Pin Trading Etiquette

[flynnibus]

And the fact that some of you are getting so worked up over it amuses me. Illegal? That was the funniest thing I've read all day, and that includes the story of Tim Tebow getting signed by the Eagles....

It's called buying counterfeit goods.. and passing them off as legitimate. Yes, when you are trading pins you you are trafficking in counterfeit goods.. which is a federal offense. Cited here for your 'laughing' - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2320

Trafficking includes transfer for personal gain.. which trading for another pin would include.

You may find it innocent and 'whats the big deal' - because you are putting your personal gain above anyone else. Imagine if you were paying more for something because you wanted the authentic thing.. and you found out later it was a fake. That is what you are exposing other people to.

By willfully turning a blind eye to the 'too good to be true' goods, you are selfishly putting your gain above others and causing harm to others by risking putting counterfeit goods into the main trusted distribution channels.

 

[flynnibus]

Disney could start to fix this by ordering in batches and when the number requested is finished take possession of the molds and destroy them

This is a problem for every company that does business in China. Even with complex products, or extreme care by the IP owner.. stuff like this still happens. It takes a lot of oversight to prevent, and most simply can't have eyes everywhere.

Factory rejects not being destroyed is always a problem... 'late night runs' where they factory simply makes runs they don't report... mold security.. copies... they all are angles that usually lead to unauthorized distribution.

Look at a company like Apple.. who is at the extreme end of control, oversight, and risk for the factories to lose if Apple booted them.. and stuff still gets out.

It's like trying to rid the world of cockroaches.. good luck with that

 

[flynnibus]

To chime in on what people do or shouldn't do, whose responsibility is it to manage if a pin is "real" or "fake"? The answer to the question is Walt Disney Corporation. CMs have and trade these so called "fake" pins. If WDW Corporation wanted to stop it, they would educate ALL CMs that have lanyards or have pins to trade. They would be educated in knowing what a "fake" pin is, what they look like, and how to identify them. This would cover all 100,000+ different pins world wide WDW Corporation have created. On top of that, they would be able to educate visitors on how/why the pin they are trading is fake.

Because WDW is not doing this, then the responsibilty lies on their end.

They do... but you are setting an impossible standard and saying 'because they don't meet my criteria, they do nothing'.

I agree Disney should be doing more to weed out the unscrupulous traders... but that is a delicate problem when you are dealing with trying to ID and label customers as good or bad customers.

If Disney wants to fix this, bring production back to the US, take ownership of authentication, and control it. Since they are not doing that, and they cannot guarantee to my daughter she is getting an authentic pin, why should she be handcuffed doing the same?

Again.. setting impossible standards and then tearing people down for not meeting them.

 

[flynnibus]

I fdound this hilarious. You do realize it is not a crime to purchase an item that is identified as "authentic"?

While there is a sliver of truth in your claim.... the dismissal of the other side is just as wrong. Simply labeling something 'authentic' does not give everyone some magic CYA making you immune. And when you are trading, you are not just buying goods... you are trafficking them yourself.. now YOU are the one selling/trading/distributing counterfeit goods.

 

[draybook]

It's called buying counterfeit goods.. and passing them off as legitimate. Yes, when you are trading pins you you are trafficking in counterfeit goods.. which is a federal offense. Cited here for your 'laughing' - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2320

Trafficking includes transfer for personal gain.. which trading for another pin would include.

You may find it innocent and 'whats the big deal' - because you are putting your personal gain above anyone else. Imagine if you were paying more for something because you wanted the authentic thing.. and you found out later it was a fake. That is what you are exposing other people to.

By willfully turning a blind eye to the 'too good to be true' goods, you are selfishly putting your gain above others and causing harm to others by risking putting counterfeit goods into the main trusted distribution channels.

You're assuming that the pins are "fake" and you're assuming that I know they are fake. Just because some blow hards on a fan forum say they are fake doesn't make it so. If you want to fly down here and give me some proof of their legitimacy then I would gladly make sure that they never see another person's lanyard. Of course, we don't trade any more so that won't happen again but you get my drift.


One thing that I find funny is the soapbox preaching about using authentic pins and yet none of the holier than thou folks have yet to explain how you can tell the difference between authentic and fake.

