Shades of Green renovation

[James Norrie]

So then, no news about tax dollars supporting SoG yet.

Alrighty then.

PS- one more acronym not mentioned above. MWR is Morale, Welfare & Recreation. Or maybe it is Wellbeing. Not sure.

Nope, Just not entertaining your ridiculous demand for proof that the government spends taxpayer dollars...
And you are right, it's welfare

 

[Goofnut1980]

Not really. Exterior paint and roofing plus interior make over fits the $40 million bill.

That's true.. if its roofing involved. Plus I'm sure the way Florida code is for hurricanes, it has to be done better than we would here in Ohio!

 

[James Norrie]

And, Here it is, straight from the AR 215-1 (MWR Administration Regulations)...

3–6. Program Group VI: Special purpose central funds


These funds are sole providers of a consolidated NAF function, such as construction, accounting, procurement,

personnel administration, employee health and life insurance, and risk management. These are HQ-level programs.

Expenses of these funds are generally recovered through premiums or assessments charged or offset against earnings

prior to distribution. These funds are authorized the same APF and NAF support authorized for category C programs.

Centrally administered NAFIs are shown in table 3–1.

Table 3–1

Listing of centrally administered Department of the Army nonappropriated fund instrumentalities

NAFI: Armed Forces Recreation Center–Orlando (Shades of Green), Orlando, Florida


SNN: IDD


Scope: Provides a first-class, full-service hotel and adjunct recreational facilities and programs at affordable prices for eligible patrons.

NOTE That this specifically states they are authorized BOTH NAF's and APF's...

 

[jt04]

And, Here it is, straight from the AR 215-1 (MWR Administration Regulations)...

3–6. Program Group VI: Special purpose central funds


These funds are sole providers of a consolidated NAF function, such as construction, accounting, procurement,

personnel administration, employee health and life insurance, and risk management. These are HQ-level programs.

Expenses of these funds are generally recovered through premiums or assessments charged or offset against earnings

prior to distribution. These funds are authorized the same APF and NAF support authorized for category C programs.

Centrally administered NAFIs are shown in table 3–1.

Table 3–1

Listing of centrally administered Department of the Army nonappropriated fund instrumentalities

NAFI: Armed Forces Recreation Center–Orlando (Shades of Green), Orlando, Florida


SNN: IDD


Scope: Provides a first-class, full-service hotel and adjunct recreational facilities and programs at affordable prices for eligible patrons.

NOTE That this specifically states they are authorized BOTH NAF's and APF's...

Still no numbers? Spreadsheets would better make your case. I won't be holding my breath. Are rates radically different from other hotels on property? Would SoG really need any tax funds to meet costs of doing business?

 

[James Norrie]

Still no numbers? Spreadsheets would better make your case. I won't be holding my breath. Are rates radically different from other hotels on property? Would SoG really need any tax funds to meet costs of doing business?

And once again you've proven to me your complete lack of ability to conduct critical thinking. So, by your logic, where's the proof they aren't using taxpayer funds... Just a hint, spreadsheets would help make your case ;-)

 

[flynnibus]

And, Here it is, straight from the AR 215-1 (MWR Administration Regulations)...

just put jt on ignore like 95% of the people here. There isn't any prize for proving him wrong, contradictory, or just a troll.. he seems to exist only to sucker in the new accounts.

 

[James Norrie]

just put jt on ignore like 95% of the people here. There isn't any prize for proving him wrong, contradictory, or just a troll.. he seems to exist only to sucker in the new accounts.

I'm beginning to sense the Force isn't too strong with this one.

 

[danlb_2000]

Still no numbers? Spreadsheets would better make your case. I won't be holding my breath. Are rates radically different from other hotels on property? Would SoG really need any tax funds to meet costs of doing business?

Standard room is $109 - $149 depending on the category you are in, a suite is $285 to $425.

http://www.shadesofgreen.org/roomrates.htm

 

[Speedy71]

ITS DOD, A BRANCH OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!!! OF COURSE TAX DOLLARS ARE BEING USED! You are being obtuse...

 

[jt04]

Standard room is $109 - $149 depending on the category you are in, a suite is $285 to $425.

http://www.shadesofgreen.org/roomrates.htm

Wow. Yeah doubt they can't meet all expenses for refurbs at those rates. Seems on par with moderate hotels on property. Thanks for clarifying that no tax dollars are being spent on this project. That is obvious now.

 

[flynnibus]

This is what happens when members don't practice safe forum browsing. Use protection and don't get lured by the 'free candy' man in the van

 

[danlb_2000]

Wow. Yeah doubt they can't meet all expenses for refurbs at those rates. Seems on par with moderate hotels on property. Thanks for clarifying that no tax dollars are being spent on this project. That is obvious now.

These prices are much better the moderate pricing, and it's my understanding the Shades of Green has amenities comparable to a deluxe resort (although someone can correct me if this is not accurate). I only posted prices, I did not make any statement either way on the tax argument.

 

[SorcererMC]

Would SoG really need any tax funds to meet costs of doing business?

Wow. Yeah doubt they can't meet all expenses for refurbs at those rates. Seems on par with moderate hotels on property. Thanks for clarifying that no tax dollars are being spent on this project. That is obvious now.

