Sea World has posted Reponse to Blackfish

[919Florida]

Mark Simmons is an advocate for an industry. I think that many people within the business have, over time, developed a point of view regarding captive orcas that allows them to exploit them guilt-free.

Does the orca in the picture above look like it has been treated --- “like royalty?”

It’s time to get over this childish fantasy that the whales at SeaWorld live a life of luxury.

That’s thinking at the 5th grade level. (Fine---if you’re in 5th grade.)

Orcas are too large---too intelligent---too powerful---and too social (family-oriented) to be put on display in theme parks.

Even the most staunch supporters of SeaWorld are now wondering if its time to start thinking out of the (concrete) box.

Mark Simmons was fine when he was in "blackfish" though right. But when he spoke out against the film now he becomes an advocate for the industry?

Also the most staunch supporters of SeaWorld are now thinking outside the box? Really? Where do you get the idea from? I don't know of any who are thinking like that. SeaWorld crowds are HUGE right now. In January in off peak season. People are in line just to get in the park over an hour. People are loving SeaWorld and they are out in droves showing their support

 

[lazyboy97o]

So again I ask, if sentiment against SeaWorld truly does shift, who then pays for sea pens and continued care?

 

[MaxsDad]

To us, savannah dwelling apes, that tank may appear to be a large body of water. To an ocean creature designed to swim 100 kilometers a day and who calls its kin with a voice reaching many kilometers that water basin feels more like a straitjacket.

Forty feet deep? For a 14000lb ocean creature twentyfive feet in length? That's me locked for life in a bare steel cage of ten by ten foot. And two feet high - I can never really move in the 3rd dimension.

I do not have a dog in this fight (pardon the pun), but as a nearly upright Ape have found the thread interesting. Tell me, how does one truly know how a whale "feels"? It is one thing to make ethical judgments about the treatment received, it is an entirely different thing to perceive the inward feelings of the recipient. I also wonder how often they swim in the upright position, as the depth of the water is compared to their length?

Personally, my vertical jump is negligible. I never really move in the third dimension myself either. Always wanted to dunk, but could barely touch the rim.

I appreciate your passion for the subject. Not trying to patronize you as I felt this way before today, but I have always valued differing opinions, as they have the value of keeping the world in check and alerting us when we go to far.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

I don't think you'll find many people that support Miami Seaquarium, even among those of us that support SeaWorld

Ah, I was hoping for just this reaction! Whales at SEA are great, whereas Miami is indefensible? That a keast brings us to much common ground then, we all agree that whale captivity in Miami circumstances is indefensible. I go one tiny little step further, and say that SEA's twenty foot larger tank plus a better paid vet does not suddenly turn the indefensible into the defensible.


Miami was also brought up because it shows us two further things:

1) If Miami can continue to operate, then Florida legislation is entirely inadequate to protect both man and animal. (No surprise with Fla politics being in the pocket of theme park lobbyists). So there is improper legal oversight of SEA. Adn that over such a sensitive issue wuith a track record of abuse of man and animal.
2) Secondly, a great many of SEA's excuses can be dismissed as nonsense outright. For if SEA is defensible and Miami not, then that shows the following statements are apparantly insufficient reasons for orca captivity:

- That orcas held for orca shows perform natural behaviour anyway
- That orca shows are fine because they create a love for killer whale conservation
- That opposition to orca captivity is trying to benefit from a SEA serial killer whale
- That oposition to orca captivity is a temporary Blackfish fad
- Or is anti-SEA (zzz...)


Russia is important as a character witness. An orca show is being build in Russia, but not in Germany or Sweden. The civilized world is moving away from this gladiator sport, the autoritarian world is embracing it.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

I would personally love to be an animal at SeaWorld.

Okay.

Me, I am not an animal rights activist. I exploit animals for my food and pleasure. I do not need to reason that away. If I eat a cow that involves an act of killing. To display an undomesticated animal for my viewing pleasure means captivity. I exploit them, and I am fine with that. But I will not add insult to injury by telling these animals that I would love to be in their place. That feels disrespectful to them, and feels like an intellectually dishonest way to evade my personal responsibility for my own actions, by pretending they are not happening.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Tell me, how does one truly know how a whale "feels"? It is one thing to make ethical judgments about the treatment received, it is an entirely different thing to perceive the inward feelings of the recipient.

I think we can go a very long way towards understanding the emotions of mammals. Without antropomorphisizing them.

Is this intelligent mammal happy, sad, or neutral?

And this one?

I also wonder how often they swim in the upright position, as the depth of the water is compared to their length?

