Rapid Fill Mug Program Fails (at more ways than you might think)

[Laketravis]

Stealing soda from McDonalds isn't common because most people go there to eat not just for a drink.

It isn't common? All they would have to do is not order a drink with their meal and refill their coffee mug or sports bottle. Or ask for regular water, be handed a small empty cup, and fill it with Sprite. Or order three meals and just one beverage. Those 16 year olds behind the counter don't care. Millions of people walk into a McDonald's (or Burger King, or Whataburger, etc) every day and each one is a potential beverage thief. Many of those locations are hot as well. I've sat in the lobby of both Drury hotels on the San Antonio Riverwalk numerous times and observed a number of people walk in, grab a clear plastic cup next to the soda fountain, fill it with a beverage of their choice, and then leave. Unless someone has some hard stats I'm inclined to believe their exposure to pilferage is just as high and common as WDW resorts, if not more so.

And as stated earlier, it's one thing to restrict beverage dispensing to a particular beverage holder for the length of your stay. That would effectively address many of the situations you described. But it's another to limit the time interval between those refills during that stay. As hot as it is and as thirsty as I might be, who's to say I can't down a couple of Cokes in a 3 minute period?

 

[larryz]

End of the day, you have to ask: why would a cost-sensitive company put the drink machines customer-facing in the first place? The answer, my friends, is to save on labor costs. I think Disney forgot that fact, because some suit with a spreadsheet pointed out they're "losing" money on the soft drinks due to uncontrolled fills/refills (completely forgetting to factor in the original reason the machines were set up the way they are).

I wonder how much more they spent to automate them with RFID chips than it would have taken to just turn them back around and have a CM do the filling?

 

[Laketravis]

End of the day, you have to ask: why would a cost-sensitive company put the drink machines customer-facing in the first place? The answer, my friends, is to save on labor costs. I think Disney forgot that fact, because some suit with a spreadsheet pointed out they're "losing" money on the soft drinks due to uncontrolled fills/refills (completely forgetting to factor in the original reason the machines were set up the way they are).

I wonder how much more they spent to automate them with RFID chips than it would have taken to just turn them back around and have a CM do the filling?

A lot more than they paid the suit who originally figured out the cost of everyone helping themselves to free drinks if the dispensers were self-serve and not monitored would still be less than the labor costs to have an employee control access.

 

[Goofyernmost]

So........it's not a problem but it's a problem?

Not to the extent that a Disney resort would have to deal with it, but, it is a problem, just not as large. It is large enough that they have taken steps to make it go away by posting the signs. So we cannot say that "other places just ignore it. They do not!

 

[Laketravis]

Not to the extent that a Disney resort would have to deal with it, but, it is a problem, just not as large. It is large enough that they have taken steps to make it go away by posting the signs. So we cannot say that "other places just ignore it. They do not!

They certainly don't ignore it - in fact, it looks like it's a big enough problem that they press charges:

http://www.break.com/article/cody-morris-mcdonalds-felony-for-soda-in-water-cup-3015981

http://www.inquisitr.com/224208/mcdonalds-soda-theft-could-land-man-in-jail-for-five-years/

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/04/24/man-arrested-for-stealing-soda-refill/

The difference appears to be that they choose to address abuse on an individual basis.

 

[GoofGoof]

It isn't common? All they would have to do is not order a drink with their meal and refill their coffee mug or sports bottle. Or ask for regular water, be handed a small empty cup, and fill it with Sprite. Or order three meals and just one beverage. Those 16 year olds behind the counter don't care. Millions of people walk into a McDonald's (or Burger King, or Whataburger, etc) every day and each one is a potential beverage thief. Many of those locations are hot as well. I've sat in the lobby of both Drury hotels on the San Antonio Riverwalk numerous times and observed a number of people walk in, grab a clear plastic cup next to the soda fountain, fill it with a beverage of their choice, and then leave. Unless someone has some hard stats I'm inclined to believe their exposure to pilferage is just as high and common as WDW resorts, if not more so.

And as stated earlier, it's one thing to restrict beverage dispensing to a particular beverage holder for the length of your stay. That would effectively address many of the situations you described. But it's another to limit the time interval between those refills during that stay. As hot as it is and as thirsty as I might be, who's to say I can't down a couple of Cokes in a 3 minute period?

