Rapid Fill Mug Program Fails (at more ways than you might think)

[ford91exploder]

I'll say first, as disclosure, that we only bring old mugs if we intend to use them with our own supplies, which was rare. Never tried to scam the system as it isn't right and Disney certainly doesn't owe us jack (as they've made more than obvious). However, as we are not free dining plan folks (we're DVC), we have to gauge the convenience of the mug based on our plans and may pick up 1 or 2 on a trip. Now however, that has gotten way to pricey. We were stopping out of convenience as we had mugs; we weren't getting a mug as we had to get a drink all the time. The frustrating part being the increased price and they don't work in the parks! This coming trip, back to our existing mugs with supplies in the room.

When the system is activated by a valid RFID, does it auto-stop at a "mug volume"? Since you can top off your drink with minor pauses to allow de-foaming, that tells me it's not like the McD's dispensers at the drive thru. Those have a button for the cup size to auto fill while the staffer is doing another task. That said, I have a curiosity for the serious scammers/hackers, though I figured folks in-the-know would have heard stories of guests being busted using these. Assuming the Disney dispenser reads a valid RFID and does not auto-stop at volume, has anyone high jacked their paid RFID chip and attached it to a larger mug to save time (reducing frequency of refills), or simply put a hole in the mug with a tube to fill other mugs? On the more technical and less comical note, has anyone used an RFID reader on a pocket sized RaspberryPi or smart phone to scan codes as they walk around, then emulate it through an altered mug?

I've seen guest that I know would pay a premium for such stupid devices only to "stick it to the man".

I believe (and the RapidFill vendor states it can) is the dispenser is only allowed to flow for enough time to dispense 12 oz of liquid. It's easy enough to calculate a time value as the dispenser tube size and liquid pressure are both known so calculating the volumetric flow rate is trivial. I'd post it here but I can't add the integration symbols needed for the equation

 

[ford91exploder]

It's a basic passive RFID tag and it's not guarded by anything. Disney has them set up to be very short ranged, you can't have 50-100 people near a drink dispenser with the machine reading all those tags. It could be done but that's not how Disney's work.

Your problems are this.

Very short range, you pretty much need to have the cup in your hand.

Cloning one cup wouldn't work for say a family of four. Before each fill up you have to wait for 7 minutes or whatever the time limit is. In that case 28 minutes for a family of four to fill their cups.

If you could read the cups from a safe distance say 4 feet-6 feet you could very well clone the numbers if you have the right reader and ability to make the tags. Lot of work for free drinks. I don't think you could get a signal without it being very close range. Disney is buying the cheapest RFID tags out there.

Making up numbers won't work either. Your only chance there is to buy a cup and assume the numbers are in order. Just make tags with the next numbers (how many you want). But you would need a Disney cup to pull it off. I don't think they guard the cups that well but I've never thought about grabbing a few.

A more fun idea would be to bring a strong transmitter to a Disney restaurant that sends out signals in the 902-928 MHz range. For the hacker inclined that would be a better goal. I would imagine you could jam the magic bands as well if you found the right frequency(s). I would bet the magic bands have some sort of security on them but you could still screw up their signal. I could see someone shutting down the drinks just for the fun of it. Angry people banging the machines, looking for CM's to go off on etc. etc.

Passive RFID tags read distance is determined by the power of the transmitter. So with a few watts of RF and a directional antenna you could easily read the RFID tags as was done at Black Hat

https://blog.getkisi.com/copy-clone-prox-hid-id-card/

Note this was 2013 the stuff done in 2016 was far more sophisticated

The sad reality is managers think RFID is secure...

 

[dmatt87]

It would a logical move to be able to use the mugs in the parks as well - maybe with a premium but it would be useful!

 

[larryz]

I believe (and the RapidFill vendor states it can) is the dispenser is only allowed to flow for enough time to dispense 12 oz of liquid. It's easy enough to calculate a time value as the dispenser tube size and liquid pressure are both known so calculating the volumetric flow rate is trivial. I'd post it here but I can't add the integration symbols needed for the equation

Use character map.

 

[larryz]

It's a basic passive RFID tag and it's not guarded by anything. Disney has them set up to be very short ranged, you can't have 50-100 people near a drink dispenser with the machine reading all those tags. It could be done but that's not how Disney's work.

Your problems are this.

Very short range, you pretty much need to have the cup in your hand.

Cloning one cup wouldn't work for say a family of four. Before each fill up you have to wait for 7 minutes or whatever the time limit is. In that case 28 minutes for a family of four to fill their cups.

