Some complaints are valid.....some not so much

[draybook]

Wasn't one of the other complaints the cost of FP+? Reportedly $2 billion was spent on it. While, I don't know how accurate that number is, even if it was half that amount, a billion bucks (or even half of that) wouldn't that buy at least one new major attraction or show, and/or updates to existing attractions/shows?

I guess my point is, even if the system works, is it worth the time and money Disney spent on it? Not a complaint, or rant, nor an effort to derail this thread, just thought it might help shed some light on where a lot of the complaints about FP+ come from.

I believe it was 2 billion spent on the entire MDE system, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Actually, I could have sworn that it went over budget.

 

[njDizFan]

Even though you have the same number of chairs, a busy restaurant's trick is to maximize those chairs, usually by filling up the early to mid afternoon gaps and/or to get more money out of each customer. Keeping customers coming in past 8 or 9 pm also helps. Serving them quickly (and thus getting them out quickly) is also a good strategy.

Most businesses cannot survive keeping the same number of customers and doing the same old thing. Competition constantly nips at the heals. Just about every business I know, to stay open, has to serve more and more customers. Find a successful business of 20 years ago that's still doing well, and you'll probably discover that they're serving at lest twice as many customers now as they did then.

From an ex-restaurant manager perspective, I do agree with many of these points. Keeping tables filled in late afternoon is a great driver of business(that's why you see that early bird special)but very tricky while staff is transitioning to dinner by prepping/cleaning. But mostly I think the issue is giving the manager,who is on the floor at the time, a pretty large bit of descresion and they want to eliminate that. Often when you go to a restaurant you will notice tables or sections are empty. The manager/GM/owner, whomever, will staff occording to historical averages and perceived neccesity. AS a GM I would look at numbers from last year and current trends and then staff the front/back of the house in relation to those number.

Now this is a balancing act, because it is easy to say, lets bring on a couple of extra servers in case it's busy(since the only get paid $2.13/hr) and let them go if it's slow(based upon that managers discression). Now by doing that you spread out the business and each server would make less money since they are seeing less tables. Or the servers you asked to come in are upset because they had to come to work just to be asked to leave.

Now a compnay the size of Disney should have the analytics to guage the neccesity of having extra labor if they kept track of turnaways etc. Not to mention the 3 empty resaurants at the MK. But it would also rely heavily on the manager on duty to make quick decisions regarding staffing and if that person is not on top of it things can spiral out of control quickly. Either with upset employees or or letting in too many walk -ups and hurting everyone's experience. Also from years of experience a crew that is bored will become complacent.

This is just a case of Disney mostly just going after the guaranteed money and hedging against any possible loss, while in turn possibly losing customer satistication and good will.

 

[englanddg]

From an ex-restaurant manager perspective, I do agree with many of these points. Keeping tables filled in late afternoon is a great driver of business(that's why you see that early bird special)but very tricky while staff is transitioning to dinner by prepping/cleaning. But mostly I think the issue is giving the manager,who is on the floor at the time, a pretty large bit of descresion and they want to eliminate that. Often when you go to a restaurant you will notice tables or sections are empty. The manager/GM/owner, whomever, will staff occording to historical averages and perceived neccesity. AS a GM I would look at numbers from last year and current trends and then staff the front/back of the house in relation to those number.

Now this is a balancing act, because it is easy to say, lets bring on a couple of extra servers in case it's busy(since the only get paid $2.13/hr) and let them go if it's slow(based upon that managers discression). Now by doing that you spread out the business and each server would make less money since they are seeing less tables. Or the servers you asked to come in are upset because they had to come to work just to be asked to leave.

Now a compnay the size of Disney should have the analytics to guage the neccesity of having extra labor if they kept track of turnaways etc. Not to mention the 3 empty resaurants at the MK. But it would also rely heavily on the manager on duty to make quick decisions regarding staffing and if that person is not on top of it things can spiral out of control quickly. Either with upset employees or or letting in too many walk -ups and hurting everyone's experience. Also from years of experience a crew that is bored will become complacent.

This is just a case of Disney mostly just going after the guaranteed money and hedging against any possible loss, while in turn possibly losing customer satistication and good will.