I've seen fast food employees confront customers who try to take soda without paying. I think it's more common than you think. I've also seen signs at various locations saying refills are for same visit only. Disney chooses not to confront guests directly because it might ruin their "magical" vacation. It also probably saves on labor dollars not having CMs monitor the stations.

As far as the time between refills I think it's more about stopping people from sharing a drink or dumping it into another container than trying to restrict the amount of soda consumed. They want you to pay for 3 drinks not 1.

 

[Laketravis]

I've seen fast food employees confront customers who try to take soda without paying. I think it's more common than you think.

I agree it's very common, just wondered why that industry hasn't adopted the same controlled-access that WDW has or just move the dispensers back behind the counter. Apparently they go a much different route and prosecute at the individual level. Admittedly, that's something WDW might prefer not to do but then it doesn't stop them from confronting shoplifters on Main Street:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/ever-see-someone-get-busted-at-disney.870262/page-11#post-7598579

.

 

[GoofGoof]

I agree it's very common, just wondered why that industry hasn't adopted the same controlled-access that WDW has or just move the dispensers back behind the counter. Apparently they go a much different route and prosecute at the individual level. Admittedly, that's something WDW might prefer not to do but then it doesn't stop them from confronting shoplifters on Main Street:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/ever-see-someone-get-busted-at-disney.870262/page-11#post-7598579

.

I think it comes down to perception of the crime. Shoplifting from a store is very clearly a crime and people know there is a good chance they will not only get in trouble but will likely be arrested for doing it. I think a lot of people don't look at taking the soda as a serious crime (or even a crime at all). I could see guests getting upset if they or their children were reprimanded by a CM for taking soda. Nobody is going to get mad at Disney for busting them shoplifting. I'm not sayin I agree with it, but I think it's that perception that has resulted in Disney's passive aggressive approach to policing the drink stations.

 

[GoofGoof]

The big soda stealers are going to die of diabetes and heart disease so Disney will have their revenge in the end. From a religious stand point these people are also committing a deadly sin and probably two deadly sins. Gluttony and Sloth.

Not if they drink Coke Zero...Maybe just a brain tumor from the artificial sweeteners.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I agree it's very common, just wondered why that industry hasn't adopted the same controlled-access that WDW has. Apparently they go a much different route and prosecute at the individual level. Admittedly, that's something WDW might prefer not to do but then it doesn't stop them from confronting shoplifters on Main Street:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/ever-see-someone-get-busted-at-disney.870262/page-11#post-7598579

.

It seems like Disney would have the advantage in going toward a more technological approach to the problem because it requires fewer new installations. How many McDonalds are there compared to how many Disney restaurants exist. The cost to McD's would be huge. They also have made the choice that they don't want to make thieves happy. They don't want them back in the stores if they are just going to steal from them. Disney, for some reason seems to really want them. Perhaps it is because a one day ticket to a theme park is more then a daily visit to a McD's for a couple of months. And the degree of loss, percentage wise, when it comes to sodas, is much less then a massive chain would have. Still enough to make an electronic attempt to control it, but, not enough for unnecessary confrontation. I'm sure it is a calculated decision. I think that the RFID solution is probably effective to the degree that Disney hoped it would be.

 

[ford91exploder]

No. You don't think that flies get into your local restaurants? It happens, usually it depends on the time of year. It's not like you can spray the food to keep the flies off of them. We have regular pest control come in and have other bug preventatives but we still get flies that come in when the door opens. There is NOTHING you can do about it. How long have you worked in a food establishment?

There is a big difference between a random fly buzzing about and a colony of flies in a bakery case (or a swarm of yellow jackets around a poolside soft drink dispenser) and yes I've seen BOTH at WDW on multiple occasions both are caused by inadequate sanitation in the affected area.

 

[Laketravis]

It seems like Disney would have the advantage in going toward a more technological approach to the problem because it requires fewer new installations. How many McDonalds are there compared to how many Disney restaurants exist. The cost to McD's would be huge. They also have made the choice that they don't want to make thieves happy. They don't want them back in the stores if they are just going to steal from them. Disney, for some reason seems to really want them. Perhaps it is because a one day ticket to a theme park is more then a daily visit to a McD's for a couple of months. And the degree of loss, percentage wise, when it comes to sodas, is much less then a massive chain would have. Still enough to make an electronic attempt to control it, but, not enough for unnecessary confrontation. I'm sure it is a calculated decision. I think that the RFID solution is probably effective to the degree that Disney hoped it would be.

