Nw Resale Restrictions as of Jan 19th

[Crafty]

I agree. Most people compare DVC to something like buying a beach house and say the house is an investment (hopefully it goes up in value) while a DVC contract eventually has to go to zero value.

I consider all of your examples investments as well. Even if a product has a terminal value of zero, as long as it more than paid for itself in savings it’s an investment. Just a different way to look at things.

The word investment means a lot of things. Most people think of money. I have no idea if my DVC is saving me money. It is costing me a fortune in souvenirs, eating, tickets, and up charge events. Don’t ever mention maintenance fees around me! I can get ugly.

If we didn’t own DVC we probably wouldn’t go to Disney much at all. I like to go to WDW. I feel cramped in hotel rooms.

Has DVC been a good investment? Well, we have four trips planned this year. We have Gold APs. We are staying in 2 bedrooms. It seems like my investment is paying off.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

I kinda view inventory available into the 7-month window as "less desirable". Do you have any anecdotal information on availability of bungalows? [note: I want to be clear that I don't hold an extremist position on the bungalows, just that I'm concerned about people not booking them]

We’ve stayed at the bungalows for short F&W/W&D trips. Never considered this option until we were trying to book at the 7mo window 3yrs ago and there were no DVC 2BR anywhere we’d want to stay (ie anywhere other than SSR where we own points from AGES ago). Bungalow was the only thing available, and we have a bunch of SSR points, so we booked it and splurged. (We could have rented out the points and used cash to book a regular reservation, but we thought the bungalows would be fun to try and so went for it.)

Every year since, bungalows have still been available at 7mo... even at 3mo or less, we’ve noticed. By the time we check in, we have had no option to move from the bungalow assigned prior to check-in — all booked up by then, we’ve been told.

So there’s your anecdotal evidence for the day.

I think that generally, direct buyers want to stay at their home resort, so I'm less worried about their booking behavior.

Perhaps... we bought at BLT to stay at BLT. But years earlier, we bought at SSR because that’s all they were selling (didn’t consider resale). We’ve stayed at SSR ONCE, before buying — a long weekend just to be sure we’d be ok with staying there if we had absolutely no choice.

For me, solar PV is like that - it's a capital expenditure that yields "free" electricity for 25 years and then ends with zero or slightly negative value. 10 year breakeven.

Agreed. You’re pre-paying today to get something cheaper in the future. It’s a good “investment”/use of funds this way IF AND ONLY IF you’d be traveling and spending that money on trips either way, and you figure out your own break-even point based on your planned usage.

 

[EOD K9]

I'm going to step up and take the blame for this. During the DVC Member cruise I had inquired about this in a roundabout way. I asked the general question of if resales would limit you to particular resorts and he said no. I'm starting to think the Member Cruise is their way of gathering intel and rumors from their members.

 

[GoofGoof]

I'm going to step up and take the blame for this. During the DVC Member cruise I had inquired about this in a roundabout way. I asked the general question of if resales would limit you to particular resorts and he said no. I'm starting to think the Member Cruise is their way of gathering intel from and rumors from their members.

In that case next year can you ask if we can have free park tickets going forward?

 

[Lensman]

So there’s your anecdotal evidence for the day.

Thanks!!

Perhaps... we bought at BLT to stay at BLT. But years earlier, we bought at SSR because that’s all they were selling (didn’t consider resale). We’ve stayed at SSR ONCE, before buying — a long weekend just to be sure we’d be ok with staying there if we had absolutely no choice.

If you're buying direct and they're selling a resort that you don't want, is it still possible to request and even wait list for a resort and a use year for an older resort that they're not actively marketing? I have some vague recollection of my friend's representative saying that she could either buy at VWL or at the older BWV or even OKW with me, but it was a long time ago.

 

[Crafty]

Yes. That is what Disney does with the contracts they take in ROFR. You might be on a waiting list.

