Quality, Meg and real world dynamics...

[copcarguyp71]

I posted this over in the "Who is Meg" thread and after the suggestion was made I decided to throw it out there for discussion as its' own topic. I am in hopes that this thread stays solely on the topic of WDW and does not head towards the inevitable Uni comparisons but we shall see...

I posted a thought on this a while ago and just for yucks I will do it again.

I do not know how many of you were fans of Roller Coaster Tycoon for the PC but I was (for a time) totally engrossed in it. One thing I noted was that no matter how carefully you planned and thought out your parks at some point they always fell prey to their own size. Things got away from you no matter how you tried to deal with them. Rides broke down no matter how many maintenance people you had, cleanliness suffered no matter how many janitorial staff you had and things just generally ran amok beyond a certain park size. I wonder how much of those algorithms were taken from empirical proof and statistics... I wonder if WDW might not just be falling prey to the sheer strain of their own size and no matter how they try to fix it the train still keeps flying off the rails.

I am no Meg fan by any means but perhaps no matter who is at the helm the parks have too much detrimental forward momentum for anyone to be able to control or improve, kind of like a buzzed Irishman running down a steep incline...eventually his momentum gets the best of him and he falls down (yes, it is possible I am speaking from experience)

I just have to wonder if it is not time to cease expansions in trying to keep up with the Jones's (UNI) and pull back to internalize and fix what is wrong. Sure we are all excited about new attractions, lands, parks and the like but I for one would rather see a renewed sense of vigor from within. Fill vacant buildings, revive forgotten rides (which is being done to a minor extent), and "plus" the guests experience in other ways besides DVC outbuild, overlays, promised lands, MM+, Etc.

Sorry if this got a little off the Meg subject and more onto other ills but perhaps we all could consider that whoever is in charge might be getting set up to disappoint if the board and CEO do not look at the directions they are forging towards...discuss.

 

[wdwfan4ver]

Your idea is fine for Epcot and Mk, but not all 4 theme parks in terms of filling in vacant buildings. Epcot has plenty of vacant buildings and that shouldn't be a problem from a theme standpoint.

AK is a park that an expansion is needed for fixing the problems such as the Yeti. The way to fix problems at AK is by adding attractions based on the amount of stuff AK currently has. AK doesn't have a lot of attractions if Everest and parts of Dinoland are down.

DHS has some buildings that are vacant, but you have you also have to replace current attractions at the same time to prevent theme mess or something you don't have replace in the long term. I am saying that because of Sounds Dangerous is a building that is vacant for most of the year with American Idol Experience close by. American Idol Experience at this point isn't a long term attraction and that means American Idol Experience needs replaced at the same time as filling in Sounds Dangerous building.

 

[kap91]

I think you are at least partially correct and indeed I think we have been seeing the beginning of a strategy similar to this for the past several years ---we've seen the rate of refurbishments and small improvements as well as the slow repurposing of previously only seasonal or completely shuttered places (carousel of progress, adventurelqand veranda, heck even tomorrowland terrace and the diamond hotshot are open a lot more than they used to be. ) fast pass+ and my magic+ and interactive games also show an increased attention to efficiency and guest experience-trying to do more with what is already there.

