They will never lower prices there just will be more promos, ie free dinning. MK will always be miserable I think even more so with the increased cost. Guest are now more motivated to stay all day to get more bang for their buck, not paying for hoppers or LOS tickets. We also forget about offsite guests who may do only one day at MK.
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Park Attendance goes down, so Prices go up?
- Thread starter AVeryDifferentDisneyDad
- Start date
erasure fan1
Well-Known Member
Yup. I realized this a while ago. I've been once since 2016. And we were yearly for the last 20 some years up to that point. We missed twice for 2 of my kids birth. But mister Bobby I doesn't care in the least.
The biggest problem I see is the lack of expansion. From a ride standpoint, the capacity has basically been the same for 20yrs. Plus like you said, reduced entertainment, you have a recipe for suck. And a lot of the rides that they replaced are a lower capacity as well. So you can't expect to have attendance grow over the years, but never expand the parks. Magic Kingdom will finally increase capacity since 20k closed once Tiana opens. That's just plain sad.
NickMaio
Well-Known Member
Yupers its sad.
How does Tiana increase capacity?
Nevermore525
Well-Known Member
Splash closed before Tron opened, so when Tiana’s opens the net result is an increase in capacity.
Still down some attraction venues, specifically with greater accessibility.
updownandsideways
Member
There is two main competitors Universal and Disney with a couple outliners SeaWorld six flags etc. There is no one place like Disney world it's size creates a unique advantage. Universal is catching up but it will take a while I wish Universal kept the theme of living the movies
jloucks
Well-Known Member
While you can add some capacity to WDW, it will make little difference.
From what I have observed WDW operates under an induced demand model. That is, even if you doubled, tripled, or quadrupled capacity, the customers would simply see the new supply and immediately consume it.
WDW is a global destination and there are 8 billion people looking for things to do. (granted, 90% of those cannot afford WDW, let alone airline tickets to get there). ...but what is 10% of 8 billion? Lots, lol.
From what I have observed WDW operates under an induced demand model. That is, even if you doubled, tripled, or quadrupled capacity, the customers would simply see the new supply and immediately consume it.
WDW is a global destination and there are 8 billion people looking for things to do. (granted, 90% of those cannot afford WDW, let alone airline tickets to get there). ...but what is 10% of 8 billion? Lots, lol.
jloucks
Well-Known Member
WDW does dynamic pricing?! I don't think they are doing it right.
...like I would know more than a fleet of Mouse accountants
erasure fan1
Well-Known Member
When it opens, that will be the moment capasity increases. Technically Tron is the ride that increases it. But it won't happen until Tiana opens up. New fantasy land while adding 2 new rides, technically replaced Snow Whites scary adventure and 20k. And if we really want to get technical, we lost stitch so we are still at a break even since 20k closed. But I was trying to be nice. I'll give them the 2nd dumbo spinner. Lol
WDW does dynamic pricing?! I don't think they are doing it right.
...like I would know more than a fleet of Mouse accountants
In their mind they do. MK is different price than the other parks.
AP price differences. Just ten plus years ago, it was just one type of AP. Not tiers.
In park options have demand based pricing too. Restaurants are going to charge differently depending on season and time of day for same food. Genie Plus of course changes on demand too.
A lot of it is not obvious now that has been around a bit.
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SouthDakotaTink
New Member
I hear this argument alot and to some extent it is true but at the same time what is the other option?? Just let the parks stay the way they are?
Disney can and should offer lots of different capacity. I don't hear anyone saying they are booking a trip to Disney based on the Moana water feature in Epcot. They need a mixture of different types of rides and should be adding all on a regular basis. And again there are other options that they have cut that impact capacity like parades, shows and streetmosphere. Those are quicker/easy wins that will eat some people up that help. Also, running the rides at a higher capacity would help along with keeping up better with maintenance. Finally they could increase the hours again so that the crowds are better dispersed through the day.
I don't think this is rocket science. This is pure and simple that the executives don't care about the customer and I would think at some point that is going to be a losing thought process. I don't think Disney will ever really go under but it already isn't the gold standard it was before. There is no reason someone else (another company) can't create another Disney in the US and blow up their whole model.
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Disstevefan1
Well-Known Member
I would like to keep an open mind on this one.
WDW please quadruple the capacity of the parks and lets put this theory to the test.
Worst case, we have quadruple the capacity.
Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
Staffing isn't helping but it is indeed Fastpass that is causing it. I went for years when there was no fastpass and it never was like it is now. Even the attractions that still have massive ridership ratios now have lines. It started immediately after the Original Fastpass was initiated and it has only gotten worse. Do more people go now, probably but there are more parks now then there was so the increased attendance should have not been affected. Now with what is called declining attendance, there are still lines in all four parks.