A couple of years ago we bought 25 pts at OKW so that we could buy and sell our resales without losing any benefits. It is now 75 points, I believe.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

If you're buying direct and they're selling a resort that you don't want, is it still possible to request and even wait list for a resort and a use year for an older resort that they're not actively marketing? I have some vague recollection of my friend's representative saying that she could either buy at VWL or at the older BWV or even OKW with me, but it was a long time ago.

It’s been a while for me as well (!!) but that’s my recollection. Back when we bought SSR, we wanted to buy right in and were looking for a lot of points. Nothing else was available and we didn’t want to wait for a long time to piece enough points together elsewhere. At the time, it was easier to book other locations at 7mos, and while the kids were young we could travel at off-peak times... back when they were REALLY off-peak!

Now we travel during race weekends or when kids have days off school; add in Disney reducing seasonality, and the 7mo window is increasingly of questionable use to us. That’s why we were thinking Riviera at first. Now, with these restrictions it’s not so attractive. We figure for a while, we may actually be able to get Riviera at 7mos, so we’re hanging tight for the moment.

 

[GoofGoof]

Thanks!!



If you're buying direct and they're selling a resort that you don't want, is it still possible to request and even wait list for a resort and a use year for an older resort that they're not actively marketing? I have some vague recollection of my friend's representative saying that she could either buy at VWL or at the older BWV or even OKW with me, but it was a long time ago.

You can buy any resort, even the ones officially listed as “sold out” if they have points available from either RoFR or foreclosures. There is a wait list for some of the more popular resorts and last I heard they stoped taking wait list requests for BC and Grand CA.

 

[correcaminos]

I kinda view inventory available into the 7-month window as "less desirable". Do you have any anecdotal information on availability of bungalows? [note: I want to be clear that I don't hold an extremist position on the bungalows, just that I'm concerned about people not booking them]

"Less desirable" and " Not actually built to be occupied?" are not the same or even close to the same thing. So not quite sure why you quoted me talking to someone who is very sour on bungalows thinking they'll never be used. I'm not sure what anecdotal evidence you would like though as I already stated they book to average capacity. It means they will show 1 not being used and it will be at average capacity. Less desirable is also relative.

I have stayed and will again though lately our group is not such that they are the best for staying (the 2nd bedroom isn't all that large to use the murphy bed) When we booked, they were available at 7 months but not long after. The week we went, they were booked solid.

I think that generally, direct buyers want to stay at their home resort, so I'm less worried about their booking behavior. I worry a little about resale buyers of big Poly bungalow contracts (or once-every three years Poly bungalow contracts) buying and then staying elsewhere. This would put more pressure on the more desirable resorts inside the 7-month window. Resold SSR contracts are the same way - resale buyers are pretty obviously choosing those contracts because they're the cheapest and they're hoping to get in at other resorts in the 7-month window. It's one of my hypotheses that Disney is trying to prevent these people from using their points at Riviera.

I also wonder how much owners change their behavior over time. I could see people going every year for the first 5-10 years or so, then using banking to "upsize" to 2-bedrooms for years 7-12. Then once there are grandkids, you end up in the Grand Villas.

I think you would be highly surprised then. I am on far more active DVC groups than this one and while there are some who always stay at their home resort, I doubt most of the direct buyers who are new buy at a home to stay there. I cannot say how many Aulani owners I have met who have zero intention of staying there.

And yet again I think your concerns about approximately 1% total of all DVC resorts is a bit much. I know many who think how awful it is, but really the people who will have more issues booking would be those with PVB as a home. Not everyone else.

How people use DVC does change, but I am not sure everyone has as few points as you were eluding to or room type booking (GV for grandkids is a huge jump IMO). Though it seems the average contract size is shrinking, I don't think everyone can only afford to upsize to a 2 bedroom every other year. We manage 2 trips a year in only 1 and 2 bedrooms. Not everyone wants studios. DVC did make a huge mistake IMO to reduce redirect buy in to as low as it was. If you want a reason why studios are so popular look at that as well as ow many people rent now. Personally studios outside of PVB will never work for us because we like our space and we're only a family of 3 or 4. Plus 15 years in, grandchildren are a long way off. Some of us buy at a young age

 

[correcaminos]

Yes. That is what Disney does with the contracts they take in ROFR. You might be on a waiting list.