I posted this in another thread but it seems to me that with current crowd levels and the sheer size of the resort the last thing WDW wants at the moment is a ton more guests or too many more things to mange. They're in an infrastructure stage that they've been essentially forced into because of their success. I know my magic + is getting a bad rap because Disney essentially spent a billion dollars on fancy fast pass while universal is building impressive attractions at a startling rate but the motivations are often overlooked. Universalbis a much smaller resort that up until Harry Potter had essentially been stagnating for nearly a decade and was never as popular as Disney to begin with. Now that they have new management their primary concern is attractingn as many guests as they can -new attractions that are bigger and better than everything else do that. They're insanely marketable. WDW thanks to a variety of factors has turned into a huge resort that continually draws in tons of people- frankly it's starting to be more than the parks can handle-which can result in less than satisfactory guet experience. While adding attractions can help alleviate this problem it doesn't fix it because it also just draws more guests. Simultaneously the world has gotten increasingly technically literate and tech based advertising, big data, etc. are the future backbone of how business functions. Everything Disney has done in the past 5-7 years has shown an intention to improving the guest experience as well as their ability to to manage and distribute crowds. The whole "next gen" movement is at its heart (besides a revenue booster) is a gigantic investment in logistics that while not as shiny and fun as all the new things Universal has been/is getting is equally important to the future of WDW as those new attractions are to increasing Universal's reputation. WDW is preparing itself for its next 40 years and trying to solve the problems it's popularity and size has caused. I know I'm starting to venture off topic and I don't want to turn this into another my magic sucks thread. My point is that you are absolutely right - at a certain point a resort just gets increasingly difficult to manage. Combine this with the fan communities insistence on photographing every spec of mold on a monorail-while neglecting to take and post photos of everything that is fixed and in tip top shape and the impression is easily created that things are worse than they are. To me it seems that WDW has been trying very hard to get all it's ducks in a row perse to make the resort manageable for the future - so they can build more, bring in more guests, etc. everything they've done at WDW for quite a whole has shown a focus on refurbishment, revitalization, improved efficiency, and capacity. It sea to me that Dianey fully intends to continue expanding the resort -specifically the parks(with Avatar and the various rumors about Star Wars, cars, and so on)--they're not idiots and surely fully aware of each parks shortcomings. However it makes much more sense to prepare yourself for the future by fixing what you have and managing guests both for their and your sake before embarking on anything major. Obviously Disney wants to make as much money as they can and that eventually involves building more and attracting more guests but considering the number of guests that they have and the size of the resort-focusing on what they are seems to be the smarter course of action even if it doesn't mean E-tickets every year.

Edit:I apologize for some of the typos above-I typed this on my phone which has some issues displaying the site in addition to my clumsy thumbs. I'll try to fix them later.

Edit2: I know someone is going to look at my post and point to the Yeti and say "how is that improved refurbishment?" It's not an example of it - however it's one of only a few outliers-and it furthers my point about how concerned Disney is about efficiency and guest experience-shutting down the attraction for nearly a year to fix it would be horrible for distribution of guests in the park as well as spark a wave of guest dissatisfaction (and likely a plummet in attendance as well which they would equally detest.) One could argue that the park should have been built with more to begin with or it's a reason to build more and they'd be right. But you can't change the 90's and lo and behold Animal Kingdom is getting a large expansion---and when it's open I would expect(and I know I'm not the first to say this)---that Everest will go down.

 

[copcarguyp71]

Your idea is fine for Epcot and Mk, but not all 4 theme parks.

AK is a park that an expansion is needed for fixing the problems such as the Yeti.

DHS has some areas that are abounded, but you have you also have to replace current attractions at the same time to prevent a mess in a theme. I am saying this because lets say Sounds Dangerous gets a Star Wars attraction and that could cause a theme mess if American Idol Experience doesn't change its theme.

Technically all four parks and their respective resorts fall under on VP I believe. Yes, HS and AK are smaller but they are part of the huge machine that is WDW. Taken as individual items I would agree though. Going back to the Yeti and Sounds Dangerous just reinforces my ideas of internalizing instead of growing. I really think fixing what is there first before moving on would be the best course of action...looking in from the outside anyway.

 

[LondonGopher]

Universal is a much smaller resort that up until Harry Potter had essentially been stagnating for nearly a decade and was never as popular as Disney to begin with. Now that they have new management their primary concern is attractingn as many guests as they can -new attractions that are bigger and better than everything else do that. They're insanely marketable. WDW thanks to a variety of factors has turned into a huge resort that continually draws in tons of people- frankly it's starting to be more than the parks can handle-which can result in less than satisfactory guet experience. While adding attractions can help alleviate this problem it doesn't fix it because it also just draws more guests.

Fascinating topic. "The crowds that are "starting to be more than the parks can handle" could ABSOLUTELY be spread out. It seems from the actions (hmm...non-actions) of TDO that they don't get that. And by that I mean, specifically - if you put a blockbuster in a park - people will go. People who would NEVER have gone to Uni before are skipping at least a day at WDW to see Harry Potter.

HOW MUCH EASIER would people take to going to a blockbuster on Disney property? in Epcot? Or DHS?