It stands to reason and is scientifically valid that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you take two lines and speed up one you are going to slow down the other automatically. There is no mystery to this. The way it has always been set up there is only a few that will get in the fast lane and all the rest will wait for them to be taken care of first. I remember the old lines and they appeared long, but if you joined a line it was first come, first served and it moved almost constantly. There never was a feeling that you were second class, when you got to the front of the line you were the next to experience that attraction. You were not stopped while 10 minutes worth of riders got there late and walked right in front of you. It never really worked, it was a dog and pony show. Because you might have gotten a Fastpass for one attraction you probably did save time. You lost the time that you saved plus more as soon as you had to go to a standby line because they either ran out of Fastpasses or you couldn't afford one. It was always a bad idea for the park guest, but they lead you to believe that you saved all kinds of time and you were just being conned. The time you saved on one ride you more than made up for on the one that you had to standby to see.
I suppose if you decided that you would only see the ones you had a fastpass for then you were fine with that. Personally, when I went to WDW I wanted to see everything that was there and before FP I could. Not anymore. It only takes one CM to point a finger and tell you which stanchion to stand in or where the closest restroom is located.
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This is basically the parks version of trickle down economics. Pro corporate bs that people parrot because they are stupid. The reason why Disney has this narrative parroted by idiots is because they have out of control budgets and have used price raises to cover their incompetence and convinced people that this was somehow part of a grand plan. I mean we know that Disney uses the US parks as a piggy bank to cover losses elsewhere.
True expansion threatens to spread out crowds which would hurt Disney's ability to monetize lack of capacity and raise prices as much which they have had an addiction too.
There isn't some magic fairy that gifts people money to suddenly afford Disney at these prices because they opened a few more rides. The actual "induced demand" is making money on increased volume long term by offering deals or incentivizing new and repeat customers because Disney wants to grow the size of the resort and customer base.
Universal Is building a whole new park because the data says Disney has underbuilt so much the demand is there for the taking l
Tha Realest
Well-Known Member
Back of the envelope tells me the increased capacity from Tron is washed out by the never replaced Stitch?
Tha Realest
Well-Known Member
Supply and demand can be monkeyed with. At some point, I think TPTB realized there was a ceiling on their likely attendance, without a reliable floor (see 9-11 and the Great Recession). That huge investments in additional experiences aren’t guaranteed or reliable. While attendance may ebb and flow, the need for Wall Street and the C-suite to see YOY growth remains. How do you accomplish this without the huge increment required by building more?
You introduce variable pricing, and charge more for those who actually show up. Look at how much more expensive everything across the board is (tickets, rooms, add-ons, food, and now LL and G+) while they’ve cut drastically various benefits (DME, live entertainment, etc). It’s aggressive ways to adapt to slowed or stagnating attendance while trying to keep the profits sustainable. Even these aggressive discounts or promotions that seem to be geared towards inducing attendance look funny in the light (free dining - if you purchase a vastly expensive and inflated room +ticket package).
You introduce variable pricing, and charge more for those who actually show up. Look at how much more expensive everything across the board is (tickets, rooms, add-ons, food, and now LL and G+) while they’ve cut drastically various benefits (DME, live entertainment, etc). It’s aggressive ways to adapt to slowed or stagnating attendance while trying to keep the profits sustainable. Even these aggressive discounts or promotions that seem to be geared towards inducing attendance look funny in the light (free dining - if you purchase a vastly expensive and inflated room +ticket package).
John park hopper
Well-Known Member
Goofyernmost hit the nail on the head I too remember when everyone was treated equally you paid you admission and got in line and the lines moved quickly you got to the head of the line and you were next. Well Disney saw a way to monetize ride times pay extra and you go to the head of the line which in my opinion sucks
SouthDakotaTink
New Member
I think we agree more than we disagree. Yes, Fastpass is a HUGE impact on lines for everyone not in the Fastpass lane. I 100% agree with you on this. I actually went to Disney in early October in 2020 (I was in Orlando for Universal and added a few days at Disney) since I couldn't go on my European vacation and not having FP was great for the lines. They were consistently moving and it just made it more pleasant (except for being stuck outside for most of the lines with the social distancing).
Additionally I agree with the fact that it adds time to everyone unless you are just going on rides that you have a Fastpass for. I also chuckle internally whenever someone says their family can't wait as they have little kids (and yes I know this is really true for some) but for many years there wasn't an option to not wait so obviously families have survived.
My point though is that the lines are exacerbated by the other items - staffing, lack of new ride capacity, parades, streetmosphere, shows. Without the extra attractions the lines are just that much longer making the problem worse. Add to that not running attractions at high capacity (for example using all the elevators in ToT or all the trains on RnR) compounds the issue further.
It is all these things working together to make an already not great situation downright terrible.