Raining On Every Parade

[_caleb]

From the Epcot Journey of Water thread:

It's the perfect new brand identity for Epcot! Target 5 year olds! Take on Legoland directly!

Take out that boring Land pavilion and put in bounce houses and ball pits! Get rid of Seas and put in Slip 'N Slides!

The brilliant strategy writes itself!

#epcot2024

From the Tiana's Bayou Adventure thread:

The mural is modernist trash. Nothing artistic about it. It looks like the scribble of a 4 year old. Gone of the days are Da Vinci, Michelangelo, and Raphael. This mural is a disgrace that clashes with every bit of detail in that park. Not even would such a piece belong in Tomorrowland. If you think I’m being overly harsh, I apologize. But I detest modern art. Art can be judged objectively. Objectively beautiful art has meaningful internal order. Simple as that. I understand this celebrity artist has similar work elsewhere and this work is in line with the other pieces. It’s just not objectively good art. It also makes no sense as to why it is there. It is probably just a vanity project by someone at WDI. Nothing more.

These recent posts are far from being the worst offenders and I am not intending to pick on any individual members, but I think they are good examples of how a small, but prolific number of people consistently suck all the fun out of participating on this site.

Someone posts, "my 5 year old liked the new thing Disney built" and it's met with this type of rude, condescending, mocking posts dripping with scorn. I believe it stifles participation here for innocuous posts to be met with this sort of bitter sarcasm.

Look, we get that Disney hurt some fans feelings by changing. It's clear some feel disappointed by the Company over the years. But this is a Disney fan site; if it’s not safe to post about what we (as fans) enjoy or appreciate about the parks because anything positive is going to be met with derision, people aren't going to post.

And then there are those who may not post mean spirited content themselves, but routinely "like" those sort of posts. This only pours fuel on the fire.

My hope is that we can do a better job of creating a friendly environment around here that expresses disagreement in more agreeable ways. Every positive post shouldn't be seen as an invitation to respond with negativity.

 

[doctornick]

Exactly. I certainly have my share of criticism for how the parks are being run, but the endless nitpicking - and worse the dismissiveness of other people’s (positive) assessments - just becomes so tedious. It just makes it exhausting to have a reasonable conversation. It definitely has lead to me to post less frequently here because I simply don’t have the time to put up with that much negativity

 

[SaucyBoy]

I've met more insulting and vile people on this forum than I ever have on Twitter. These people are beyond reproach and it's no wonder Disney has stopped catering to them, who wants a bunch of maniacal adults in your target audience. I mean, I got dragged through the mud for saying I liked the new vibe of Epcot. It's ridiculous.

 

[EricsBiscuit]

From the Epcot Journey of Water thread:

From the Tiana's Bayou Adventure thread:

These recent posts are far from being the worst offenders and I am not intending to pick on any individual members, but I think they are good examples of how a small, but prolific number of people consistently suck all the fun out of participating on this site.

Someone posts, "my 5 year old liked the new thing Disney built" and it's met with this type of rude, condescending, mocking posts dripping with scorn. I believe it stifles participation here for innocuous posts to be met with this sort of bitter sarcasm.

Look, we get that Disney hurt some fans feelings by changing. It's clear some feel disappointed by the Company over the years. But this is a Disney fan site; if it’s not safe to post about what we (as fans) enjoy or appreciate about the parks because anything positive is going to be met with derision, people aren't going to post.

And then there are those who may not post mean spirited content themselves, but routinely "like" those sort of posts. This only pours fuel on the fire.

My hope is that we can do a better job of creating a friendly environment around here that expresses disagreement in more agreeable ways. Every positive post shouldn't be seen as an invitation to respond with negativity.

I stand by every claim made in the post. This is not the thread to debate the merits (or lack thereof) of a mural in TBA, so I won’t do that. But, I wasn’t targeting my post to anyone in particular. I was sharing my opinion on the mural. Apparently I struck a chord. I give Disney credit when it’s due, but when they continue to degenerate, I call it like it is. My post was not threatening in any way to any poster here. It was an indictment against the falling standards at WDI. As long as you’re not a troll and you’re not insulting any other poster, you should be able to share your opinions freely, whether they be positive or negative about what Disney is doing.

 

[_caleb]

I stand by every claim made in the post. This is not the thread to debate the merits (or lack thereof) of a mural in TBA, so I won’t do that. But, I wasn’t targeting my post to anyone in particular. I was sharing my opinion on the mural. Apparently I struck a chord. I give Disney credit when it’s due, but when they continue to degenerate, I call it like it is. My post was not threatening in any way to any poster here. It was an indictment against the falling standards at WDI. As long as you’re not a troll and you’re not insulting any other poster, you should be able to share your opinions freely, whether they be positive or negative about what Disney is doing.