MK gets all the (relative) love and attention and it's being loved to death. Like Steinbeck's mouse (no pun intended)! And it's due to get worse with the new parade and the 7DMT. It seems that TDO has stopped believing that the other three parks can ever draw even close to-comparable crowds and is just using them as overflow. This is DESPITE what is happening at Uni AND what happened at DCA. They must TRULY believe that both are just short-term blips. Or maybe they feel burned? AK is so beautifully and immersively themed (what we say we want) and it didn't draw like it was "supposed to", right?

Here's the thing, I think - people (generally) WANT Disney to succeed! For most Americans, Disney is all tied up in that '50s optimism that still looms large in our collective consciousness. So many of us are cynical - but I think it was George Carlin who called cynics "disappointed idealists". True, at least for me. So it should be easier for them to "do a Harry Potter". Please?!

^^^...tangent. Sorry.

 

[kap91]

Well it seems that AK and MGM are both the next parks to get major blockbusters. Avatar looks to be essentially a carsland for AK and I imagine Star Wars at Hollywood studios will be as well. It's more of a matter of when they build it rather than when. I think WDW just doesn't want or feel the need to build at an accelerated schedule-they really never have outside of initial park construction.

Of course another issue it brings up comes back to capacity at the MK-it's the flagship. Star Wars at DHS might get people to stay an extra day, or go to the park when they otherwise wouldn't but realistically how many people are going to take a vacation to Disney World and not visit the Magic Kingdom? I'm sure there are a few but I'd wager that it's less than 5%. So increased attendance at any park means increased attendance at the MK and resort as a whole---hence the need to be able to manage and disperse the crowds. I imagine the eventual goal if my magic+ will function like this:

"Hello-I see your taking a 4 day vacation to the world. You can reserve three attractions per day Here's our suggestions of what to do:

Friday (a day they project to be absolutely packed at the MK) : how about start with Epcot? Ride on Soarin etc.

Saturday (a day they expect to be less crowded in the morning at MK) Magic Kingdom and maybe try a night time safari on the savannah at Animal Kingdom..

So on an so forth. While people are free to change these suggestions - in my own short experience with fast pass+ I already find myself going with the majority of its suggestions (on time if not attraction) even if they're not what I would originally have picked. And I'm an experienced park goer that knows exactly when I would normally do something and exactly what I want to do - most guests don't and will likely follow the suggestions. This gives Disney a huge ability to disperse crowds at the park and eventually the resort as a whole-the system isn't there yet but they wouldn't have spent so much on it if they didn't have these kind of plans in store.

Building more at the other parks also makes more sense from a business perspective especially since Disney requires each unit to be profitable rather than the resort as a whole. I personally would like to see more built at the kingdom even as much as the other parks need it. But we're much more likely to see most development being centered at AK, and DHS not only because they need it most but because there comes a point where the park is so large and expensive to operate that it in itself won't be generating the cash flow without ticket prices that are substantially higher. FLE generated an additional 3000 cast alone that have to be paid. A park that's smaller - specifically in thinking of DHS is much cheaper to operate at the moment so it can stand the most development without eating into profit.

You're absolutely right that Disney should want to develop its 3 other parks more and while it might seem at the moment that they've been neglected I think it's just more a product of the recession + my magic+ + FLE that have distracted them. Now that they're mostly wrapped with those things I expect to see most resources poured into those parks with only enough at the MK to make it seem fresh. You're never going to see the pace of construction that Universal has been doing simply because the Universal parks need it far more to fix what they have and more importantly attract new guests while Disney really wants to equalize and get a firm grip on its operations-something that it has increasingly got better at. The expansion of the late 80's through 90's saw the resort grow huge and maintenance, show, and efficiency fell because of it. I know it's the popular thing these days to bash everything they do (and I cannot be a judge of how things were in the 70-80's as I wasn't there) but show quality, maintence, refurbishments, etc have skyrocketed since around the time Iger took over (correlation not necessarily causality).