I'd love to know the difference.

 

[AndyS2992]

You're assuming that the pins are "fake" and you're assuming that I know they are fake. Just because some blow hards on a fan forum say they are fake doesn't make it so. If you want to fly down here and give me some proof of their legitimacy then I would gladly make sure that they never see another person's lanyard. Of course, we don't trade any more so that won't happen again but you get my drift.


One thing that I find funny is the soapbox preaching about using authentic pins and yet none of the holier than thou folks have yet to explain how you can tell the difference between authentic and fake.

I'd love to know the difference.

Post images of the backs of your collection and we can gladly tell you But you won't do that.

Also we have posted several links and videos on how to tell a fake but obviously you haven't been paying attention so I shall link you to a helpful video again:



If you did buy them in cheap lots on ebay, as you suggest, they will be fake.

If you were unaware at the time, then whatever, you were duped and not necessarily your fault but now you know.

 

[flynnibus]

You're assuming that the pins are "fake" and you're assuming that I know they are fake.

Putting your head in the sand is not plausible deniability. You've defended the practice over and over here not on the jist of 'I didn't know' but on a platform of "its my prerogative" and feeling you can hide behind what the seller labels things... regardless of how outrageous the label may be. Doesn't work that way in the real world... you don't get to put common sense away when it suits you.

One thing that I find funny is the soapbox preaching about using authentic pins and yet none of the holier than thou folks have yet to explain how you can tell the difference between authentic and fake.

I'd love to know the difference.

1 - Read the thread - yes, it has been discussed
2 - It hasn't mattered to your position at all... you didn't care if they were fake or not when bolstering you'll do whatever you want

 

[draybook]

Instructional video. I'll post a picture of a pin tonight when I get home so you guys can quit foaming at the mouth.

You know, I had a nice long reply for you, @flynnibus but honestly, I'm just plain tired of your self righteousness and condescending attitude towards not just me but many other posters. You keep thinking in your head that you're Jesus, but at least I won't have to read your drivel any more.

 

[flynnibus]

Classic... "I can't handle the truth.." so

People want to be all 'f you all I do what I want' and not face the consequences of how it impacts others because it would get in the way of their selfish behavior. People have made it clear what they value... ME ME ME

 

[jakeman]

I think we all know that it's widely considered that counterfeit pin trading is the gateway counterfeiting to other things...sports memorabilia, comic books, civil war bullets, paintings...

SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

 

[AndyS2992]

I think we all know that it's widely considered that counterfeit pin trading is the gateway counterfeiting to other things...sports memorabilia, comic books, civil war bullets, paintings...

SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

Well given that it is the children who will suffer when they find out their pins are worthless fakes down the road and are crushed by the disappointment and then resent their parents for tricking them in to believing they had real pins when they don't, I think we should all think of the children

 

[draybook]

My kids couldn't care less if the pins are "real" or not. It's the memories they have of trading with the CM's and sometimes other guests that they value.

 

[AndyS2992]

My kids couldn't care less if the pins are "real" or not. It's the memories they have of trading with the CM's and sometimes other guests that they value.

That's great, it's just a shame they aren't doing it legitimately (Based on previous comments). Perhaps when they are older they may become serious collectors and replace all their worthless scrap with the real deal and feel much better for it, who knows. I assume the reason they don't care is because like most people, they aren't even aware that fake pins exist. I'd hate to think they have a cherished rare limited edition pin in their collection which is actually a worthless fake clone. That will disappoint them.

 

[JillC LI]

Like a lot of other things at Disney, the value of the pins is mostly emotional, based on the memories you created when you bought or traded for them. You can't really be "taken advantage of" in this situation, not unless you're trying to create a rare pin collection as some kind of financial investment. If you like the way the pin looks, had fun trading for it and will smile when you see it when you get home after your trip, that's pretty much all you need to get out of the transaction.

^^^THIS.

Well given that it is the children who will suffer when they find out their pins are worthless fakes down the road and are crushed by the disappointment and then resent their parents for tricking them in to believing they had real pins when they don't, I think we should all think of the children

I honestly think that the children are more interested in an emotional connection to the design of a pin rather than its value, and they enjoy the process of trading more than they care whether it is "real" or fake." I know that my kids (who are now "too old" to pin trade), look with affection on the handful of pins in their collections and couldn't care less if they are authentic.
Serious pin traders, as the poster above noted, are a different story.

