Dear Prudence
Well-Known Member
THE DREAM, honestly! In both cases, there's less chance of anyone seeing me happy-cry the entire time.That happened to me too last June. I also got a Small World boat to myself
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Tiana's Bayou Adventure: Disneyland Watch & Discussion
- Thread starter Californian Elitist
- Start date
Wonder if they're gonna drop any new info/art on Splash redo since it's Black History Month
CaptinEO
Well-Known Member
Brer stories are actually part of African American history. A european fairy tale about a frog princess is not.
Midwest Elitist
Well-Known Member
The problem you run into though is that writing down those stories and dialect is misappropriating and insulting the culture somehow.
I wish Disney actually communicated where the Brer's are from. It was actually an AA man from Georgia who is a descendant of slaves that convinced me to actually watch Song of the South. Which is why I went from being pro-retheme to anti. I absolutely hate being gaslit.
I found it to be a garbage live action movie with great cartoon sequences. That's pretty much it.
The Princess and the Frog is absolutely part of African American history.
EDIT: Splash Mountain is based on stories written by a white man, who appropriated African and African American culture for profit. I'd claim PatF before SotS.
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Mac Tonight
Well-Known Member
I always thought The Frog Prince (PatF’s source material/inspiration) was German?
CaptinEO
Well-Known Member
The Frog Princess is a German Folktale.
While Harris did modify and appropriate the stories they are still based in African American stories and are likely the only surviving documentation of these tales.
The Princess and the Frog is African American history. The Frog Princess is not the same. I’m referring to the 2009 film.
The Uncle Remus Tales, particularly Uncle Remus himself, is not African American history. I wouldn’t trust anything he wrote down, personally. Also, I’m pretty sure the original African tales are still in existence.
THE 1HAPPY HAUNT
Well-Known Member
All cultres are 'appropriated'. Ever have Chinesse food? Ever have Mexican food? Delicious. We wouldn't have that if not for appropriation. Some of the best stuff comes from it. Not all appropriation is bad.
Brer Panther
Well-Known Member
To my knowledge, Joel Chandler Harris never claimed to have created the Brers himself.
GoneForGood
Well-Known Member
The only thing JCH did was invent a stereotype and take credit for them, the majority of Brer Rabbit tales are told pretty much verbatim from the oral sources of Black and Indigenous groups. Brer Rabbit is ours. JCH didn't make up the Tar Baby/Laughing Place/Goober Patch/various other Brer stories, he literally just pretty much "stole" them after he heard them from the mouths of African Americans. Without the stereotype involved in the stories, they could very well be the "true" tales black and indigenous people have been telling for years and years. I say that as someone who really does not like that "character" much at all. He isn't necessary to the stories.
Regardless, credit should be given back to the rightful owners. And should have been in the first place.
Anansi was more the "original" version of Brer Rabbit, even having his own Tar baby tale and they sometimes do come up every now and then in pop culture. (but I could be getting that wrong because there IS a hare in West African mythology, which might be a different thing entirely but the name has slipped.)
Regardless, credit should be given back to the rightful owners. And should have been in the first place.
Anansi was more the "original" version of Brer Rabbit, even having his own Tar baby tale and they sometimes do come up every now and then in pop culture. (but I could be getting that wrong because there IS a hare in West African mythology, which might be a different thing entirely but the name has slipped.)
GoneForGood
Well-Known Member
ACTUALLY, I should state that there ARE some differences in the details that JCH uses. In some versions of Tar Baby, it involves Brer Fox and Brer Rabbit building a house, in which Brer Rabbit ends up tricking Brer Fox and eating his food that he stashed by the river. Making Brer Fox so mad he created the Tar Baby to trap and eat him. While the JCH and SOTS telling doesn't include that part of the story.
There are differences in details and the way some of them flow, but not in a way that means he completely made up the stories himself.
There are differences in details and the way some of them flow, but not in a way that means he completely made up the stories himself.
Not saying he did. However, to say that the Uncle Remus Tales are of African/African American history/literature is unfair, in my opinion. Yes, the stories are appropriated and “stolen,” but if you’ve read some of the stories, especially ones with Uncle Remus, they do not appear as having being written by an African American (they weren’t) and very much come off as appeasement to white Americans who were reading about an African American character. If one has read enough 19th century literature by African Americans, they would assume that no self-respecting African American writer would have created such a character as Remus.
Yes, the Brers originate from African/African American folklore, but SotS is not necessarily based on the original tales as they are before appropriation. It’s not like Walt Disney consulted African folklorists. The movie is based on version a white author wrote, versions that were read to many white children that included a fictional black character that white people loved (for obvious reasons).
GoneForGood
Well-Known Member
Honestly, after some thought, I suppose I can agree on some of this.
(Also, welcome back)
Which is why, what should have happened was Disney putting in actual work to make sure these stories were returned to us, and presented in a way that reflects our culture-- especially if they truly believe in their stories matter, giving the stage to those it belongs to should have been the first step. Which was always my thoughts on this topic. But they've made their decision to abandon the characters entirely, and are going to get away with it by doing bare minimum.
In fact I think I'm going to whip something up for the Imagineering forum whenever I stop procrastinating, I have a few ideas on how I would've gone about this.
Personally, I just hope they get this Tiana plot right. But my doubts grow with everything they put out now.
Dear Prudence
Well-Known Member
But you can trust the stories themselves because they exist outside of the Harris recounts. The Gullah versions, multiple Native nations' versions which include those published by Native newspapers priot to Harris, and others throughout the Caribbean/ diaspora are all identical or near identical. Like, Harris can go to blazes, but the oral literature itself outside of Harris can be trusted.
Absolutely. It’s like saying Disney’s Mulan is a Chinese film. Harris wrote dozens of Brer stories; I don’t for one second believe that every single one of them is written exactly as he heard them from slaves, unchanged, without his own personal spin in them. So many were written that I can and do believe that he made many of them up himself.
I’m upset that the stories weren’t written down from the actual slaves, but history can’t be changed. You’re right that Disney is going to abandon ship. They could have corrected their mistake and do what they usually do when making “ethnic” films: consult people. But they’ve chosen not to. I don’t think it’s the best decision, but they don’t listen to me.
I have zero faith in this PatF ride. I know a lot of people are excited, but I can’t be. I’m expecting to not be happy, mainly because Disney keeps getting things wrong, in my eyes. This will be no different, I assume.
And thank you. Still not necessarily back, just thought I’d drop in for a little. Will most likely dip out again in a few days or less.
Outside of Harris, sure. Definitely.
Dear Prudence
Well-Known Member
That is 100% untrue. Harris did not save them, because other people had published them first. Cherokee newspapers were publishing them first because Brer Rabbit also exists in Cherokee culture, and Brer Rabbit today would not exist without Native influence, particularly the people of the South East, although the people of the North East /Algonquin people (my people) also have the same figure. Also, the Gullah versions are completely intact.
THE 1HAPPY HAUNT
Well-Known Member
Isn't there a popular festival going on at DCA right now called Lunar New Year that people love? That right there is cultural appropriation. Again...many GREAT things come from appropriation that have benefited mankind.