Personally, my vertical jump is negligible. I never really move in the third dimension myself either.

Exactly! You and I never really move in the third dimension. We live in a two dimensional world. Even our stair or tree climbing is essentially 2d. Hence the impossibility of displaying large ocean creatures in our 2d world. We can never emulate their essentially 3d world.

Orcas dive regularly to one hundred meters, up to 300. (Well they're not exactly sperm whales!)

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Guess you got your contract renewed, eh?

Why would you say such a thing? Why not take our conversation partners seriously?

Spirit isn't paid by UNI, Jimmy Thick isn't paid by Disney, you are not paid by SEA, and Patton isn't paid by the global anti-Sea World Cabal. They are simply people with individual opinions, sometimes differing from their fellow conversation partners.

 

[wm49rs]

Why would you say such a thing? Why not take our conversation partners seriously?

Spirit isn't paid by UNI, Jimmy Thick isn't paid by Disney, you are not paid by SEA, and Patton isn't paid by the global anti-Sea World Cabal. They are simply people with individual opinions, sometimes differing from their fellow conversation partners.

Sorry, I'll have to disagree. I've seen his Twitter feed, and his unwillingness to counter any argument to here with nothing more than hyperbole, emotion and further promotion of the film. He has 1400 followers on Twitter, but he can reach nearly 77,000 here.

 

[RandomPrincess]

Why would you say such a thing? Why not take our conversation partners seriously?

Spirit isn't paid by UNI, Jimmy Thick isn't paid by Disney, you are not paid by SEA, and Patton isn't paid by the global anti-Sea World Cabal. They are simply people with individual opinions, sometimes differing from their fellow conversation partners.

I think the difference here is Jimmy and Spirit engage in conversation not just come post what they have to say ignoring all the other posters.

 

[919Florida]

i think the difference here is Jimmy and Spirit engage in conversation not just come post what they have to say ignoring all the other posters.

You are so right. When you come on and ignore all the responses and just post a picture and copy and paste a few articles.It gets old. When I reply its in my own words and not stole from other places.

 

[OFTeric]

How is this acceptable in 2014 Florida? If I permanently lock my dog up in a cage triple his lenght cops come over to my house to arrest me.

​

A note on the Miami Seaquarium.

The Miami Seaquarium is on leased public land. For the past 20 years they have been trying to drastically expand and improve Lolita's habitat.

Why has this not happened? If they change the infrastructure of any of the facilities at the Miami Seaquarium it opens their lease up to renegotiation, which Animal Rights groups have said they will use to shut the facility down.

So the Miami Seaquarium has been put in a position of leave Lolita as is, or run the risk of loosing their entire business.

EVERYONE wants her habitat improved and enlarged... even the owners of the Miami Seaquarium.

But thank Peta, and other radical animal rights groups for her continued confined space.

 

[919Florida]

A note on the Miami Seaquarium.

The Miami Seaquarium is on leased public land. For the past 20 years they have been trying to drastically expand and improve Lolita's habitat.

Why has this not happened? If they change the infrastructure of any of the facilities at the Miami Seaquarium it opens their lease up to renegotiation, which Animal Rights groups have said they will use to shut the facility down.

So the Miami Seaquarium has been put in a position of leave Lolita as is, or run the risk of loosing their entire business.

EVERYONE wants her habitat improved and enlarged... even the owners of the Miami Seaquarium.

But thank Peta, and other radical animal rights groups for her continued confined space.

Very interesting. I had not know all that. Thanks for the information. Makes sense. Sad that peta and radical animal rights groups has this much control. Lolita could have so much more if it wasnt for them

 

[maxairmike]

Ah, I was hoping for just this reaction! Whales at SEA are great, whereas Miami is indefensible? That a keast brings us to much common ground then, we all agree that whale captivity in Miami circumstances is indefensible. I go one tiny little step further, and say that SEA's twenty foot larger tank plus a better paid vet does not suddenly turn the indefensible into the defensible.

Meh, I only know that I generally don't hear much good about Miami, about their care or their enclosures, and have never gotten a good vibe from what I've seen and heard. Though, OFTerific's post sheds a bit of light on the situation that I didn't realize before. Maybe you'd like to address that little twist?