I agree with all of that, and leaves me with nothing more than my original point. That Disney passionately went the extra mile to prevent that rather small percentage-wise degree of loss. No margin is safe from scrutiny at WDW

 

[ford91exploder]

Not a serious is in and of itself but a symptom of larger problem.

Precisely in and of itself it's not a problem but it's a symptom of what's going wrong at Disney which at one time was one of the most customer focused companies on the planet, It's now devolved to being the poster child for what's wrong with american business practices.

 

[Goofyernmost]

There is a big difference between a random fly buzzing about and a colony of flies in a bakery case (or a swarm of yellow jackets around a poolside soft drink dispenser) and yes I've seen BOTH at WDW on multiple occasions both are caused by inadequate sanitation in the affected area.

Do you have any ideas on how to control that situation when dealing with nature? You cannot use pesticides in a food area. For bakery stuff, along with outdoor vending, the amount of traffic, the type of draw that those things have for insects, would require some pretty massive stuff. They don't come in because they are attracted to dirt, the come for the ingredients in the food and drinks. Natural draws for them. You cannot do anything to keep that invasion less once it is introduced. That is how I see it, which is why I asked... what do you think can be done about it that would be absolutely foolproof?

 

[GoofGoof]

I agree with all of that, and leaves me with nothing more than my original point. That Disney passionately went the extra mile to prevent that rather small percentage-wise degree of loss. No margin is safe from scrutiny at WDW

I have no stats to prove it, but maybe the small percentage was growing. Disney has a passionate fan base with sites like this one where people share information and tips. Sometimes those tips are ways to game the system. Similar to the guest assistance card problem, the more people find out about a loophole the more problems you tend to face and eventually you hit a tipping point. I also think it's hard for the paying public to shell out $18 for a mug and watch some guy fill a cooler jug next to them. It's only fair to charge everyone. I just think they could have done it easier and maybe even cheaper with signs and a little extra CM training.

 

[GoofGoof]

Do you have any ideas on how to control that situation when dealing with nature? You cannot use pesticides in a food area. For bakery stuff, along with outdoor vending, the amount of traffic, the type of draw that those things have for insects, would require some pretty massive stuff. They don't come in because they are attracted to dirt, the come for the ingredients in the food and drinks. Natural draws for them. You cannot do anything to keep that invasion less once it is introduced. That is how I see it, which is why I asked... what do you think can be done about it that would be absolutely foolproof?

Animatronic flies...easy way to control nature

 

[Goofyernmost]

I agree with all of that, and leaves me with nothing more than my original point. That Disney passionately went the extra mile to prevent that rather small percentage-wise degree of loss. No margin is safe from scrutiny at WDW

The thing is that small percentage wise, does not mean small in total in and of itself. Every cup of soda that is "stolen" cannot be sold. That represents a loss not only of product but of profit as well. However, it still is relatively inexpensive to utilize technology in Disney then to monitor it on a personal level as opposed to large chains.

 

[G00fyDad]

Wow. Yeah, that would definitely sway my view on the matter. What resort was that? I've never personally witnessed such abuse but the resorts I stay at are a small representation of the entire site.

Pop Century.

 

[Jon81uk]

And there are thousands of McDonald's (and Taco Bells, and Whataburgers, etc) that have the fountains out in the dining areas. Not all of them, but many of them across the country. Are they not susceptible to the same supposedly rampant level of "theft" that WDW resorts are? Why have those chains not adopted RFID and metered usage technology at the POS level? As sensitive as their sales and margins have been lately to slumps I'd think that area would be a prime target for revenue optimization.

Because you aren't staying in a hotel room above the store giving easy access to their dining area.

 

[ford91exploder]

Do you have any ideas on how to control that situation when dealing with nature? You cannot use pesticides in a food area. For bakery stuff, along with outdoor vending, the amount of traffic, the type of draw that those things have for insects, would require some pretty massive stuff. They don't come in because they are attracted to dirt, the come for the ingredients in the food and drinks. Natural draws for them. You cannot do anything to keep that invasion less once it is introduced. That is how I see it, which is why I asked... what do you think can be done about it that would be absolutely foolproof?

Yeah the same way my local bakery does it, removing crumbs from the bakery cabinet with frequent applications of wipes saturated with sanitizer. Same goes for the outdoor dispensers wipe up spills and wipe machines down with sanitizer

Oh wait this requires EMPLOYEES to spend time performing non-revenue work. Impractical at WDW...