If you could read the cups from a safe distance say 4 feet-6 feet you could very well clone the numbers if you have the right reader and ability to make the tags. Lot of work for free drinks. I don't think you could get a signal without it being very close range. Disney is buying the cheapest RFID tags out there.

Making up numbers won't work either. Your only chance there is to buy a cup and assume the numbers are in order. Just make tags with the next numbers (how many you want). But you would need a Disney cup to pull it off. I don't think they guard the cups that well but I've never thought about grabbing a few.

A more fun idea would be to bring a strong transmitter to a Disney restaurant that sends out signals in the 902-928 MHz range. For the hacker inclined that would be a better goal. I would imagine you could jam the magic bands as well if you found the right frequency(s). I would bet the magic bands have some sort of security on them but you could still screw up their signal. I could see someone shutting down the drinks just for the fun of it. Angry people banging the machines, looking for CM's to go off on etc. etc.

Sounds like an expensive way to get a lifetime ban from Disney properties... it'd be a lot cheaper just to punch a manager.

 

[Angel Ariel]

It would a logical move to be able to use the mugs in the parks as well - maybe with a premium but it would be useful!

There are a few places near us where, if you buy the souvenir cup, refills are $1.00. And that goes for future visits too. It would be nice if Disney did something similar with the refillable mugs in the parks.

 

[GoofGoof]

There are a few places near us where, if you buy the souvenir cup, refills are $1.00. And that goes for future visits too. It would be nice if Disney did something similar with the refillable mugs in the parks.

That I could see happening. Not the future visits part but the buy a souvenir mug and get refills for $1 for that day part. That gives guests who want to drink a lot of soda an opportunity for a better deal without making it a complete free for all mess. They would probably also keep the soda fountains behind the counters in most QS locations to save on cost of renovations. The only rub is I can't see the souvenir mugs costing less than $10. You would need to want to drink a lot of soda to make it a really good deal.

 

[ford91exploder]

There are a few places near us where, if you buy the souvenir cup, refills are $1.00. And that goes for future visits too. It would be nice if Disney did something similar with the refillable mugs in the parks.

Like 'Bayou Billy's' on the fair circuit for example

 

[GoofGoof]

Like 'Bayou Billy's' on the fair circuit for example

Local parks tend to offer things like refillable mugs good on future visits to try to encourage people to return another day. If you come back for your free drinks you might buy food or merchandise and you pay for an admission ticket too. With Disney they don't seem too concerned with getting people (especially locals) to show up based on the crowds they seem to have year round now.

 

[ford91exploder]

Local parks tend to offer things like refillable mugs good on future visits to try to encourage people to return another day. If you come back for your free drinks you might buy food or merchandise and you pay for an admission ticket too. With Disney they don't seem too concerned with getting people (especially locals) to show up based on the crowds they seem to have year round now.

Yup it's true but last year the gate dropped for the first time there will be an inflection point with price increases and quality cuts and it will seem to the casual observer that it happened overnight.

And now with the TSA announcing an enhanced feel up your junk policy many more people might just decide to skip flying in the US entirely and that will not be good for WDW

 

[ford91exploder]

Use character map.

XenForo supports Character mapping ?

 

[GoofGoof]

Yup it's true but last year the gate dropped for the first time there will be an inflection point with price increases and quality cuts and it will seem to the casual observer that it happened overnight.

And now with the TSA announcing an enhanced feel up your junk policy many more people might just decide to skip flying in the US entirely and that will not be good for WDW

The attendance drop is hugely overhyped by the doom and gloom crowd. Domestic attendance dropped 1% year over year comparing 2016 to 2015. This is mostly explained by 2015 having 53 weeks instead of the standard 52 weeks. 2015 attendance was also up 7% over 2014 (partially due to the extra week) so if you compare 2016 to 2014 attendance is actually up 6% in that 2 year period. Hardly an indication that the sky is falling. I would also state that the parks feel just as crowded to me, but I don't want several pages of off topic tangent.

Travel and tourism decreases can and will impact WDW but the flip side could also be true. Americans will be less likely to fly overseas so maybe more domestic vacations.

 

[RustySpork]

The attendance drop is hugely overhyped by the doom and gloom crowd. Domestic attendance dropped 1% year over year comparing 2016 to 2015. This is mostly explained by 2015 having 53 weeks instead of the standard 52 weeks. 2015 attendance was also up 7% over 2014 (partially due to the extra week) so if you compare 2016 to 2014 attendance is actually up 6% in that 2 year period. Hardly an indication that the sky is falling. I would also state that the parks feel just as crowded to me, but I don't want several pages of off topic tangent.