I completely agree with your observations (I have a restaurant management background as well). All of it rings 100% true.

However, in my observation, Disney has some of the worst FOH management behaviors I've ever seen (mind you, when I say worst, it's really not the WORST I've ever seen, but I'd expect far more from Disney).

In a standard restaurant you have your breakfast rush (maybe). Lunch rush, dinner rush and weekends with their own specific rushes.

You plot your labor and shifts (ideally) not only on the shift sales, but on the trending recent and YoY sales by hour.

Disney...does not have this problem. Pecos Bill's has "slow times" I'd imagine that would make most GMs drool as if they'd turned in a large Saturday. What I mean is that they are at a point where managing the labor cost, while important, is not as important (and should not be as important) as providing quality. What are they fighting for, a 1% labor savings? Because, for them, 1% of cast labor to them is still a rather large number.

And yet, I see them doing that...time and again. And, what is the result? Dirty FOH operations, tables that stay unbussed, long lines, sloppy kitchen areas (if open kitchen, like POFQ, where I can observe...and I grant, I look for things and things irritate me that wouldn't irritate the average person because, well, they aren't from a restaurant management background), dirty beverage bars, sloppy floors, overflowing FOH trash cans...list goes on.

I literally saw tables go unbussed at POFQ on my last trip for a full days. The cream of the crop was one where the syrup from breakfast was still there that evening when I went for a late night just before closing snack, as was the powdered sugar from the beignets and the sticky syrup residue.

Piles of ice in the beverage bar (I made the comment that it's not that hard to combat...just bring out a bucket of hot water every 15 minutes to a half hour depending on volume). Overflowing straw containers...

Not just Quick Service. For example, at Coral Reef last trip I witnessed the FOH manager bussing tables while her staff were hiding off in a corner, out of her view, but not mine from where I was sitting, playing on their cel phones. And, at that restaurant, my wait was long, though I had an ADR and met it, and the restaurant wasn't even half full, my service was slow, and my food was meh (some great things, some really bad things, but it was like their expedite had taken the day off and the kitchen was just doing as it pleased).

My, I could go on a while. And, for many, they may not notice these things. But, after 11 years in restaurants, it's just nothing more than sloppy management.

I get that restaurants get slammed. Trust me. It happens. That's why I have a rather long fuse. And, when I look up and I see the FOH manager (or a team lead) out there working point, checking with their staff regularly and giving direction to keep it all together as best he/she can, I don't mind one bit, and will happily wait and not complain.

But, when it's slow, or there's obvious sloth (another skill a restaurant manager worth half their salt picks up quickly is seeing people efficiencies...or lack thereof)...my blood boils.

 

[hsisthebest]

Booking attractions with FP is a total pain in the butt. Whereas getting an FP ticket was a breeze. I'm surprised anyone is defending an expensive fail that cost way more than predicted and is causing more hassle for a lot of people. But to each his own...

Are you serious or just trolling? FP+ is the best for families especially with small children. With old fastpass we just couldn't get to the parks in times and all the way to the major rides to get a pass before all were taken (early days of soarin and TSMM). Now I booked all my fastpasses and ADR while my children were asleep and got to do everything we wanted. And yes disney should cater to me and my 4 little kids because I spend a bottom-load of money on my trips.

 

[Nick Wilde]

This is incorrect. So far I have done a handful of trips since FP+ went gold. I was not able to do advance FP reservations on any of them and I have had zero issue getting fast passes for all of the headliner attractions.

Sure, my time choices were limited, but the only attraction property wide that was unavailable the morning of was the Frozen Meet n Greet.

I haven't actually used the system before. So considering what I heard here, you can't get FP the day before, and that they were always booked, like the sit-down restaurants.

 

[Master Yoda]

I haven't actually used the system before. So considering what I heard here, you can't get FP the day before, and that they were always booked, like the sit-down restaurants.

What you have heard is incorrect.

 

[R W B]

Everyone has their own opinion on the parks and that's indisputable (see these forums). There are people who complain so much it wants to make me vomit but it's theri choice to be miserable. There are people who complain about the complainers (yet the original complainers never see the point). However, here is mine.