The Shades of Green 'self-sustaining' statement is technically accurate - they are authorized to generate revenue as a Category C, but most likely they are breaking-even, per 10 USC 2491c (federal law):

Amounts may not be retained in a nonappropriated morale, welfare, and recreation account of a military installation of an armed force in excess of the amount necessary to meet cash requirements of that installation. Amounts in excess of that amount shall be transferred to a single nonappropriated morale, welfare, and recreation account for that armed force.
​

Any 'excess' would be transferred to the central fund referenced in the AR 215-1. This type of maintenance/ restoration would most likely be paid for using NAFs, since 1. the Army has the lowest rate of APF support for MWR at around 20%....and 2. Construction costs are not APF-authorized for Cat C.

BUT it is still APF-eligible (and also the UMF mechanism can convert NAF to APF so long as funds are coded properly) ...so, I wouldn't declare it 'case closed', but I also wouldn't be concerned about the amount of tax dollars that would support this.

 

[jt04]

The Shades of Green 'self-sustaining' statement is technically accurate - they are authorized to generate revenue as a Category C, but most likely they are breaking-even, per 10 USC 2491c (federal law):

Amounts may not be retained in a nonappropriated morale, welfare, and recreation account of a military installation of an armed force in excess of the amount necessary to meet cash requirements of that installation. Amounts in excess of that amount shall be transferred to a single nonappropriated morale, welfare, and recreation account for that armed force.
​

Any 'excess' would be transferred to the central fund referenced in the AR 215-1. This type of maintenance/ restoration would most likely be paid for using NAFs, since 1. the Army has the lowest rate of APF support for MWR at around 20%....and 2. Construction costs are not APF-authorized for Cat C.

BUT it is still APF-eligible (and also the UMF mechanism can convert NAF to APF so long as funds are coded properly) ...so, I wouldn't declare it 'case closed', but I also wouldn't be concerned about the amount of tax dollars that would support this.

I am guessing that if Congress was being asked to subsidize such a project that they would first consider selling it off to a contractor or back to Disney.

Congress doesn't even fund the VA properly.

 

[flynnibus]

These prices are much better the moderate pricing, and it's my understanding the Shades of Green has amenities comparable to a deluxe resort (although someone can correct me if this is not accurate). I only posted prices, I did not make any statement either way on the tax argument.

Room sizes are bigger than mods. So it's like a non themed, deluxe room, at a Hilton. you avoid things like massive properties that require internal buses... you have a parking lot near the room (if you get the building connected to the garage)... a simple restaurant on property..

But no over the top theming, no super fancy pool, and different transportation options. I haven't stayed since the mde transition. No longer getting free parking at the parks stinks too.

 

[SorcererMC]

I am guessing that if Congress was being asked to subsidize such a project that they would first consider selling it off to a contractor or back to Disney.

Congress doesn't even fund the VA properly.

I don't think that it would require pre-authorization by Congress - it would be adjudicated by the Office of the Secretary of Defense Undersecretary that handles MWR. Generally, if APF were used it would need to pass the 'public scrutiny' test, as all MWR is reported to Congress annually. (Consider that MWR APF cannot be used for golf courses, for example.)
Also, a 1995 audit found that the Shades of Green rates were not self-sustaining, and the project was considered 'burdensome' for AFRC; nonetheless it was purchased. It's the only AFRC resort in the US, I'd be surprised if they divested themselves of it. ETA Scratch that, there's one in Hawaii.

As of September, Congress was going to cut MWR but the DoD has put it under review.
https://www.stripes.com/news/pentagon-concerns-halt-planned-army-mwr-cuts-1.431573

The defense budget for FY passed in October/November I think but I don't know offhand if cuts to MWR were made or not. It's kind of a big deal because it impacts the schools and child care, too.

 

[Daveeeeed]

I am staying at the Shades of Green until the 8th. Anyone want photos?

 

[jt04]

I don't think that it would require pre-authorization by Congress - it would be adjudicated by the Office of the Secretary of Defense Undersecretary that handles MWR. Generally, if APF were used it would need to pass the 'public scrutiny' test, as all MWR is reported to Congress annually. (Consider that MWR APF cannot be used for golf courses, for example.)
Also, a 1995 audit found that the Shades of Green rates were not self-sustaining, and the project was considered 'burdensome' for AFRC; nonetheless it was purchased. It's the only AFRC resort in the US, I'd be surprised if they divested themselves of it. ETA Scratch that, there's one in Hawaii.

As of September, Congress was going to cut MWR but the DoD has put it under review.
https://www.stripes.com/news/pentagon-concerns-halt-planned-army-mwr-cuts-1.431573

The defense budget for FY passed in October/November I think but I don't know offhand if cuts to MWR were made or not. It's kind of a big deal because it impacts the schools and child care, too.

Thanks for some actual information. Seems to me Disney should foot the bill here for any extra costs that can't be met through fees since they benefit directly. That is if tax dollars are being used, which I obviously doubt. Thanks again.

 

[SorcererMC]

Thanks for some actual information. Seems to me Disney should foot the bill here for any extra costs that can't be met through fees since they benefit directly. That is if tax dollars are being used, which I obviously doubt. Thanks again.

I wondered about Disney making a contribution to it, too....but there are so many rules about it and as far as I can tell it's not a public-private venture (which is governed by separate DoD regulation 1015.13), so I'm not sure how that would be done.

 

[jt04]

I wondered about Disney making a contribution to it, too....but there are so many rules about it and as far as I can tell it's not a public-private venture (which is governed by separate DoD regulation 1015.13), so I'm not sure how that would be done.

The next several years are going to be a great educational experience.