 

[Otterhead]

Serious pin traders, as the poster above noted, are a different story.

Those guys with the huge pin binders who sit at the central Epcot pin booth are scary. They've taken a fun hobby and made it an Investment, and look down on anyone just trading for fun. When I went during Epcot's 30th, I wore a homemade retro-Epcot shirt and the CM next to the booth stopped me. She offered me their ultra-rare CM-only Epcot 30th Anniversary pin for trade and said "I think you'll appreciate this a lot more than the "pros" who just want to sell it on eBay." I have no idea what it's worth. I'm just happy to have it.

 

[tribbleorlfl]

I think we all know that it's widely considered that counterfeit pin trading is the gateway counterfeiting to other things...sports memorabilia, comic books, civil war bullets, paintings...

SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

I was going to say, this discussion reminds me a lot of what started happening to the autograph market 20-25 years ago. Blatant forgeries have gotten so bad that the only way you can be sure you have an authentic signature is by obtaining it directly from the celebrity.

 

[flynnibus]

Perhaps when they are older they may become serious collectors and replace all their worthless scrap with the real deal and feel much better for it, who knows

Please temper your expectations that any of this stuff will be 'worth something' in the future. Anything produced in the consumer age as 'collectible' is not going to be.. because people will have saved it and its likely mass produced anyways. The collectibles come from those things that are rare AND desirable. If they are made to be collectible and everyone is buying them with that in mind... it won't stay that way. See baseball cards, beanie babies, etc. Collect these things for your enjoyment, please spare yourself thinking they will be an investment.

 

[flynnibus]

I honestly think that the children are more interested in an emotional connection to the design of a pin rather than its value, and they enjoy the process of trading more than they care whether it is "real" or fake.".

Which is where it SHOULD be IMO... but with the price points Disney sets and their manipulation of availability.. Disney fed the idea these should be 'valuable' and hence the consequences that come along with that.

 

[tribbleorlfl]

Not all pins on ebay are knock offs. It is usually pretty easy to tell which are and which aren't... Some of those pins that seem to cheap to be good were just overstocks that got marked way down in the Disney outlet and someone bought them up to resell, at a price much lower than the price in a Disney park but still at a price that allows the ebay seller a profit... Frankly that is the only way to let your kids trade pins because you never know what one they are going to want and the thought of them trading some expensive limited edition pin for a low end pin would make me cringe.

We're not at all big pin collectors or traders, but we do typically bring a few with us in the parks just in case we run across a pin we like. We often buy these traders at the Character Warehouse as you mentioned.

That being said, the cheapest I've ever seen a pin get at CW is $1.99 (just saw a few at this price point Saturday). Dealers at cons and swap meets typically sell the common ones for $20/dozen of your choice.

I'm not going to go as far to say that all of the 4200+ listings of "Disney pin lot" available right now are counterfeits. It's entirely possible there are collectors that are just trying to blow out excess inventory to make room for newer pins.

However, when a product is being sold 80% less than the discount retail price, I don't find it plausible (or reasonable) for someone to purchase that item without some reservations of its authenticity or origins. That is the very definition of "too good to be true."

 

[thomas998]

We're not at all big pin collectors or traders, but we do typically bring a few with us in the parks just in case we run across a pin we like. We often buy these traders at the Character Warehouse as you mentioned.

That being said, the cheapest I've ever seen a pin get at CW is $1.99 (just saw a few at this price point Saturday). Dealers at cons and swap meets typically sell the common ones for $20/dozen of your choice.

I'm not going to go as far to say that all of the 4200+ listings of "Disney pin lot" available right now are counterfeits. It's entirely possible there are collectors that are just trying to blow out excess inventory to make room for newer pins.

However, when a product is being sold 80% less than the discount retail price, I don't find it plausible (or reasonable) for someone to purchase that item without some reservations of its authenticity or origins. That is the very definition of "too good to be true."

But by your own definition of 80% being too good to be true, you are breaking your own rule when you buy pins at 1.99 at CW as some pins will retail for 20 or more, so a 1.99 pin could very well be below your 80% rule.