I'm getting tired of hearing the lamest of all complaints and this is the people who are whining about how you can't book last minute trips because of FP+. For those reactionary typers and responders.....read the whole post before spewing off.

This is simply not true. This is more of someone seemingly wanting to complain about FP+ and trying to use an argument that really doesn't support their feelings on the topic. FP+ does not in any way stop people from waiting in line. Period.

What did people do before the legacy FP existed? Booked a last minute trip and waited in line right? What about after legacy FP was released? Booked a last minute trip, got what FP you could get and....wait for it.....waited in line right? Either way, FP+ did not block anyone from booking a last minute trip.

My biggest issue with this argument is.....no one is forcing you to use FP+. No one forced you to use legacy FP. WDW does not force (nor has not forced) anyone to use fastpass. It's a choice for each guest to make whether it's their first trip or 30th trip. They still aren't forcing you to use it, it's an option for all guests. Period.

Before FP+, were you able to book a last minute trip? Yes. After FP+, are you able to book a last minute trip? Yes. Indisputable. Fastpass plus has zero impact on if you want to book a last minute trip. The same rides and attraction were there before and after FP+ yes? The same restaurants? Same WDW? The stand-by lines were also there before and after yes? So why exactly can't you go last minute? Zero reasons.

Now, does FP+ affect the wait times? Yes but so does weather, time of year, tour groups, cheer competitions, mardi gras, etc... Irregardless....it doesn't stop anyone from booking a last minute trip. If you call Kingdom Konsultants and tell Marie (@wannabeBelle) you want to book a last minute trip, she's not going to tell you no if you haven't made your FP+ selection yet. Sorry Marie for using you.....lol She may tell you no because there are no rooms available but not because you didn't make your FP+ selections.

FP+ is offered by Disney as another planning tool for those who choose to plan their trip ahead of time just like MDE. It's not someone with a gun to your head forcing you to do it. Because of how the system is, dining reservations are impacted by over planners more than anything and that's simply because Disney has that offering. This doesn't mean you can't eat. It just means you have to adjust your plans. The large majority of travelers, whether it's to WDW or elsewhere, are more planners than ever. That's society and the advent of the internet and smartphones has increased this. One of the biggest things that veteran WDW guests tell people is what???? To plan and do research right? So this is what so many are doing and technology is allowing the planning to be easier.

In my opinion, FP+ helps veteran guests more than the newbies. We know about what times we'll be where so it allows us to use our knowledge of the parks to plan FP+ ahead of time. Saves time in my opinion than having to pink pong around the parks to get the paper fastpasses. I for one really liked it this September and it was my first time using it. I like not having to "run with the herd" for TSMM or walking to the other side of the earth in Epcot to get one for Soarin'. I choose to use it because I'm an unapologetic line snob. My family set a threshold for wait times and if we don't have a FP for it, we will move on and go back. We never miss an attraction that we want...ever. That's my choice! See what I'm getting at.........

Just an observation.

I have to absolutely disagree with you. FP+ definitely effects last minute trips more then legacy fast pass/pre FP.

I've been to WDW 8 times total, my first trip was planned about 3 months out and my last trip was planned about a year out (went with other family on both). The 6 between those were all planned within a month of arriving. With legacy FP it was a level playing field no matter when you booked, just mattered what time you got to the park that day. Idk how you can say it doesn't change anything when in fact it changes a lot. It was bad enough having to book what type of food I want to eat 180 days before I get there but now having to book which ride I want 60 days out, kind of ridiculous IMO.

At first I didn't like the wrist band/MM but after using it in March, it wasn't bad other then the new FP+. Just don't like booking things that far in advance except for a hotel/resort/flight. That's why I've only booked 4 ADRs total in those 8 trips.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Wasn't one of the other complaints the cost of FP+? Reportedly $2 billion was spent on it. While, I don't know how accurate that number is, even if it was half that amount, a billion bucks (or even half of that) wouldn't that buy at least one new major attraction or show, and/or updates to existing attractions/shows?

I guess my point is, even if the system works, is it worth the time and money Disney spent on it? Not a complaint, or rant, nor an effort to derail this thread, just thought it might help shed some light on where a lot of the complaints about FP+ come from.

