the gas to a place where it sells for a premium.

Price gouging for essential products and services during an emergency is NOT good. In fact, it's so NOT good that most states have made it illegal under profiteering and extortion statutes.
This situation occurs during disasters. Many people complained about price gouging of gasoline during recent East Coast hurricanes. Gouging is good! If you can survive without gas for a few days, a high price will make it so that there's enough gas around for people and services that decide their situation really needs it because they'd be willing to pay the price. Also, the high prices will cause fuel trucks who normally service other regions to do the extra miles of bringing the gas to a place where it sells for a premium.

Price gouging for essential products and services during an emergency is NOT good. In fact, it's so NOT good that most states have made it illegal under profiteering and extortion statutes.

You're proving my point though. It's illegal because of popular outrage and perceived harm due to economic ignorance. Laws do not equal the smart solution every time.

Price gouging is not exploitation, it's because of scarcity. It occurs because there just aren't enough for everybody. By illegalizing gouging, government only create long lines with no solutions. Gouging lets those resources be used by those who really are willing to pay the premium, and it encourages suppliers to get more resources into town.

That's the thing about Disney. Ticketed rides would absolutely improve the quality of the parks, but we cannot handle this - as the many replies have shown.
 

MDactor1980

Well-Known Member
That's the thing about Disney. Ticketed rides would absolutely improve the quality of the parks, but we cannot handle this - as the many replies have shown.

I think the "many" replies prove the debate over "ride tickets" and why it is obsolete for WDW. People aren't debating out of fear and not being able to "handle" it - they're debating because they don't agree and have better reasons why not.

And the business about price gouging... I just... I can't...
 

wm49rs

A naughty bit o' crumpet
Premium Member
You're proving my point though. It's illegal because of popular outrage and perceived harm due to economic ignorance. Laws do not equal the smart solution every time.

Price gouging is not exploitation, it's because of scarcity. It occurs because there just aren't enough for everybody. By illegalizing gouging, government only create long lines with no solutions. Gouging lets those resources be used by those who really are willing to pay the premium, and it encourages suppliers to get more resources into town.

That's the thing about Disney. Ticketed rides would absolutely improve the quality of the parks, but we cannot handle this - as the many replies have shown.
Fairly certain anyone could handle Disney investing in more rides. Certainly easier that the prattle tossed about here....
 

cw1982

Well-Known Member
You're proving my point though. It's illegal because of popular outrage and perceived harm due to economic ignorance. Laws do not equal the smart solution every time.

Price gouging is not exploitation, it's because of scarcity. It occurs because there just aren't enough for everybody. By illegalizing gouging, government only create long lines with no solutions. Gouging lets those resources be used by those who really are willing to pay the premium, and it encourages suppliers to get more resources into town.

That's the thing about Disney. Ticketed rides would absolutely improve the quality of the parks, but we cannot handle this - as the many replies have shown.

Did you even read our replies? As I established, there's no guarantee that ticketed rides would mean improved rides because of Disney's mentality that their name means what they do is good enough. Price gouging will only do one of two things: either force people to give up other things that they need or drive up their credit card debt.

Oh, and btw, I love how you're trying to justify price gouging in the first place. That shows me that you think Disney should be price gouging, which is asinine.

I'm done here. No use in combating a lack of logic with common sense.
 
Aside from all the economic variables not taken into account in your plan, which I am sure there are quite a few such as inflation I think the biggest point you are missing is that majority of the customer base doesn't care but not because they are lazy. Sure, if you follow Disney fan sites you are aware of what some would consider a multitude of problems such as the yeti not working, the imagination pavilion, dust on the movie in Soarin, etc. But these problems are generally only noticed by the visitor that has gone to WDW several times and is generally a Disney fanatic. They are not noticed by the first time or casual visitor or for the most part the target audience, which is children.

When a first time visitor or a casual visitor returns from their trip and they are telling you what a great ride they think Soarin was just try saying to them "Yeah but did you see how the dust really effects the quality of the video" They would look at you like you have two heads. Or try telling 5 year old who just rode the current incarnation of Figment that the original was better or isn't it a shame the upstairs of the pavilion is closed.

As fans of Disney we have come to expect perfection and often times anything short of it results in disappointment. Sometimes we should just sit back and enjoy the show and try to remember what our first time on Soarin was like and did we care about the dust.

As a side note, ee tend to forget at times that ultimately Disney is a corporation who is trying to maximize profits for their investors. That's the goal. So if they accomplish that task it is reasonable to assume their board will get hefty bonuses.
 

Kuzcotopia

Well-Known Member
You're proving my point though. It's illegal because of popular outrage and perceived harm due to economic ignorance. Laws do not equal the smart solution every time.

Price gouging is not exploitation, it's because of scarcity. It occurs because there just aren't enough for everybody. By illegalizing gouging, government only create long lines with no solutions. Gouging lets those resources be used by those who really are willing to pay the premium, and it encourages suppliers to get more resources into town.

That's the thing about Disney. Ticketed rides would absolutely improve the quality of the parks, but we cannot handle this - as the many replies have shown.

Okay, so a Lesson. I think the real problem with Economics as a field of study is its ignorance of "soft variables." Take agriculture for example. If there were a world-wide disaster that destroyed 2/3 of the world's food production, almost every major social science would predict world wide chaos. Political Science predicts wars and food riots, Psychology predicts fear and hoarding of resources, Philosophy predicts loss of morality and personal freedoms. . . All science and tech research will grind to a halt, medical advances would cease, and so on. . . basically a cycle of serious, paralyzing problems that will take a generation to repair.

What would Economics predict? Well, agriculture in most industrialized countries only represents a small proportion of their GDP, so they'd probably predict a small recession lasting a quarter, followed by a bounceback next season. . . or some such nonsense.

They very fact that you say "the customers are the problem" in a service industry with a very elastic demand . . . IS the problem.
 

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