I think management does understand that quality big attractions do draw people-they could not have witnessed cars and hp without learning this if they didn't know it already. Hence the Avatar push (and undoubtedly Star Wars at some point). However building this next generation of "land attractions" rather than the older build one attraction at a time philosophy makes an already expensive proposition even moreso. It brings a higher return as well which is why we'll continue to see that kind of development from now on I suspect. At the same time though I can understand why Disney would be in no rush to build these things as quickly as their neighbors especially when there is no pressing need to do so. Frankly it seems that Disney is building at the same speed or slightly quicker than they used to. I grew up going to WDW on a nearly bi-weekly basis and in that entire time I think the magic kingdom got two minor rides and not too much else happened at the other parks either - a notable new addition about every 3-5 years and it certainly seems like that's the pace things will be going in the future. Obviously I wish they'd go faster-all the better for me- but they have no pressing need to and doing things like my magic+ and increasing capacity through other means make as much or more sense as building new rides.

 

[copcarguyp71]

I just have to call into question how they are able to sink all of these monies into expansions when they cannot even revamp pavilions at EPCOT without sponsorship. If they cannot show any love for existing major attractions unless some super uber mega corporation throws money at them (so they say I guess) then where are all of these new monies coming from for entire lands? They have a park in EPCOT that, quite frankly they show little love to and yet they want people to flock to new attractions and lands with the attitude of "nothing to see here...move along" where one of their four major parks is concerned. I know this post is park-centric around EPCOT and I guess I get kind of emotional since it really is my favorite but I think the theme runs true on the other two as well.

DHS has many old attractions and The Indy stunt show being the same since the day it opened, tired backlot tour, Empty Sounds Dangerous, hit or miss features of TGMR and AK has Chester and Hester (varitable wasteland of wasted potential area), broken Yeti, Broken DInosaur and yet TDO forges ahead with the glitter and glam of expansions and opulent new resort venues.

Sorry for the rant...I just get very worked up that my pixie dust blood levels are being sapped and the facade is falling away for me each trip more and more. I truly hope that somehow somebody in management wakes up and sees some of the tarnish on the bumpers of the family car before they buy a weekend cruiser.

 

[GoofGoof]

Good topic. I agree the primary focus should be more refurb over expansion although for me it's more of a hybrid plan based on each park's needs. Don't react to anything a competitor is doing down the road but look internally to your own past for a roadmap back to the highest quality. The largest money invested at WDW in many moons (maybe ever) is for MM+ which by all accounts is not designed to bring in more guests but to extract more cash from existing customers. Based on this approach you might assume WDW is not attempting to bring in new guests, but attempting to enhance the experience extort more cash from existing guests. If this is the plan then it makes perfect sense to improve existing infrastructure and attractions rather than build new ones.

The problem comes when you look at DHS and AK which are both incomplete parks. DHS has lost its identity and is no longer a true studio park. Back lot tour needs to go. It's out of place and tired, just sad really. If they remove the "backstage at a studio" concept including Streets of America, LMA and BLT (not the DVC hotel the ride) they have to replace it with something. I see a StarWarsLand as more of an "extreme makeover" style refurb than a true expansion. You may not even add significant attraction capacity or the footprint of the park if you remove some and add something new in its place. With Avland atAK and the new night show you are building out the park and making it a full day park. You could classify this as a true finishing of an incomplete park over an expansion.

EPCOT is probably in the most need of a major refurb. Clean up what's there and reopen closed or neutered pavilions (I'm looking at you Figment). No need for an expansion. No need for a new country or a new ride pavilion. Just restore what you already have.

Anything done at MK is going to be to increase capacity like FLE. If the efforts at the other parks work guests should be more evenly spread out so some of the pressure would be relieved from MK. There are some terrific ideas out there for Tomorrowland and other parts of MK but they should be on the back shelf as the issues are worked out at the other parks.

 

[ryan1]

I'd love for MGM to get some love. Sounds Dangerous is embarrassingly dated and should have been replaced years ago but it now needs to be incorporated into Star Wars. I love the Indy stunt show but, as you said, hasn't changed in over 20 years. I wouldn't mind if it got integrated into something Star Wars either. The backlot tour could be used for something else or it needs to be updated and there are a couple of buildings around the Pixar area that could be used better than they are. I haven't gotten to do the Captain Jack "show" yet so I wouldn't mind it staying a little longer but I would gladly see it go for a permanent ride or attraction.

I'm ok with EPCOT as it is except I'd like to see Wonders of Life used for something other than HGTV exhibits and the Energy movie needs updating. I don't know what you could use EO theater for so I'm ok with EO staying until something better comes along that isn't phineas and pherbs related. If they change it I'd like a more classic Disney addition. World Showcase could use a new country or a new ride intigrated into an existing country.