A couple of years ago we bought 25 pts at OKW so that we could buy and sell our resales without losing any benefits. It is now 75 points, I believe.

Yep, 75 for the membership extras now. Though you can still do 25 as a small add on at anytime. You can even do 3 25 point add ons to get your total to 75.

You can buy any resort, even the ones officially listed as “sold out” if they have points available from either RoFR or foreclosures. There is a wait list for some of the more popular resorts and last I heard they stoped taking wait list requests for BC and Grand CA.

Depends on the guide too. Some are more willing to do waitlists than others. I was offered a wait list for BCV not too long ago. VGF is actually harder to get than BCV though. But again I think it depends on a guide more too because for all of those who say "no wait list" I see reports of someone's guide doing it for them.

Wait time can vary too. We only waited a week for ours.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

How people use DVC does change, but I am not sure everyone has as few points as you were eluding to or room type booking (GV for grandkids is a huge jump IMO). Though it seems the average contract size is shrinking, I don't think everyone can only afford to upsize to a 2 bedroom every other year. We manage 2 trips a year in only 1 and 2 bedrooms. Not everyone wants studios. DVC did make a huge mistake IMO to reduce redirect buy in to as low as it was. If you want a reason why studios are so popular look at that as well as ow many people rent now. Personally studios outside of PVB will never work for us because we like our space and we're only a family of 3 or 4. Plus 15 years in, grandchildren are a long way off. Some of us buy at a young age

I’d be really interested in seeing stats on the demographic breakdown of DVC buyers, average points owned, age purchased, etc.

We’re more like you describe... bought around age 29, enough points to stay in a 2BR for 10 days every year off-peak, and about 13 years in, our kids are tweens. And that was just our first SSR purchase. We later bought enough points at BLT to stay 10 days per year, 2BR, over the summer (gets harder to miss school as they get older, so we needed more points — not less). We planned to eventually sell our SSR points but as the kids got older we got into running as a family, and now use those points for rD trips.

My sense from boards over the years is that we are atypical wrt number of points, and in booking primarily 2BR (occasionally a couple of 1BR, sometimes a 3BR or bungalow). As always, I’d LOVE to have a peek at Disney data... always so curious...

 

[correcaminos]

I’d be really interested in seeing stats on the demographic breakdown of DVC buyers, average points owned, age purchased, etc.

We’re more like you describe... bought around age 29, enough points to stay in a 2BR for 10 days every year off-peak, and about 13 years in, our kids are tweens. And that was just our first SSR purchase. We later bought enough points at BLT to stay 10 days per year, 2BR, over the summer (gets harder to miss school as they get older, so we needed more points — not less). We planned to eventually sell our SSR points but as the kids got older we got into running as a family, and now use those points for rD trips.

My sense from boards over the years is that we are atypical wrt number of points, and in booking primarily 2BR (occasionally a couple of 1BR, sometimes a 3BR or bungalow). As always, I’d LOVE to have a peek at Disney data... always so curious...

We actually bought before we had any children. So 15 years in, we are having to work around school schedules. When we bought, I would say we were more average with the number of points we had and how often we could go and such. Compared to what I read now, I think we're completely different than the average new buy.

I would be interested to to see the demographics of the type of people who have DVC. I have a feeling it is changed quite a lot since they started selling.

 

[Phonedave]

I ask myself, why aren't they just happy that someone else wants to buy a contract that the original owners, for one reason or another, do not want anymore? The original owners, wanting to sell, probably aren't in the market anymore to go to WDW and spend their money on park tickets, food, merchandise, etc....but yet someone else is willing to jump in and take their place...shouldn't that make Disney happy? Isn't there a certain give-and-take regarding profit and customer experience/happiness?

Sorry for the negativity here but I'm just really disappointed in them.