Travel and tourism decreases can and will impact WDW but the flip side could also be true. Americans will be less likely to fly overseas so maybe more domestic vacations.

5% drop year-over-year..https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/02/08/disney-world-has-an-attendance-problem-but-it-wont.aspx

 

[GoofGoof]

5% drop year-over-year..https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/02/08/disney-world-has-an-attendance-problem-but-it-wont.aspx

That's Q1 2017 vs Q1 2016. I was talking about full year 2016 vs 2015. The numbers I quoted are directly from the 10K.

For Q1 there was a drop off but there were some explanations given in the earnings call. WDW parks were closed for 2 days due to a hurricane in Q1 2017. There was also a shift in the calendar where 2016 had both weeks of the Christmas holiday in Q1 while 2017 had one week in Q1 and one week in Q2. The third item was a decrease in attendance at DLR due to the 60th anniversary events in 2016. On the earnings call they said those 3 factors accounted for 4% of the 5% decline in attendance. If we get to year end and the full year attendance is down 5% or more then there may be some cause for concern.

 

[RustySpork]

Disney said they were raising prices to get rid of people. If you charge 10% more and lose 5% of the crowd it's a win for Disney.

Not people, mostly Annual Passholders. We really suck for giving them money and then having the audacity of expecting something in return.

 

[RustySpork]

That's Q1 2017 vs Q1 2016. I was talking about full year 2016 vs 2015. The numbers I quoted are directly from the 10K.

For Q1 there was a drop off but there were some explanations given in the earnings call. WDW parks were closed for 2 days due to a hurricane in Q1 2017. There was also a shift in the calendar where 2016 had both weeks of the Christmas holiday in Q1 while 2017 had one week in Q1 and one week in Q2. The third item was a decrease in attendance at DLR due to the 60th anniversary events in 2016. On the earnings call they said those 3 factors accounted for 4% of the 5% decline in attendance. If we get to year end and the full year attendance is down 5% or more then there may be some cause for concern.

Just showing the trending decline. I don't think the loss of two days accounts for 4%, I'm sure it contributed some but I'd like to know what they haven't told us. They sure are trying to sell pass holders that they want our business, every time they call I hear a canned speech about how much they value us. I think they may have gone too far last year, and are trying to quietly about face a bit.

 

[RustySpork]

Exactly, pay up you bums or don't buy AP's. Don't need poor people either taking up space not buying food, beverages and souvenirs.

My bank account thanks Mr. Iger for the way he treated us last year. I kept my APs but I don't spend a whole lot in park anymore.

 

[Laketravis]

I think it's worth noting how taking what most people consider to be cheap high-margin items and increasing the price to insane levels can introduce and encourage thoughts of circumventing the system.

Fraud may have been an issue when a refillable mug was $12. Implement advanced theft deterrent and revenue enhancement techniques, increase the price of the item by 50% or more, and people are suddenly talking about RFID scanners and skimmers and cloned cups and other "advanced" means of circumvention that are now financially plausible. Because the prize is now worth much more.

For friggin' soda.

 

[GoofGoof]

Just showing the trending decline. I don't think the loss of two days accounts for 4%, I'm sure it contributed some but I'd like to know what they haven't told us. They sure are trying to sell pass holders that they want our business, every time they call I hear a canned speech about how much they value us. I think they may have gone too far last year, and are trying to quietly about face a bit.

The hurricane definitely doesn't account for 4%. The 4% they quoted was a combination of hurricane, shift in 1 week of Christmas holiday and the decline at DLR which they blamed on the fact that the prior year had a bump from the 60th anniversary stuff. They didn't quantify how much came from each issue. For the hurricane I would guess around 1.5% to 2%. If you figure 90 days on average in a quarter then that's roughly 2.2% of the total number of days lost, but we are talking about domestic attendance and the hurricane didn't impact DLR so it's probably somewhere less than 2% of the total decline. I don't know how they calculate the impact of shifting holiday weeks. Without inside information that would be impossible to caculate or verify. The DLR impact seems logical but again is hard to quantify.

The overall trend had been a decline for several straight quarters but that was coming off of pretty large attendance increases for the past several years. If you look longer term at something like a 3 or 5 year trend the numbers are up. The company will always try to spin things to look less negative, but if there is a pretty significant drop off year over year when we hit September year end there will be no hiding it. Especially with the expected boost from Avatar opening. Analysts and investors will be asking tough questions about slipping attendance even if the revenues are up.

 

[larryz]

XenForo supports Character mapping ?

I've been able to copy over ĀÎÎ ЌїЙДѕ ӧḞ ΛḕꚐꚍꬴŘŝ.