AK just needs more attractions. I don't want to see an Avatar land but since it seems like they are doing it no matter what I just hope that it is very detailed and immersive. I may have to actually watch the movie if they really do build it. I'd have rather them use a new/unique idea or a Disney centric idea for a new land instead of Avatar. Other than the dragon ride what was wrong with the mythical land portion that was originally proposed for the part? You could throw Hercules, Fantasia, even Robin Hood into a new land and it would be better fit IMO than Avatar.

 

[copcarguyp71]

Oh Ryan...if only you knew EPCOT circa 1996

 

[ryan1]

I was 15 in '96 so I know it and experienced EPCOT circa 1996 several times however I don't have the strongest of memories about it. I know its not at the heights it once was but I don't think its that bad. Sure Imagination Pavilion is a shadow of what it was and minus an entire floor and Living Seas has changed (I do prefer the original to the Nemo upgrade) but it could be a lot worse and what is left is still enjoyable.

 

[copcarguyp71]

Empty WOL, watered down SSE, UoE woefully forgotten, Test Track 2.0 (I am a fan) breaking down every bit as much as V1.0, Oddyssey laying empty like some forgotten stepchild, Imagination being less than 1/2 of what it was with the entire upstairs closed down and the post attraction area being so much less than it once was, a reheated 3D film from the 80's that took ZERO dollars for them to dredge up and foist upon us once again, Soarin in need of film restoration or even better; digital projection, The Living Seas an embarrassing overlay dumbing down a once great journey, dancing fountains that occasionally sync up with their now barely audible soundtrack and innoventions floundering around in the center not knowing what it's identity really is...everyone sees the parks differently but that is my own personal take on 1996 EPCOT versus today.

Edit: I owe you an apology Ryan...you look a whole lot younger than 32 so I assumed you had not been, sorry for that. In '96 I was 25 so I do think we saw it through different eyes.

 

[MarkTwain]

I want to give this thread a huge reply (or start a new one when I finish my 1.5 years of employment at the resort) but I think to a certain extent you're right. WDW is very much becoming a victim to its own size and to its own high attendance, but I don't believe that it was inevitable and is largely because of the way resort management has allowed it to happen. I am also a fan of the Tycoon series (more Zoo Tycoon but I've played Roller Coaster as well), and one limitation of the game is that you are ever the only person in charge of your park. When you double the size of your park, the game does not let you add a second person to help manage the other half with you. That's how a successful business would run, but it is how WDW has chosen not to. WDW has chosen to consolidate staffing, streamline operations, and reduce what it views to be inefficiencies among different locations (even when they might not be) that the needs of individual areas are lost.

A great example of this occurred to me when I visited Aulani this past summer. Everything at Aulani, from the complimentary notepads to the pens to the bathrobes to the bags given at checkout in the gift shops, had the Aulani name or logo. At WDW, these would say "Walt Disney World Resort" or worse, just DisneyParks. Imagine staying at say, Caribbean Beach and all the hotel room pens and notepads and gift bags at the resort just saying "Caribbean Beach," treating hotels like their own individualistic entity which just happen to be located in a larger resort complex. Almost unthinkable now. I began to suspect this was because as Aulani is neither in WDW or Disneyland, and therefore cannot be consolidated into either resort, it was allowed to control its own designs and manage its own levels of quality control. This is a privilege resorts like the Grand Floridian or Contemporary long ago lost when they were forced to share resources with every hotel resortwide. Each hotel could have been allowed to more carefully manage its own offerings, but WDW couldn't resist the opportunity to cash in on the savings from streamlining "inefficiencies".

Obviously this is about much bigger things than pens and gift shop bags but it's a good metaphor for how the larger problems of the resort are dealt with. Now imagine that WDW takes a similar attitude to maintenance teams, park operations, stores with unique/individual merchandise, etc. WDW has every option to specialize all of these things but it chooses not to. So, in a sense, yes, falling prey to its own size.