I believe it was 2 billion spent on the entire MDE system, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Actually, I could have sworn that it went over budget.

No you are correct, it was the entire system. The only visible thing for the guests that has changed is the FP+ system. With alarming regularity everyone says "I don't know why they spend 2B on FP+ when that could have added quite a few attractions. I finally go so tired of it that I just skip over it and go on to other things were intelligent conversation is happening. You are correct the price tag on MM+ is high (no one really knows how much it costs. Many numbers have been tossed out there from people that had no access to the books and are just tossing out high numbers because it sounds good), but, it is for a complete overhaul of the old IT system. FP+ is one tiny part of that program and, as I said, one of the only things that is obvious. The other fact that everyone seems to sweep under the rug is that this expenditure is provided by TWDC, not WDW*. The funds used for this were never going to be earmarked for attractions. At best it would just have been used to inflate the executive bonus's.

Also it seems that most of the negative opinions about FP+ are from those that had perfected FP (old style) and change comes hard to those used to doing things one way. It was a necessity though, I feel, the entire FP system had gotten out of hand and wasn't doing what they wanted FP to do. The major attractions were being mobbed causing Standby lines to be almost at a stand still. At least now everyone has a better chance to see the main attractions. I showed up at MK one morning at 10:30 and without previous reservations was able to get a Fastpass for the Jungle Cruise, Haunted Mansion and Peter Pan. The later being one that I hadn't ridden for a number of years because the line was too long and I was unable to get a FP. I was able to get all three in one stop and could then easily plan my day around them and never had to cross the park a couple of times to get any of them.

Personally, I don't care if people complain about things, but, after a while when you have seen posts complaining about nothing happening, nothing being upgraded or maintained, then when they do build, it's to slow and it isn't what they wanted to see done and man the construction all over the place is killing the magic. It starts to become just words with no impact or credibility and does seem like complaining for the sake of complaining. But, if that's what makes people happy far be it for me to attempt to stop it. I do stop thinking it has any relevance though.

* Yes, eventually all those expenses will be charged off to the parks company wide, but WDW is not going to foot the entire bill.

 

[Dads 2 Boys]

I have to absolutely disagree with you. FP+ definitely effects last minute trips more then legacy fast pass/pre FP.

I've been to WDW 8 times total, my first trip was planned about 3 months out and my last trip was planned about a year out (went with other family on both). The 6 between those were all planned within a month of arriving. With legacy FP it was a level playing field no matter when you booked, just mattered what time you got to the park that day. Idk how you can say it doesn't change anything when in fact it changes a lot. It was bad enough having to book what type of food I want to eat 180 days before I get there but now having to book which ride I want 60 days out, kind of ridiculous IMO.

At first I didn't like the wrist band/MM but after using it in March, it wasn't bad other then the new FP+. Just don't like booking things that far in advance except for a hotel/resort/flight. That's why I've only booked 4 ADRs total in those 8 trips.

Booking ADR's last minute has been an issue for many years though correct? Those don't have anything to do with FP+ IMO.

According to a bunch of people I know, they don't seem to have issues getting FP for headliners and they book a month out. I'm sure getting FP+ day of is not the same but......

 

[Dads 2 Boys]

Dads 2 Boys, why do you hate FP+ so much?

Just kidding. Good points, all. I do, however, sympathize that FP+ seems to make it slightly harder for Disney newbies or light planners to have a good time. Even minor attractions like the teacups now have both FP and standby lines. There was a time that a newbie could just walk in, ride a whole bunch of lesser attractions with few lines, and grab a kiosk FP for one or two big attractions. Now, you better have a fully charged cellphone to do much of anything.

It all just became a bit more confusing with FP+, and it seems that the standby lines overall might be a bit longer than they used to be, especially for these minor attractions.

Face it, it didn't take much for most of us to master the old FP kiosk system. Just walk up to the kiosk and give it a go, and a CM was often right there to help. Now, it's an iPhone thing that my wife handles, probably requiring registration, a password, mother's maiden name, astrological sign, blood sample, and cholesterol test to get a good time for Test Track. Okay, maybe not that bad, but can you picture your favorite 65+ year old relative mastering it? I can't. Yet a few years back I was able to teach my 70 year old mother about the FP kiosks in about 3 minutes. She got them for Haunted Mansion, and then rode Small World 5 times with my son until her window opened. Easy Peasy. Now, I assume she'd be staring at a cellphone screen trying to make it work--unsuccessfully.