Truth exists. Some art is objectively better than others. Should all artists get a participation trophy? I really don’t care if you think I’m a bigot or not. All I know is that mural is objectively ugly and doesn’t belong anywhere in the MK.

Art is not a matter of truth. Standards of art are relative; different times and places hold different standards across different genres and styles, times and cultures.

You are criticizing the artwork of a Black woman who creates art reflective of her culture (which is Tiana’s culture in the films and on the ride) by holding it to a standard you insist is universal.

Would you walk into an art gallery in Sri Lanka and declare the work of indigenous artists there to be “objectively bad” because it didn’t fit your/Western standards (which you call universal)? I’d hope you’d be more circumspect.

The artist of the TBA mural, Malaika Favorite, is a talented and accomplished artist within her community, which very intentionally pushes back against some of those “objective” standards often imposed by others. I believe there is something sacred in expressions of Black culture, the stories and imageries of people who have overcome much and have historically been held to someone else’s standards of beauty, art, goodness, and value. I found your comments disrespectful of that dignity.

It’s fine if you don’t like the art. It’s fine if you’re unhappy with how TBA is shaping up. You are free to have and to state your opinions. But to declare someone’s art to be objectively ugly is ethnocentric, ignorant, and rude.

I am not trying to attack you here, and I’m not angry with you. I know you don’t care what I think, but I felt it important to state it anyway. I appreciate your consideration.

 

[_caleb]

I've met more insulting and vile people on this forum than I ever have on Twitter. These people are beyond reproach and it's no wonder Disney has stopped catering to them, who wants a bunch of maniacal adults in your target audience. I mean, I got dragged through the mud for saying I liked the new vibe of Epcot. It's ridiculous.

I’m not sure what it is that brings out the negativity here, but it can be aggressively abrasive, can’t it?

 

[EricsBiscuit]

Art is not a matter of truth. Standards of art are relative; different times and places hold different standards across different genres and styles, times and cultures.

You are criticizing the artwork of a Black woman who creates art reflective of her culture (which is Tiana’s culture in the films and on the ride) by holding it to a standard you insist is universal.

Would you walk into an art gallery in Sri Lanka and declare the work of indigenous artists there to be “objectively bad” because it didn’t fit your/Western standards (which you call universal)? I’d hope you’d be more circumspect.

The artist of the TBA mural, Malaika Favorite, is a talented and accomplished artist within her community, which very intentionally pushes back against some of those “objective” standards often imposed by others. I believe there is something sacred in expressions of Black culture, the stories and imageries of people who have overcome much and have historically been held to someone else’s standards of beauty, art, goodness, and value. I found your comments disrespectful of that dignity.

It’s fine if you don’t like the art. It’s fine if you’re unhappy with how TBA is shaping up. You are free to have and to state your opinions. But to declare someone’s art to be objectively ugly is ethnocentric, ignorant, and rude.

I am not trying to attack you here, and I’m not angry with you. I know you don’t care what I think, but I felt it important to state it anyway. I appreciate your consideration.

The inconvenient fact is that truth exists, and objective standards apply to art. The mural simply fails to pass muster, both as a piece by itself and in situ as it does not represent 1920’s New Orleans. Today I had the pleasure of visiting the John Ringling Museum in Sarasota, where they have 5 John Paul Rubens paintings. Here is one, The Defenders of the Eucharist:
This is art. This is quality. And the sad part is Disney used to offer quality art such as this at its parks. Even the more modern art by those such as Mary Blair were quality. One needs only look at attractions such as the American Adventure and the Hall of Presidents to find this quality. Modern art is regressive and I believe more people are waking up to that fact every day.

 

[_caleb]

The inconvenient fact is that truth exists, and objective standards apply to art.

You keep saying truth exists. I don’t deny that truth exists. I’m saying that what you’re calling “objective standards” really aren’t.

The mural simply fails to pass muster, both as a piece by itself and in situ as it does not represent 1920’s New Orleans.

It doesn’t represent 1920’s New Orleans? Why not? What do you know about the Black experience in the 1920s South? What should a community mural in the 1920 Louisiana bayou look like?

Today I had the pleasure of visiting the John Ringling Museum in Sarasota, where they have 5 John Paul Rubens paintings. Here is one, The Defenders of the Eucharist:View attachment 760596
This is art. This is quality. And the sad part is Disney used to offer quality art such as this at its parks. Even the more modern art by those such as Mary Blair were quality.

This is a beautiful piece. And I love Mary Blair’s work! They are very different styles, though. Are you saying that the facade of Its a Small World should be evaluated against this Dutch baroque painting from the 1600s? Or that the mural on Tiana’s Bayou Adventure should look like the Rubens painting?