I am not making excuses, but the reason is because if I am DVC and I own 1,000,000 initial points at a resort, I need to sell those 1,000,000 points. If there are loads of people out there buying resale at other resorts because they figure they can use those points at the new one at 7 months, then my sales of the new resort hurt. Even worse is after maybe 2 years, when I have maybe 250,000 points left to sell, and the resale marker for that specific resort starts to get going. Now it is very hard for me as DVC to sell those remaining points.

 

[Lensman]

"Less desirable" and " Not actually built to be occupied?" are not the same or even close to the same thing. So not quite sure why you quoted me talking to someone who is very sour on bungalows thinking they'll never be used. I'm not sure what anecdotal evidence you would like though as I already stated they book to average capacity. It means they will show 1 not being used and it will be at average capacity. Less desirable is also relative.

I think I didn't make my intent clear. I believed you when you said that the bungalows were eventually booked close to capacity. I was just hoping you or someone could clarify the timeline - "not booked at 7 months" means something. "Booked at 3 months" means something different from "booked as a cash room as unrented inventory". Speaking of which, does anyone know the specifics of when DVCM is allowed to rent unbooked inventory and what happens with the proceeds?

I have stayed and will again though lately our group is not such that they are the best for staying (the 2nd bedroom isn't all that large to use the murphy bed) When we booked, they were available at 7 months but not long after. The week we went, they were booked solid.

Thanks, I find this kind of anecdotal first-hand data invaluable. (fwiw)

I think you would be highly surprised then. I am on far more active DVC groups than this one and while there are some who always stay at their home resort, I doubt most of the direct buyers who are new buy at a home to stay there. I cannot say how many Aulani owners I have met who have zero intention of staying there.

I guess I find this disappointing - though I'm not that surprised about Aulani owners. Nor would I be surprised about SSR owners or even OKW owners. But for the resorts like, to varying degrees, VGF, BCV, BWV, and BLT that often book up before the 7-month window opens, that has to be because owners are booking them, right? And I guess not everyone is listening to the sage advice about buying where you want to stay. (And is using that other advice to take advantage of the value of buying cheaper points)

And yet again I think your concerns about approximately 1% total of all DVC resorts is a bit much. I know many who think how awful it is, but really the people who will have more issues booking would be those with PVB as a home. Not everyone else.

BTW, I'm speculating about what their concerns might be, not expressing any personal concern.

Some observations:
1. Do the bungalow and cabin points represent 1% or is it just the bungalow points? Combined is it 2%?
2. I suspect that single digit percentages on the margin can tip the balance on these kind of finely tuned point systems.
3. I wonder what percentage of points are resold every year? Similarly I wonder what percentage of points is currently owned by resale owners vs direct buyers? I wonder if this is designed as a natural mechanism for maintaining a constant "home resort booking percentage" as a resort ages? Of course, it would only apply to the new resorts since the 14 original resorts are grandfathered-in to lifetime non-home-resort booking for resales.
4. As a contrary observation, it seems to me that resale buyers of resorts (other than SSR, OKW, and maybe VB and HHI) are looking to book their home resort quite a bit. After all, that's why they're paying the premium for VGF over SSR.

How people use DVC does change, but I am not sure everyone has as few points as you were eluding to or room type booking (GV for grandkids is a huge jump IMO). Though it seems the average contract size is shrinking, I don't think everyone can only afford to upsize to a 2 bedroom every other year. We manage 2 trips a year in only 1 and 2 bedrooms. Not everyone wants studios. DVC did make a huge mistake IMO to reduce redirect buy in to as low as it was. If you want a reason why studios are so popular look at that as well as ow many people rent now. Personally studios outside of PVB will never work for us because we like our space and we're only a family of 3 or 4. Plus 15 years in, grandchildren are a long way off. Some of us buy at a young age

Maybe I'm biased by my personal experience and several of the posters here who say that they bought-in with the plan of booking studios but over time have gotten "spoiled" and started booking 2-bedrooms. That's certainly what happened to us - bought enough for a couple of weeks in a studio during shoulder seasons, but ended up 5-10 years later booking 2-bedrooms. And with the newer resorts having more expensive point charts, going less frequently.