Thanks that u knew I liked it.....lol

I think newbies are overwhelmed by the whole FP+ thing because they've never used it and it can appear daunting. I'm helping my stylist plan her trip next month and she said it seems so crazy. She was able to get her fastpasses last week and got everything she wanted including two for SDMT on two different days. She's asked for help and has taken all the advice she can get.

 

[Chef Mickey]

I WAS forced to use fastpass+ actually, because otherwise I would have been required to wait about 4-5 times longer to ride Pirates of the Caribbean than the normal standby wait time prior to FP+ being implemented. I take issue with waiting in a now consistently 40-60 minute line for an attraction that almost never commanded more than 5-15 minutes in the first place (excepting the busiest times of the year or when it was brand new) and was more often than not practically a walk-on. POTC is one of a number of rides (Haunted Mansion was another from my experience) that never needed fastpass in the first place and did not command anywhere remotely close to these absurdly long lines before the system was implemented.

From personal experience using Fastpass+ for Pirates, the system accomplished nothing more than making the standby line 4-5 times as long as it normally would have been (without the system), the Fastpass+ line now simply has the same or longer wait time than what the ORIGINAL standby line normally had prior to FP. This system sucks, even moreso than regular Fastpass. And I have plenty of experience visiting WDW well before FP was invented at all, you don't need such a system provided you have the proper amount of quality, efficient and high capacity rides to evenly disperse the crowds throughout the park. That was how the parks were run prior to the mid-late 90's, and it was a very sound system.

While I agree with your premise, it's hard to compare eras since Disney has become ridiculously crowded a lot more of the time compared to the pre Fast Pass era and even since FP+ was indroduced.

The real failure here is the failure to meaningfully control crowds and/or expand the parks to match increasing attendance.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

I don't even care enough to complain anymore.

See ya' in the Keys.

 

[BrianV]

FP+ is good for some and in some situations and bad for some and in some situations.

On net, it is good for me. We live 1500 miles away so a spur of the moment trip is unlikely. As such, we can plan and book our fast passes. Under the old system, we would race in with one person taking the tickets to get headliner fast passes. Now, with those booked in advance, we can stroll in leisurely in the morning. Also, we are not particularly early risers. We are never rope-drop people. For us, this eliminates some of the need to to be there early.

On the downside, I think we got more total fast passes in the old system. And maybe we even went on more total rides. And you are locked in to a given park on a given day much more now. Although ADRS effectively do that as well.

 

[epcot2004]

All I know is that we were literally never able to obtain FP for Soarin or Toy Story prior to FP+. We were able to get for both with no issues. I am usually on here giving Disney a hard time and I did on this issue prior to our recent trip. We were reshuffeling FP even the same day so I do not see how that affects last minute trips. I do reserve the right to complain about this topic at a later date if/when we experiance any issues

 

[Magenta Panther]

Are you serious or just trolling? FP+ is the best for families especially with small children. With old fastpass we just couldn't get to the parks in times and all the way to the major rides to get a pass before all were taken (early days of soarin and TSMM). Now I booked all my fastpasses and ADR while my children were asleep and got to do everything we wanted. And yes disney should cater to me and my 4 little kids because I spend a bottom-load of money on my trips.

Are you serious, or are you a plant?

Last time I went to WDW, people were standing around kiosks harassing CMs about Fastpass and how it was supposed to work and how come it DIDN'T work and boy did I feel sorry for those CMs. I've never seen WDW park employees look so put-upon and exhausted. The guests didn't look so happy either. The Magic Band I wore was a female dog to put on every darn day, and it worked only twice to open my room door. Worked okay for the Meal Plan, but you know, the old Keys to the World cards worked just as well. Those were NICE. Slip them in a pocket and you're on your way. No stupid band to take on and off every day. I looked into booking rides with FP but decided it wasn't worth the hassle. If TSMM was over 30 minutes I just went somewhere else. I've ridden it once and that was enough; it's just a high-tech shooting gallery, so yawn., who cares? If FP works for you, goody. But it cost too much to implement, and the dollars spent on it could have gone to building new attractions. So I still say the heck with it.