 

[copcarguyp71]

I want to give this thread a huge reply (or start a new one when I finish my 1.5 years of employment at the resort) but I think to a certain extent you're right. WDW is very much becoming a victim to its own size and to its own high attendance, but I don't believe that it was inevitable and is largely because of the way resort management has allowed it to happen. I am also a fan of the Tycoon series (more Zoo Tycoon but I've played Roller Coaster as well), and one limitation of the game is that you are ever the only person in charge of your park. When you double the size of your park, the game does not let you add a second person to help manage the other half with you. That's how a successful business would run, but it is how WDW has chosen not to. WDW has chosen to consolidate staffing, streamline operations, and reduce what it views to be inefficiencies among different locations (even when they might not be) that the needs of individual areas are lost.

A great example of this occurred to me when I visited Aulani this past summer. Everything at Aulani, from the complimentary notepads to the pens to the bathrobes to the bags given at checkout in the gift shops, had the Aulani name or logo. At WDW, these would say "Walt Disney World Resort" or worse, just DisneyParks. Imagine staying at say, Caribbean Beach and all the hotel room pens and notepads and gift bags at the resort just saying "Caribbean Beach," treating hotels like their own individualistic entity which just happen to be located in a larger resort complex. Almost unthinkable now. I began to suspect this was because as Aulani is neither in WDW or Disneyland, and therefore cannot be consolidated into either resort, it was allowed to control its own designs and manage its own levels of quality control. This is a privilege resorts like the Grand Floridian or Contemporary long ago lost when they were forced to share resources with every hotel resortwide. Each hotel could have been allowed to more carefully manage its own offerings, but WDW couldn't resist the opportunity to cash in on the savings from streamlining "inefficiencies".

Obviously this is about much bigger things than pens and gift shop bags but it's a good metaphor for how the larger problems of the resort are dealt with. Now imagine that WDW takes a similar attitude to maintenance teams, park operations, stores with unique/individual merchandise, etc. WDW has every option to specialize all of these things but it chooses not to. So, in a sense, yes, falling prey to its own size.

You know...it's funny you mention those things MT as I never really noticed them but you bring up some very valid and interesting points. Something as simple and visceral as a pad and pen with a resort name on it really does make one feel like a valued guest and also like you are staying somewhere special and unique. It goes along with theming really and the actual pride one feels of having chosen that specific resort and it also feels like come-uppins for all of the planning, scrimping and saving leading up to a vacation as (theoretically) epic as a WDW vacation. I really think it is a shining example of showing how our vacations have been getting homogenized over the years. Somewhere along the line we went from valued guests to cash laden cattle...and it happened so slowly we never noticed. Kind of like when a tree grows around a barbed wire fence over many years.

 

[ryan1]

Empty WOL, watered down SSE, UoE woefully forgotten, Test Track 2.0 (I am a fan) breaking down every bit as much as V1.0, Oddyssey laying empty like some forgotten stepchild, Imagination being less than 1/2 of what it was with the entire upstairs closed down and the post attraction area being so much less than it once was, a reheated 3D film from the 80's that took ZERO dollars for them to dredge up and foist upon us once again, Soarin in need of film restoration or even better; digital projection, The Living Seas an embarrassing overlay dumbing down a once great journey, dancing fountains that occasionally sync up with their now barely audible soundtrack and innoventions floundering around in the center not knowing what it's identity really is...everyone sees the parks differently but that is my own personal take on 1996 EPCOT versus today.

Edit: I owe you an apology Ryan...you look a whole lot younger than 32 so I assumed you had not been, sorry for that. In '96 I was 25 so I do think we saw it through different eyes.

I definitely agree that overall EPCOT is no where near its mid 90's high but I still think EPCOT is a fun park with some really good attractions/experiences. I can live with the Living Seas, even though they took out my two favorite things in the park (The pre-show movie and the Hydrolators), since they didn't do anything to the aquarium portion and it brought new traffic to the pavilion. I've only ridden TT 2.0 once but its seems to be basically the same ride. I can also live with EO since it kept the space occupied and not just let it sit empty.

WOL and UoE really need something done to bring traffic to that area of the park and something major needs to be done about Innovations. Mission Space is fine and looks good on the outside. Imagination and SSE are definitely down though. World Showcase is basically the same too but I miss the double decker buses.

No worries, 10 years is a big difference sometimes and my memories aren't as strong as I would like them to be of the glory days. A 25 year old me would remember a lot more than the 15 year old me.