@helenabear, how are you doing? You don't seem your usual cheerful self... Hope you're ok. Feel free to PM me.

 

[correcaminos]

I think I didn't make my intent clear. I believed you when you said that the bungalows were eventually booked close to capacity. I was just hoping you or someone could clarify the timeline - "not booked at 7 months" means something. "Booked at 3 months" means something different from "booked as a cash room as unrented inventory". Speaking of which, does anyone know the specifics of when DVCM is allowed to rent unbooked inventory and what happens with the proceeds?


Thanks, I find this kind of anecdotal first-hand data invaluable. (fwiw)



I guess I find this disappointing - though I'm not that surprised about Aulani owners. Nor would I be surprised about SSR owners or even OKW owners. But for the resorts like, to varying degrees, VGF, BCV, BWV, and BLT that often book up before the 7-month window opens, that has to be because owners are booking them, right? And I guess not everyone is listening to the sage advice about buying where you want to stay. (And is using that other advice to take advantage of the value of buying cheaper points)


BTW, I'm speculating about what their concerns might be, not expressing any personal concern.

Some observations:
1. Do the bungalow and cabin points represent 1% or is it just the bungalow points? Combined is it 2%?
2. I suspect that single digit percentages on the margin can tip the balance on these kind of finely tuned point systems.
3. I wonder what percentage of points are resold every year? Similarly I wonder what percentage of points is currently owned by resale owners vs direct buyers? I wonder if this is designed as a natural mechanism for maintaining a constant "home resort booking percentage" as a resort ages? Of course, it would only apply to the new resorts since the 14 original resorts are grandfathered-in to lifetime non-home-resort booking for resales.
4. As a contrary observation, it seems to me that resale buyers of resorts (other than SSR, OKW, and maybe VB and HHI) are looking to book their home resort quite a bit. After all, that's why they're paying the premium for VGF over SSR.


Maybe I'm biased by my personal experience and several of the posters here who say that they bought-in with the plan of booking studios but over time have gotten "spoiled" and started booking 2-bedrooms. That's certainly what happened to us - bought enough for a couple of weeks in a studio during shoulder seasons, but ended up 5-10 years later booking 2-bedrooms. And with the newer resorts having more expensive point charts, going less frequently.

@helenabear, how are you doing? You don't seem your usual cheerful self... Hope you're ok. Feel free to PM me.

I'm not my usual cheerful self. I just lost my 1.5 year old beautiful cat to a crazy infection Saturday. We thought he might rebound on Friday but then he regressed horribly. Likely he had a lot of illnesses pre-rescuing that wore him down, but still it sucks.

Also, I suppose I am also taking some frustrations of a few posters elsewhere out on you guys too. There are a few I just want to say "stop the whining!!!!!!!" and cannot

I will try to go through some of the thoughts.

1. I think you will get totally different thoughts on not booking well. There is a catch-22 on this too. People want some left overs at 1-3 months but they also worry if a room isn't booked at 3 months. I'm in the I've been doing this so long camp that if something doesn't book 60 days out it doesn't bug me. I'd say at 3 months something is easier to get, but maybe not necessarily less desirable. More of "just have a lot of these so they are usually free" types (like SSR 1 bedrooms)

Here's the official I'm lazy and quoting answer to the rooms not booked question
"Breakage Income - As stated in the Condominium Documents, Disney Vacation Club Management Corp. ("DVCMC) rents, during the Breakage Period, certain accommodations that have not been reserved by Members. The Association is entitled to receive, as breakage income, the proceeds of such rentals not to exceed 2.5 percent of the aggregate of the Condominium Operating Budget (total operating expenses less the sum of interest income and Member late fees and interest) and Capital Reserve Budget in each calendar year.
It's set at 60 days usually

2. Anecdotally you will find a mix of OKW owners who want only OKW (low points, large rooms, and condo feel) and who want anywhere else. That's our first home and I do enjoy staying there but we have stayed all over with those points too. We just like to try new things now and then. But I love it there. If I could only stay there I'd never complain.