One needs only look at attractions such as the American Adventure and the Hall of Presidents to find this quality. Modern art is regressive and I believe more people are waking up to that fact every day.

I think you’d do well to broaden your horizons. Around the world in every time and place, standards of beauty and art are relative to culture.

As a participant on a Disney message board, I’d think you might be more keenly aware of how the art world has historically looked down on things like animation, super hero films, and themed environments. They say about Disney what you continue to say about the art of an elder Southern Black woman’s work.

 

[Mr Ferret 75]

And here's me thinking that this was going to be a discussion about weather...

 

[EricsBiscuit]

You keep saying truth exists. I don’t deny that truth exists. I’m saying that what you’re calling “objective standards” really aren’t.

It doesn’t represent 1920’s New Orleans? Why not? What do you know about the Black experience in the 1920s South? What should a community mural in the 1920 Louisiana bayou look like?

This is a beautiful piece. And I love Mary Blair’s work! They are very different styles, though. Are you saying that the facade of Its a Small World should be evaluated against this Dutch baroque painting from the 1600s? Or that the mural on Tiana’s Bayou Adventure should look like the Rubens painting?

I think you’d do well to broaden your horizons. Around the world in every time and place, standards of beauty and art are relative to culture.

As a participant on a Disney message board, I’d think you might be more keenly aware of how the art world has historically looked down on things like animation, super hero films, and themed environments. They say about Disney what you continue to say about the art of an elder Southern Black woman’s work.

What I’m saying is that the TBA mural is not good. Pure and simple. It sticks out like a sore thumb, does not correspond with the art of that time period, and even if it was in a different site it wouldn’t look good. There is a difference between being a great piece of art for that time and place and being a great piece of art overall. I’m talking about the latter. I have no doubt Disney hires the most talented artists they can find, but, as we can see with this mural, the results aren’t always good. Their critique can be debated and even if they are using the same arguments it is possible that their application is wrong.

 

[networkpro]

Arguments based on conflicting opinions will always be contentious. Why not agree to disagree and just move on instead of devolving into diatribes about which value system is the most correct or virtuous?

It's not like anyone slapped your mother, they just don't accept your valuation.

 

[_caleb]

Arguments based on conflicting opinions will always be contentious. Why not agree to disagree and just move on instead of devolving into diatribes about which value system is the most correct or virtuous?

It's not like anyone slapped your mother, they just don't accept your valuation.

I agree. I started this thread to discuss many members' constant negativity. And whenever I try to engage a bit by asking, "Why do you feel that way?" or "Have you considered other ways of looking at it?" I'm typically met with things like:

• Gatekeeping: "The TBA mural is objectively bad!"
• Ideology: "Disney is pushing an agenda."
• Nostalgia: "Disney used to be amazing and now it's terrible."
• Apples to Oranges Comparisons: "Universal can build an entire park in the time it takes Disney to set up a ladder."
• Politics: "Disney is in bed with the Chinese Communist Party."
• Attack: "You're just a pixie duster/paid shill/naive!"

All of these are done in mocking, sarcastic, contempt.

I participate here because I enjoy talking with other fans about Disney's Parks, films, and business. I understand Disney fans being passionate, but why are they also angry, mean, and rude?

Many of us post here very frequently, yet never seem to progress in understanding. There's little sense of camaraderie, benefit of the doubt is rarely given, and it's exceedingly rare that anyone would admit they were wrong or apologize for being rude.

The best fan communities are those which can develop a sense of connection. WDW Magic has had that in the past (or, at least I thought it did). But these days, it seems more and more like flame wars, arguments, and put-downs.

 

[networkpro]

I agree.
The best fan communities are those which can develop a sense of connection. WDW Magic has had that in the past (or, at least I thought it did). But these days, it seems more and more like flame wars, arguments, and put-downs.

It's more a reflection of society these days, less civil and more focused on a person, and that their opinions are best for everyone to follow.

Oh you've got me on the political angle, but remember that the ownership of the Chinese parks has Disney as the minority participant in both ventures.

 

[Disstevefan1]

Look, we get that Disney hurt some fans feelings by changing.

Ha, its not about hurt feelings.

And we all understand Disney is going to change stuff, its when the change is BAD is when there is an issue.

I loved Horizons. Disney tore Horizons down and put up Mission Space. I loved Horizons but I do like Mission space very much. On the other hand, there are folks who hate Mission space. Different folks like different things.

I really think Moana would have fit better in AK than EPCOT.

There are many things about the EPCOT renovations I don't like and I think it was a waste of money.