 

[draybook]

While I agree with your premise, it's hard to compare eras since Disney has become ridiculously crowded a lot more of the time compared to the pre Fast Pass era and even since FP+ was indroduced.

The real failure here is the failure to meaningfully control crowds and/or expand the parks to match increasing attendance.

I would disagree with that. We've only been going since 2008 but since the implementation of FP- the wait times for Pirates went from 5-10 minutes up to a normal wait time of 30+, and that's during September.

 

[Master Yoda]

I would disagree with that. We've only been going since 2008 but since the implementation of FP- the wait times for Pirates went from 5-10 minutes up to a normal wait time of 30+, and that's during September.

and in the same time period the waits for the headliner attractions (eg the mountains) have gone down. This is part of spreading the crowds around.

 

[NearTheEars]

Booking attractions with FP is a total pain in the butt. Whereas getting an FP ticket was a breeze. I'm surprised anyone is defending an expensive fail that cost way more than predicted and is causing more hassle for a lot of people. But to each his own...

It indeed was a breeze from all the running to get one before they ran out. (I'm looking at you DHS). At the other parks, not so much, but if you got to them later in the day you were often out of luck.

I prefer picking mine a few days ahead, often a day ahead.

What I didn't like about the old system was the waiting and lingering around during the period between grabbing the ticket and getting in line when the time came.

Obviously that shows I'm not real spontaneous. I like having a game plan.

Now when I book, and am able to choose the times, I pay attention to what attractions are around the area of my next FP and what I can experience in that time frame.

I feel more in control of my day, which in turn relaxes me.

But being local also takes a lot of pressure off us. We know we can always come back next week if we really wanted to. Vacationers ... Not so much.

 

[DisneyRoy]

I WAS forced to use fastpass+ actually, because otherwise I would have been required to wait about 4-5 times longer to ride Pirates of the Caribbean than the normal standby wait time prior to FP+ being implemented. I take issue with waiting in a now consistently 40-60 minute line for an attraction that almost never commanded more than 5-15 minutes in the first place (excepting the busiest times of the year or when it was brand new) and was more often than not practically a walk-on. POTC is one of a number of rides (Haunted Mansion was another from my experience) that never needed fastpass in the first place and did not command anywhere remotely close to these absurdly long lines before the system was implemented.

From personal experience using Fastpass+ for Pirates, the system accomplished nothing more than making the standby line 4-5 times as long as it normally would have been (without the system), the Fastpass+ line now simply has the same or longer wait time than what the ORIGINAL standby line normally had prior to FP. This system sucks, even moreso than regular Fastpass. And I have plenty of experience visiting WDW well before FP was invented at all, you don't need such a system provided you have the proper amount of quality, efficient and high capacity rides to evenly disperse the crowds throughout the park. That was how the parks were run prior to the mid-late 90's, and it was a very sound system.

That was the whole goal of FP+. To more evenly distribute guests throughout each park. And it has succeeded at that wonderfully. The headliners lines are shorter and the Omnimovers lines are longer. There are numerous studies and websites out there that show this has happened. So while you may not like the results, I assure you Disney is enamored with them since what they wanted to happen has happened. And because of this...it is not going away any time soon. So I would encourage you to learn how to use it to the best you can.

 

[NearTheEars]

I didn't read everything in the thread, so sorry if someone already said this, but this is all true. Except for the fact that before FP+, you could plan a last minute trip, and still get FP. You can plan a last minute trip now, of course. The problem is you won't have FP. That's why they're complaining. Would YOU like a trip to the park with no FP? It wouldn't be as near as enjoyable.
As a local, it used to be nice to be able to say, "Let's go to Disney tomorrow, we're not doing anything." But now we have to plan weeks in advance, if not months.

I dunno, we do plenty of "let's go today" trips without much hassle. No, we didn't get a FP for say 7DMT, but typically the other headliners are still available.

But you certainly have a valid point about not really having to worry about it before because they were always available. Assuming you got to the park early, not late afternoon.