3. Bungalow and cabin point combine? I cannot tell you. I do not have official numbers for either anymore due to the reallocations and I haven't seen CCV cabins done. And I realize I screwed up. They are 1 million total for the bungalows. I would guess about the same for the cabins. Right now DVC has roughly 70 million points. So the bungalows are 1/70th of all of DVC. So a bit off on my numbers, sorry.
SSR by comparison has about 14 million and Aulani 11.5 million. To me the 1 million of bungalows is a drop in the bucket and as DVC grows, their impact will be lesser for those who booking at 7 months.

I will also say I see more resale buying cheap, not location despite what so many of us try to say. At least buy where you don't mind staying all the time.

4. we've been all over with room sizes. Now I don't see us doing studios sans PVB (2 connecting unless maybe DH and I only and then maybe OKW, the others are all too small now). We do prefer king beds for us. If they ever improve the sleeper sofa we'd do more trips and 1 bedrooms, but for now 2 bedrooms are it for real trips over a couple of nights.

 

[GoofGoof]

Maybe I'm biased by my personal experience and several of the posters here who say that they bought-in with the plan of booking studios but over time have gotten "spoiled" and started booking 2-bedrooms. That's certainly what happened to us - bought enough for a couple of weeks in a studio during shoulder seasons, but ended up 5-10 years later booking 2-bedrooms. And with the newer resorts having more expensive point charts, going less frequently.

Here’s my story. Anecdotal of course, but I’m in the mood to share. When we bought in it was to exclusively book villas. When it’s just the 4 of us a 1BR and when we have others with us 2BRs. Some day I want to do a big family trip in a grand villa but I can’t stop using my points instead of saving them. My kids were pretty young when we bought in and we got spoiled staying exclusively in condos on various vacations with them. We stayed at a Hilton Vacation Club resort next to Sea World for 2 trips right before we bought in. The condo worked so well for us, but we really wanted to be on property (inside the bubble, magical, pixie dust, etc). I dsicovered the DVC resale market online and the rest is history. Since my kids went to bed way earlier than us it was great to have a separate room and balcony to hang out and enjoy a few adult beverages after they were down. Same thing in the morning. Get some cartoons going on the tv and sit outside with my coffee. It was like a mini adult vacation during the family vacation.

Now that my kids are older (9 and 12) they stay up as late as we do and we have stayed in regular hotel rooms a few times recently (Universal, Hershey Park, Jersey Shore) so I’m actually considering my first stay in a DVC studio at WDW on our next trip. This summer we will be staying at VGC for a few nights in a studio as well (rented the points). We will still probably get villas most of the time since we love ordering groceries and having a kitchen for breakfasts and snacks and having room to spread out but studios are in play now too. The opposite of starting with a studio and growing into a villa.

I think as @helenabear and others have said the popularity of studios is at least partially driven by the low point contracts sold as well as the rental market. I do hear people occasionally renting points for villas but the majority seem to be focused on the studios. Basically just a room in the same resort that’s cheaper than paying Disney cash for a deluxe hotel room.

 

[Phonedave]

Just to add to the anecdotal pile. I own 210 at SSR - 160 direct (ugh) and 50 resale as an add on.

I bought at SSR partially because that is what they were pushing at the time, and partly because I like staying there. That is not to say there are other places l like staying more, depending on the circumstance of a particular trip, but SSR is always good with me.

We seem to have fallen into that same "upgrade the room" trap. When I bought 160, I was thinking studio. Then when ti became 5 of us going at a time, it became 1BRs (that sleep 5). After a 2BR at OKW one year, we now have a hankering for 2BRs (We also like tree houses),.

About the only time we even look at studios is when we go for F&W. If we go for F&W it is just me and my wife (sometimes a set of close friends joins us - we are OK sharing a studio with them - they are essentially family to us). We only go for a long weekend, and a studio works just fin for the 4 nights we stay there.