I really liked the old Universe of Energy's ride system and I wish that was just a re theme to show the future of energy without fossil fuels. I have not ridden Guardians yet, and it seems like a fun ride, but I am the only one in my family who will ride it. Compared to the old UoE ride system where absolutely everyone could ride, the Guardians attraction lost capacity compared to UoE.

As for Tiana, I know it wont be as good as Splash, but I will still like it as a fun flume ride.

 

[_caleb]

Ha, its not about hurt feelings.

And we all understand Disney is going to change stuff, its when the change is BAD is when there is an issue.

I loved Horizons. Disney tore Horizons down and put up Mission Space. I loved Horizons but I do like Mission space very much. On the other hand, there are folks who hate Mission space. Different folks like different things.

I really think Moana would have fit better in AK than EPCOT.

There are many things about the EPCOT renovations I don't like and I think it was a waste of money.

I really liked the old Universe of Energy's ride system and I wish that was just a re theme to show the future of energy without fossil fuels. I have not ridden Guardians yet, and it seems like a fun ride, but I am the only one in my family who will ride it. Compared to the old UoE ride system where absolutely everyone could ride, the Guardians attraction lost capacity compared to UoE.

As for Tiana, I know it wont be as good as Splash, but I will still like it as a fun flume ride.

See, I have absolutely no issue with you having these opinions or stating them the way you have here, even though I disagree on a couple points.

I think key phrases (which you used multiple times in your post) are “I think,” and “I don’t like.” These are opinions (valid and thoughtful ones at that), stated as opinions.

You didn’t assert that yours is the only logical, intelligent, or true opinion. You don’t demean or disrespect anyone else. Your post seems like a great way to engage in fan discussion.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

See, I have absolutely no issue with you having these opinions or stating them the way you have here, even though I disagree on a couple points.

I think key phrases (which you used multiple times in your post) are “I think,” and “I don’t like.” These are opinions (valid and thoughtful ones at that), stated as opinions.

You didn’t assert that yours is the only logical, intelligent, or true opinion. You don’t demean or disrespect anyone else. Your post seems like a great way to engage in fan discussion.

I tend to feel the same way, but don't know if that's just where fan culture is in 2023. Or maybe it has always been that way; I can't help but read a lot of posts in the voice of Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons, and he was created long before the Internet.

For me, any thread that has to do with Epcot becomes tedious very quickly. I generally agree that the park was far better before it began to be dismantled in the mid-1990s and that it still seems a little directionless. So many posts, though, speak of the original park as some kind of temple of learning and of its decline is akin to the burning of the Library of Alexandria. That means the discussion very quickly becomes a lot of posturing about having 'higher standards' where any perspective on what Epcot really was and is goes out the window and there's a lot of sneering at the idea that it would at all resemble a theme park that primarily catered to families with children.

 

[_caleb]

I tend to feel the same way, but don't know if that's just where fan culture is in 2023. Or maybe it has always been that way; I can't help but read a lot of posts in the voice of Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons, and he was created long before the Internet.

For me, any thread that has to do with Epcot becomes tedious very quickly. I generally agree that the park was far better before it began to be dismantled in the mid-1990s and that it still seems a little directionless. So many posts, though, speak of the original park as some kind of temple of learning and of its decline is akin to the burning of the Library of Alexandria. That means the discussion very quickly becomes a lot of posturing about having 'higher standards' where any perspective on what Epcot really was and is goes out the window and there's a lot of sneering at the idea that it would at all resemble a theme park that primarily catered to families with children.

Yes, I find the Epcot threads to be particularly fraught with that sort of “it was perfect and Disney ruined it” mentality. I completely understand the nostalgia for the original Epcot Center, but the mere suggestion that there may have been shortcomings will get some pretty scathing responses.

Again, I have no problem with people having different perspectives. My issue is with how things are expressed, and how people are treated.

Lest I come across as sanctimonious, I have been guilty of some of the same things that bother me so much about the interaction here. I just want it to change for the better!

 

[flynnibus]

I agree. I started this thread to discuss many members' constant negativity.

So your solution to dealing with negativity is to create new negativity about it? Just use the ignore button if these posts are detracting from your enjoyment of the site. This thread's tactic does nothing but try to drum up your own approved drama.

 

[_caleb]

So your solution to dealing with negativity is to create new negativity about it? Just use the ignore button if these posts are detracting from your enjoyment of the site. This thread's tactic does nothing but try to drum up your own approved drama.

Nice

 

[Mr Ferret 75]

So your solution to dealing with negativity is to create new negativity about it? Just use the ignore button if these posts are detracting from your enjoyment of the site. This thread's tactic does nothing but try to drum up your own approved drama.

Could have taken your own advice and ignored this thread.