That's part of the problem; the activists want some kind of immediate action and refuse to fully think beyond the immediate reaction they think that they want, regardless of any consequences it may have. I personally don't consider myself "pro-SeaWorld," as I do think they could enlarge the enclosures (assuming the current enclosure isn't the largest economically viable size, and if it is, then I am fine with that, because of the next point), but I think they have some of the best care in general of any AZA member, and I would certainly not support the capture of any wild animal with the exception of brink of extinction species. I consider myself a realist because, what are you going to do with the whales even if the breeding program and shows are stopped today (and I have no problem with that, as I think they can still provide an effective connection and level of inspiration through other encounter setups)? I'll give you a hint, the answer is not a sea pen. The answer is actually that we continue giving them the best possible care we can (which they already receive) while continuing to serve as ambassadors for the rest of their species and the natural world in general for the remainder of their lives, which could well be another 30-40 or more years. However, keep in mind that the shows also serve as a great way for them to receive the physical and mental stimulation they need, and they are not forced to "perform" at all (I've been in the audience many times when a whale decided it would rather splash a bit instead of doing another behavior, and the result was the same as if they had done the requested behavior, positive reinforcement).

 

[ScoutN]

A note on the Miami Seaquarium.

The Miami Seaquarium is on leased public land. For the past 20 years they have been trying to drastically expand and improve Lolita's habitat.

Why has this not happened? If they change the infrastructure of any of the facilities at the Miami Seaquarium it opens their lease up to renegotiation, which Animal Rights groups have said they will use to shut the facility down.

So the Miami Seaquarium has been put in a position of leave Lolita as is, or run the risk of loosing their entire business.

EVERYONE wants her habitat improved and enlarged... even the owners of the Miami Seaquarium.

But thank Peta, and other radical animal rights groups for her continued confined space.

Lolita is an entirely different discussion. To comprehend her and what the larger issue is there requires looking at the type of orca she is and how she differs from those at SEAS parks. Federal legislation could be naming the type of orca she is as endangered.

Once again, entirely different scenario that would derail the topic here even farther by getting into it.

 

[maxairmike]

A very balanced and needed article that sheds some light on a major inconsistency in "facts" that both the anti-caps and SeaWorld like to use. Well worth the read.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...40125_1_killer-whales-individual-whales-orcas

 

[RandomPrincess]

A very balanced and needed article that sheds some light on a major inconsistency in "facts" that both the anti-caps and SeaWorld like to use. Well worth the read.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...40125_1_killer-whales-individual-whales-orcas

Thanks for sharing!

 

[xdan0920]

Seems like this is two separate debates that are being mushed into one untenable debate.

The larger point is how does one feel about Orcas in captivity. I personally don't know how I feel about it. On the one hand it feels wrong. On the other hand, I have always had dogs. I assume, if my dogs weren't in captivity they would do A LOT of running around, way more then what I can offer them. But generally they seem pretty pleased to be holed up with me. So maybe it's the same for the Orcas? I dunno. Like George Costanza, I am not a real marine biologist.

The secondary point deals with the movie "Blackfish". And wether you think it was full of crap and just out for a money grab. Which it seems to me, it was. I am beginning to think that the film probably will wind up doing more to hurt the push for Orcas to be freed, then it will do to help.

As to the guy who worked on the film and has been beating us over the head with it's merits, take it somewhere else.

 

[OFTeric]

A very balanced and needed article that sheds some light on a major inconsistency in "facts" that both the anti-caps and SeaWorld like to use. Well worth the read.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...40125_1_killer-whales-individual-whales-orcas

I applaud Jason Garcia for writing an AMAZING non-biased and very balanced article. I read it and almost shouted "finally."

 

[JPatton]

Holly Byrd, standing on the back of a killer whale like it’s a surfboard and teaching kids at a theme park that it’s okay to control and dominate animals for your own amusement really isn’t a “career” to be proud of.

At least Ms. Berg had the good sense to get out, change course, and create a professional life for herself.

My wish for Holly is that she would travel to the Pacific Northwest--stand on a boat or on the shore--and watch a pod of wild orcas swim together in a body of water that extends to the horizon. Fresh air. New perspectives.

In 2014, it’s about respect. Not exploitation.

 

[wm49rs]

Holly Byrd, standing on the back of a killer whale like it’s a surfboard and teaching kids at a theme park that it’s okay to control and dominate animals for your own amusement really isn’t a “career” to be proud of.

At least Ms. Berg had the good sense to get out, change course, and create a professional life for herself.

My wish for Holly is that she would travel to the Pacific Northwest--stand on a boat or on the shore--and watch a pod of wild orcas swim together in a body of water that extends to the horizon. Fresh air. New perspectives.

In 2014, it’s about respect. Not exploitation.

Like your incessantly exploiting a film for your (and its) further gain?